Making New Friends

[Twoapenny]

Thank you Bonesie, your hugs make me smile

I'm rambling a bit as things are just occuring to me now and then.  I've already mentioned that no-one spends time with my son.  I home educate him because of his disability (it's much easier for him in a quiet, one to one environment) and I love it.  He's doing brilliantly and really enjoys himself, I've learnt loads since I started doing it and I just love being with him.  He's good company, very funny and still has that child's view of looking at things.  I think I've relived my own (crappy) childhood through him and it's really helped.  We're close and he's the only bit of my life that works - my personal relationships are not great with other people but with him I think I've got the balance right and he's turning into a really polite, well balanced young man - I just need to be able to say the same about myself (although if I start turning into a man that will be a whole other thread but you know what I mean).

Anyway - whenever I complain about being ill or tired the response I get from most people is that I should put him in school.  They just don't seem to understand that apart from school not being the best option for me, I love teaching him at home and I'd hate to stop doing it.  If he wanted to then of course I would but he loves it and I do ask him frequently if he wants to go to school and so far the answer has always been no.  So I never really understand why people think me stopping doing the one thing in my life that I love would make my life better.

But having just got off the phone with a friend, who has again suggested I put him in school (in the past she's suggested I send him to a residential school) the penny dropped - none of my friends actually like spending time with their kids.  I don't know why I haven't twigged this before, but it suddenly seemed really obvious.  Which perhaps does make more sense that I am liking spending time with these mums at activity groups; they at least are interested enough in their kids to take them to clubs and stay and help out.  So yes, I think I am starting to see where I've been going wrong, these are just people who are very different to me so can't understand why I like spending time with him.  Sorry for rambling on, it just helps to get it down while I'm thinking of it, thank you for reading xx

You're welcome, ((((((((((((((((((((Tupp))))))))))))))))))))))))

When I read about how these other mothers don't like to spend any time with their children, it made me wonder:   WHY did they become mothers in the first place?  Did they become mothers simply to LOOK GOOD to others while expecting the children to meet THEIR needs instead of the other way around?

I might be over-analyzing them.

Bones

Yeah Bonesie I know, it's funny, isn't it?  A friend of mine decided a long time ago never to have children, she says she's too selfish and likes doing her own thing too much.  I thought that was so brave of her, to just be honest about herself and not be pulled into the whole thing about children being 'normal' for everyone.  Someone else I know has two kids she does nothing but moan about, since they were babies.  Why bother?  I can understand one; you don't know what you're getting yourself into so having one and realising you don't like it I can see, but why then have another?  Seems crazy to me.  Poor kids.

[BonesMS]

Thank you Bonesie, your hugs make me smile

I'm rambling a bit as things are just occuring to me now and then.  I've already mentioned that no-one spends time with my son.  I home educate him because of his disability (it's much easier for him in a quiet, one to one environment) and I love it.  He's doing brilliantly and really enjoys himself, I've learnt loads since I started doing it and I just love being with him.  He's good company, very funny and still has that child's view of looking at things.  I think I've relived my own (crappy) childhood through him and it's really helped.  We're close and he's the only bit of my life that works - my personal relationships are not great with other people but with him I think I've got the balance right and he's turning into a really polite, well balanced young man - I just need to be able to say the same about myself (although if I start turning into a man that will be a whole other thread but you know what I mean).

Anyway - whenever I complain about being ill or tired the response I get from most people is that I should put him in school.  They just don't seem to understand that apart from school not being the best option for me, I love teaching him at home and I'd hate to stop doing it.  If he wanted to then of course I would but he loves it and I do ask him frequently if he wants to go to school and so far the answer has always been no.  So I never really understand why people think me stopping doing the one thing in my life that I love would make my life better.

But having just got off the phone with a friend, who has again suggested I put him in school (in the past she's suggested I send him to a residential school) the penny dropped - none of my friends actually like spending time with their kids.  I don't know why I haven't twigged this before, but it suddenly seemed really obvious.  Which perhaps does make more sense that I am liking spending time with these mums at activity groups; they at least are interested enough in their kids to take them to clubs and stay and help out.  So yes, I think I am starting to see where I've been going wrong, these are just people who are very different to me so can't understand why I like spending time with him.  Sorry for rambling on, it just helps to get it down while I'm thinking of it, thank you for reading xx

You're welcome, ((((((((((((((((((((Tupp))))))))))))))))))))))))

When I read about how these other mothers don't like to spend any time with their children, it made me wonder:   WHY did they become mothers in the first place?  Did they become mothers simply to LOOK GOOD to others while expecting the children to meet THEIR needs instead of the other way around?

I might be over-analyzing them.

Bones

Yeah Bonesie I know, it's funny, isn't it?  A friend of mine decided a long time ago never to have children, she says she's too selfish and likes doing her own thing too much.  I thought that was so brave of her, to just be honest about herself and not be pulled into the whole thing about children being 'normal' for everyone.  Someone else I know has two kids she does nothing but moan about, since they were babies.  Why bother?  I can understand one; you don't know what you're getting yourself into so having one and realising you don't like it I can see, but why then have another?  Seems crazy to me.  Poor kids.

Poor kids is right!  We both know there are some crazy people who should NEVER be parents because of they way they use and abuse people!

Bones

[Twoapenny]

Agree, Bonesie! 

I thought I'd update this as there are a couple of people I have been trying to get to know better and it seems to be heading in the right direction.  I'm also trying to go into things with an open mind and just 'get to know' people rather than trying to force friendships.  I have been thinking about Hopsie's "Oh" advice on the other thread and I'm trying to take that approach and just see how things go and let them be what they will be.

Something else I've been thinking about - and it's very jumbled in my head so no idea how it's going to come across here - is how I think I've been putting my own dysfunctional blueprint of what a relationship constitutes onto other people in my life.  To try and give one example:

I've mentioned a friend who took four months to return my call.  I felt very hurt by this but didn't feel able to say anything.  I felt very resentful, felt that our friendship didn't mean anything (or at least didn't mean anything to her) and that no-one cared, no-one loved me, I'm so grim that no-one wants to spend time with me.

So - I know my mum's friendships are very black and white, very all or nothing.  I know that in order to be part of my mums inner circle you have to conform to a particular set of rules about what she considers okay.  There is no space for okay some of the time but a bit crap every now and then.  She can and does drop people (including her own children) at the drop of a hat.  She also blows friendships/relationships into much more than they are (my stepdad for example, love of her life whose love for her was so strong that they were forced to have an affair because they couldn't withstand the strength of the love, that sort of thing, complete nonsense, he screwed anything that moved and she was the only one daft enough to put up with it, his other wives threw him out.  More disgustingly, my T once suggested that a certain kind of man is more interested in the kids than the mum and that's a thought that I'd like to be able to say doesn't apply to him but can't).  She would always give anecdotes that showed how much people liked her, great stories about their times together, give big parties that everyone came to, yet when I 'came out' and started telling people that we no longer talk I was amazed at the number of people who told me they'd never liked her and were simply sociable in order to be polite.

Anyway, I can see now how I'm applying elements of all of this to my own relationships and friendships.  To use the four month delay friend example, if I'm honest about our contact over the years it has always been of a getting together for coffee nature.  We are not close friends, we haven't shared intimate secrets or spend huge amounts of time together, we don't know each other terribly well even though we've known each other for a long time.  I am realising that this is okay   I can have coffee buddies that are just that - a couple of hours every now and again for a chat and a catch up - it doesn't need to be any more than that.  I think she sees this in our friendship and I haven't.

I've also realised that my response to anyone's demand on my time is always to jump.  I put returning phone calls, emails, letters, visits, lunches etc ahead of everything else I need to do.  As a result of that I get more stressed (because stuff I need doesn't get done) I feel more resentful (because I'm putting other people's needs before my own) and I don't spend time with people I'd really like to because I am reactive more than I am proactive.  So I am realising that it is okay to be too busy for something and someone and I'm realising it is okay to spend time with people I really like rather than people I feel obliged to.

I think the other thing I need to work on is my response to rejection - seeing an unreturned call or letter as a massive slap in the face and reiteration of 'you're so bad your own family don't want you' and being more realiistic about other people's time and lifestyles (as being a factor in whether or not they ring) whilst of course keeping an eye out for those people who do only ring when they want something - more practise needed at saying no!

Anyway that's all kind of jumbling around in my head at the moment, I think things are clearing slowly and I'm moving in the right direction.

Thank you everyone as always for your thoughts and insights and just giving me the space to get all of this out of my head and down on paper (screen!).  Thank you xx

[sKePTiKal]

I'm realising it is okay to spend time with people I really like rather than people I feel obliged to.

Boy, this brings back what was a long conversation I had, with my friend Gaining Strength. She'd picked up and had a giant AHA about how "obligation" was working in her relationships... and I was having trouble "seeing" it, wrapping my head around it. I still think it was a huge breakthrough for her...

and I'm still working on the concept and what it means in my life. I think that relates to our different (sometimes) coping strategies... in that I'm  "runner" and a "hider" for the most part... never understanding that I really did have needs, that needs are OK (everyone's got 'em), and that those "obligations" aren't millstones around a person's neck - to be resented; they're part of the trust relationship... and commitment to the relationship and the "other person".

I guess that's why I've believed so strongly in the reality of an "unconditional" love force... and a lot of times I miss, how that exists even within things like limits, "acceptable social behavior", etc. It's always there... "informing" the functional application and use of those kinds of interpersonal "rules"... and even when it's OK to break the rules...

It's one of those things that kids learn by osmosis - seeing the examples, both in theory and applied... and if it doesn't exist in your world, you're almost always half a step out of sync. (Just reflecting in general here -- thinking of the boys.)

[lighter]

(((Tupp)))

[BonesMS]

Agree, Bonesie! 

I thought I'd update this as there are a couple of people I have been trying to get to know better and it seems to be heading in the right direction.  I'm also trying to go into things with an open mind and just 'get to know' people rather than trying to force friendships.  I have been thinking about Hopsie's "Oh" advice on the other thread and I'm trying to take that approach and just see how things go and let them be what they will be.

Something else I've been thinking about - and it's very jumbled in my head so no idea how it's going to come across here - is how I think I've been putting my own dysfunctional blueprint of what a relationship constitutes onto other people in my life.  To try and give one example:

I've mentioned a friend who took four months to return my call.  I felt very hurt by this but didn't feel able to say anything.  I felt very resentful, felt that our friendship didn't mean anything (or at least didn't mean anything to her) and that no-one cared, no-one loved me, I'm so grim that no-one wants to spend time with me.

So - I know my mum's friendships are very black and white, very all or nothing.  I know that in order to be part of my mums inner circle you have to conform to a particular set of rules about what she considers okay.  There is no space for okay some of the time but a bit crap every now and then.  She can and does drop people (including her own children) at the drop of a hat.  She also blows friendships/relationships into much more than they are (my stepdad for example, love of her life whose love for her was so strong that they were forced to have an affair because they couldn't withstand the strength of the love, that sort of thing, complete nonsense, he screwed anything that moved and she was the only one daft enough to put up with it, his other wives threw him out.  More disgustingly, my T once suggested that a certain kind of man is more interested in the kids than the mum and that's a thought that I'd like to be able to say doesn't apply to him but can't).  She would always give anecdotes that showed how much people liked her, great stories about their times together, give big parties that everyone came to, yet when I 'came out' and started telling people that we no longer talk I was amazed at the number of people who told me they'd never liked her and were simply sociable in order to be polite.

Anyway, I can see now how I'm applying elements of all of this to my own relationships and friendships.  To use the four month delay friend example, if I'm honest about our contact over the years it has always been of a getting together for coffee nature.  We are not close friends, we haven't shared intimate secrets or spend huge amounts of time together, we don't know each other terribly well even though we've known each other for a long time.  I am realising that this is okay   I can have coffee buddies that are just that - a couple of hours every now and again for a chat and a catch up - it doesn't need to be any more than that.  I think she sees this in our friendship and I haven't.

I've also realised that my response to anyone's demand on my time is always to jump.  I put returning phone calls, emails, letters, visits, lunches etc ahead of everything else I need to do.  As a result of that I get more stressed (because stuff I need doesn't get done) I feel more resentful (because I'm putting other people's needs before my own) and I don't spend time with people I'd really like to because I am reactive more than I am proactive.  So I am realising that it is okay to be too busy for something and someone and I'm realising it is okay to spend time with people I really like rather than people I feel obliged to.

I think the other thing I need to work on is my response to rejection - seeing an unreturned call or letter as a massive slap in the face and reiteration of 'you're so bad your own family don't want you' and being more realiistic about other people's time and lifestyles (as being a factor in whether or not they ring) whilst of course keeping an eye out for those people who do only ring when they want something - more practise needed at saying no!

Anyway that's all kind of jumbling around in my head at the moment, I think things are clearing slowly and I'm moving in the right direction.

Thank you everyone as always for your thoughts and insights and just giving me the space to get all of this out of my head and down on paper (screen!).  Thank you xx

((((((((((((((((((((Tupp))))))))))))))))))))))))))

I'm having difficulty finding words to express right now.  Many thoughts jumbling around in my own head at the moment.  I'll probably be posting a rant in the other thread as soon as I can work through what I'm thinking.

[Twoapenny]

Thank you everyone, Bonesie I hope that guy drops out of your life soon!  He seems to be a real a**e.  Sorry half of that post was in bold, I only meant to do the one sentence and obviously didn't switch it off again.

I've started re-reading Susan Peabody's Addicted to Love.  I read it before (I think someone on here recommended it) and it definitely applied to my male/female relationships.  There was a little quiz at the end to see how ready you were for a relationship and when I took it it basically said don't even think about it!  That was a while ago now, I took the test again and things have improved

I think I apply those things to all of my relationships, though.  I can see that my fear of abandonment is strong (she talks about projecting it on to others, so when someone doesn't respond to your call it blows up into this huge thing instead of being kept in perspective - that's me to a T).  She talks about fantasising in order to escape from reality - I do that a lot, more than is healthy (she talks about constructive steps to change reality instead of thinking about it) and she also mentions the matryr complex, which I think I do have with my son.

It's difficult with him.  On the one hand he genuinely does need someone with him 24 hours a day.  He does need a lot of down time (ie at home, quiet activities, not out and about having fun).  He does have a lot of trouble sleeping and all sorts of problems with food, noise, lighting, other people etc.  He is very sensitive and gets upset/worried about things (the cat, in particular).  So he does have a lot of genuine needs.  I have cut a lot of people out of his life because I felt they were abusive and not good people to be around.  I've been thinking about whether I've over done that and will keep thinking, but at the minute I'm thinking those people needed to be told they needed to modify their behaviour and shown the door when they didn't.  Equally none of them have ever tried to see him since which makes me think I did the right thing but I will keep mulling it over, perhaps I have been too harsh.

It does mean I have left him with no-one who spends any time with him.  I have felt very disappointed in friends who don't do anything with him, and my sister who no longer seems to bother with him.  I think I need to think about my role in this.  What I find difficult is that the people who are happy to look after him from time to time are people that I don't particularly want to be friends with.  So I feel it is wrong of me to take advantage of them in this way.  It feels quite a selfish thing to do.  Will keep thinking  on this one.

A lot of my friends from 'the old days' drink, smoke and take drugs.  It's not something I mind in other people but it's also not something I want as part of my life.  I find this one tricky.

I've been in contact with a couple of mums I know through an activity my son goes to.  They are nice people, have children with similar problems, live reasonably nearby.  So here's my stupid question of the day:

How do you make friends?  Is it just a question of hanging out, chatting and seeing how that pans out?  I've realised I've always had a 'special' best friend.  Eventually this turns to nothing and then I get a new one.  Peabody mentions all or nothing thinking - I think I have done this a lot.  So if you just want to be 'normal', do you just spend time together, see what happens and accept it as it is?  Sorry, I know that sounds ridiculous, I am approaching friendships from what I hope is a healthier place but I've realised I've never done it before and I don't know how to do it without all the drama and all the bells and whistles?!

[BonesMS]

Thanks, ((((((Tupp))))))))))).

With this particular individual, it's a bit more complicated since we are both involved with the same volunteer organization and I have no intention of being forced out.  To add to the complication, we have known each other for nearly 50 years because, at one time, he used to be my high school teacher when I was only 15 years old!  He was somewhat like this back during the 1960's.  He has become more obstinate with age!  (*shaking my head*)  From my perspective, this impacts not just me, it has a ripple affect and impacts MANY people in a negative way...which upsets me.

Bones

[Hopalong]

Hi Tupp,
I think it's amazing, and so hopeful, that you've figured out that some of the patterns that apply to dysfunctional romantic relationships can also haunt people trying to make healthier friendships. That is really huge.

So...for that reason, I'd recommend a book I often mention here, because it had a big impact for me, and I can see how it could translate to friendships, too. It's A Fine Romance by Judith Sills.

The thing that was a revelation to me was the idea of "practice" -- and I wonder if it'd be helpful to you.

love,
Hops

[Twoapenny]

Hi Tupp,
I think it's amazing, and so hopeful, that you've figured out that some of the patterns that apply to dysfunctional romantic relationships can also haunt people trying to make healthier friendships. That is really huge.

So...for that reason, I'd recommend a book I often mention here, because it had a big impact for me, and I can see how it could translate to friendships, too. It's A Fine Romance by Judith Sills.

The thing that was a revelation to me was the idea of "practice" -- and I wonder if it'd be helpful to you.

love,
Hops

Thanks Hopsie, will reread, I have due to an earlier recommendation from you and it is a great book.  It's funny the way self help books can say different things to you at different points in your life.  I'm re-reading a few at the minute and getting very different things from them now compared to what I got when reading a couple of years ago.  The things I'm working on at the minute (in terms of friendhsips) are

Being okay to have a different opinion.  I am so used to swallowing my thoughts and comments that I then get resentful that I didn't speak (particularly if I found what the person said offensive).  Equally I feel that if someone doesn't agree with me they 'don't like me', so I'm working on it being okay to be friends without having to agree on everything.

Letting the other person take responsibility for the relationship.  This is something Peabody mentions in her book and it really rang a bell this time, it's not down to me to do all the phoning, arranging, organising, other people can do this for themselves.  Another revelation for me!

Being real.  Something else that Peabody mentions, having to always look/sound/come across the best way.  I feel like that very much, if I'm having a crap time I tend to stay home rather than let people see me when things are bad.  I want to work on that - it's okay to be grumpy/sad/angry/bored/excited/lonely/vulnerable/whatever.  Gulp!  That's a big one!

Living in reality.  I spend huge amounts of time day dreaming about things being different, far more than I spend actually doing things to make life different.  I hadn't realised how much until recently.  So I'm working on that one, too.

Thank you, again! xx

[Hopalong]

I think you're doing some GENIUS introspection, Tupp!

Seriously. Kudos for a great deal of meaningful reflection,
which is showing so clearly your intelligence and determination
not to live on autopilot w/old reflexes.

You are LIGHT YEARS ahead of your FOO role models...
carry on! You are yes you are getting somewhere, this all
is real, and not wasted, and worth

CELEBRATING!Sincere H/T (hat tip)--and hugs,
Hops

[Twoapenny]

Aw, thanks, Hopsie

I am processing a lot at the minute.  I keep 'sensing' my stepdad - that hasn't happened for a long time - and I'm having to sleep with the light on.  I've been dreaming about my mum - last night in my dream she was really nice to me, when I got home she'd cleaned my house and told me I looked tired and that she'd make me a cup of tea.  I woke up crying, she'd never do that!  So I'm assuming the friends stuff is somehow linked to other old stuff and now is just the right time to sift through a bit more.

I'm having a literal clear out and spring clean as well, there's something about the house feeling lighter and easier after a good clear out.  I've been focusing on myself a lot and I'm amazed at how much I'm able to get done (and how much better I feel for doing it) when I'm not jumping to other people's tunes.  I've always felt I had too much to do and that's why I never had time to do what I really wanted; now I'm starting to think that other people have too much they want me to do and that's why I never get to do what I want   Have been eating nice meals, watching re-runs of shows I like, reading and writing, as well as lots of playing with my boy and clearing out the cupboards.  Things are good.

Thank you xx

[Hopalong]

I'm so happy to hear this, Tupp.
I love the method of dream interpretation that goes, we (or some element of ourselves) is EVERY element in our dreams.
(I guess that makes sense since dreams come from our own subconscious minds, where all the debris and such gets tossed around and processed in some way...)

So...that makes me see YOU as the loving, nurturing mother in your dream. Mothering yourself, genuinely.

(And the same you who is taking care of yourself is also doing that by respecting your wish for the comfort of the light on, when the stepfather memory makes a visit.
You know just what to do. That ghost will get bored and be off, soon, I bet.)

Sometimes with fearful things, we revisit them sometimes. And maybe it's just to measure our progress.
Light on? Very reasonable comfort choice.

xo
Hops

[Twoapenny]

Hi everybody,

I just thought I would update this a little as things seem to be going well

I have been trying to be more 'real' with people and actually talk about things, good and bad, and trying not to filter what comes out of my mouth (which is second nature to me).

A very nice by-product of this is that I'm receiving some really good advice, some nice comments (positive things!  Some people are positive!) and I am generally feeling better about the whole 'people' situation.

I also realised recently that I have a very odd sort of perfectionism thing going on, where the bar seems so high it stops me from bothering at all.  I think I've become almost paralysed by fear over the years regarding all sorts of things - my friends, my family, my son, my home, work, my lifestyle and so on.  I also realised how much I feel I shouldn't be allowed to have fun.  So over the weekend I've tried very hard to put that to one side and just go out and not worry about how I talk or how much I weigh, or whether or not I've 'earned' the right to wind down at the weekend.  It was quite hard work, to be honest, but I did enjoy myself and I am going to keep on that track and keep trying to change that.

I've also got into a really nice habit of meeting with a couple of mums from swimming each week for a coffee, they're both really lovely and funny and as it's coffee it's quite quick and therefore wasn't too intimidating to start off with (if you know what I mean).

I've also realised that I think I set the bar too high where friends are concerned - a bit all or nothing, they're either great or they're rubbish.  So I'm trying to work on that, just accepting people as they are and not stressing about what they 'mean' by their actions ("oh" as Hops would say)

Anyway I just thought I'd share that in case it helps someone else out xx

[BonesMS]

(((((((((((((((((((((((Tupp))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))