Do N's know when they are lying?

[Gettingmyvoiceback]

Hi everyone,

I only discovered this awesome site a few days ago and this is my first time posting.

I was raised by an N father who was physically violent with everyone in my family, i.e. myself, sister, brother and Mom.   My father has never admitted that he was ever abusive to any of us and in fact says that we are the ones who are lying if we ever bring it up.  This makes me start to think I'm the one who is crazy!!!!  

Anyway, my question is this:  Do N's know they are lying when they lie (but they just don't care) or do they actually believe what they are saying?

[bunny]

I'm sorry about your abusive father and enabler mother.  

N's partly know they're lying and partly are in major denial about it. This isn't the same as lying, it's rationalizing to a degree that most people would find incredible.

bunny

[bludie]

I think Ns sometimes know when they're lying but don't care how they're perceived or whether they're tagged as untruthful. During the breakup with my ex-N, I caught him in bold-faced lies (in writing) to my attorney. Either he wasn't keeping his story straight or he didn't care that I knew otherwise.

On the other hand, my ex-N had a highly-developed rationale for his behavior. I think the 'spin' he put on his account of things incorporated a slant or angle, half-truths, omissions and even bold-faced lies if it achieved his desired outcome. In crafting these rationales, I think my ex-N actually believed many of his concocted stories/truths. Since I'm told that much of an N's life is an image or illusion, it's not hard to fathom that he readily dismissed the truth to fill in the blanks with his own version of reality.

[Dawning]

I agree wholeheartedly with the responses.  

bunny wrote:

This isn't the same as lying, it's rationalizing to a degree that most people would find incredible.

Incredible is right.   The rationalization part is where I get the angriest.    Everyone in my family - with one possible exception does this - and I also grew up in an abusive environment.  I'm sorry, too, that you had to live through it.  I'm glad you've posted here too b/c most of us here want to overcome what we've internalized, change some of our unhealthy patterns and have a place to talk about what we've been through with others.  And survived and learned.  

This makes me start to think I'm the one who is crazy!!!!

I don't know if I am right about this but I think they have the intention of making us crazy because its much easier than taking responsibility for their actions.  So we are the scapegoats for their weakness.  And having said that, lying and rationalizing are the tools they use to get away with it.  And they can most easily get away with this with children.
I set up very firm boundaries with my my mother and grandmother and got out of their psychological shadow relatively recently.  Then, the dad-work began.  Its truly INCREDIBLE and amazing how much he rationalizes and lies.  And I've asked myself the same question as you originally asked in this post.  Thanks for bringing it up.

[ResilientLady]

think they have the intention of making us crazy because its much easier than taking responsibility for their actions. So we are the scapegoats for their weakness.

I so much agree with you, Dawning...   This tactic plus the guilt trip are the two favorite tools of my NMother. She is so subttle, I have to pay very much attention to discover it. And still every time I find about it, I cannot believe it... I hope one day I will get past the stage of astonishment  
The last time I saw that was no later than yesterday on the phone: when I said I had a very strong intuition/feelings about what she did that day (she finally said after 4 years of hiding the truth to my Dad that my older sis had a "C hepathite" -do not know the English for that.
On the phone, she tried to buy me into believing that I "made" her (from far away, with my "superpower"     ) say it to my Dad on this day.

Today I am finally laughing, but I cannot believe how she projects her guilt onto me... Just because she does not want to take responsibility for having hidden the truth to her husband for 4 years.

I guess I am so shocked b/c she uses this tool especially in the worst times...just when her guilt has reached its max..
The worst example was when I told her she may had been indirectly responsible (during apartment moving) for my Dad's heart attack. She responded to me : "Yes, you killed Daddy". I was very close to commit suicide at that time...

lying and rationalizing are the tools they use to get away with it. And they can most easily get away with this with children.

Also very true... And that's why it may be sometimes so hard   to take off these "bad introjects" even when we are adults now..

I set up very firm boundaries with my my mother

I think that is the only way to deal with it. So yesterday, when she tried to make me believe her lie, I laughed at her saying, "really, if you think I have such powers, you should really see a psychologist". I noticed that listening carefully, analyzing in termes of boundaries, and then setting firm boundaries by laughing at her was pretty effective.
Unfortunately I do not always see her lies/games (I am very gullible), and even when I "detect and fight" them, I still feel some guilt   ...

[longtire]

My Nwife has believed that I'm the crazy one in our relationship because to her I will suddenly turn hurt and angry for "no reason."  Of course, the reason was that she "blacked out" while doing or saying something so incredibly nasty, that the only way for her to live with herself is to have no experience of her actions.  She only becomes aware again when she is done and I start freaking out "for no reason."  She claims to have no memories of this afterward and claims to truly believe that those things "did not happen."

I am trying to figure out what to do about this situation with her, but I am positive that I can't stand living with someone who does this any longer.  I am also starting to believe that I don't deserve to have to live with this either.  Wow!  It's amazing what I'm realizing about myself even right now as I type.  I wish you the best in life.

longtire

[Cadbury]

I said something similar in another post, but it seems relevant here so I'll share it again!!   My Nboyfriend (trying to get the ex part sorted!) was on my computer the other day checking his email and I hadn't cleared my history on Internet explorer   . Anyway, it meant that he saw a description of Narcissism that I had been looking at when I first discovered the explanation for his behaviour. He read it and then asked me why I had been looking at it. I said it was because I had filled out an online personality disorder test for us both and then looked up all the things it had come up with. He said that the Narcissism must have come up on mine as it in NO WAY described him. I took a deep breath and said that no, actually it had come up on his. He laughed and then insisted on doing the test himself in front of me. I typed in the link and watched him fill it out (he said I could). It was amazing to see. For every question almost he answered it falsely, if I said anything he just said, No the question doesn't mean that at all. It was so self-delusional you really wouldn't believe it. The weirdest thing was that he had no idea he was doing this at all. He genuinely thought he had answered those questions truthfully and fairly. So not only do they lie, but they really do not seem to know they do it. It made me feel sad that he was like it, but also helped me cope with some of the things he has previously said, as it really does seem to boil down to the fact that he has this disorder. Although it hurts just the same, it seems somehow easier to get over it all once I know he really didn't know he was doing it. Or have I been fooled again?!!  

[one_eyed_Jack]

No, I don't think you've been fooled again. I think you saw a perfect demonstration of how the defence mechanism of narcissism works. I think it is heart-breaking to watch but there isn't a darn thing I can do about it. I just give my DH over to God.