Author Topic: Heist on Something....  (Read 30122 times)

Hopalong

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #90 on: December 25, 2017, 03:20:09 PM »
PS--And Tupp I thought your comment to your confused male friend was genius. You probably moved that man forward in his social life more than he could imagine!

I don't have any disagreement with your thoughts about compliments, or Amber's either really. I think every woman knows, because she's a unique pileup of experiences and inner monologue...how they work or don't work for her.

I think it's TONE and CONTEXT as much as wording, you know? "Hey beautiful!" whistled aggressively by a stranger when I'm alone on a sidewalk in heels is not a compliment. Doesn't make me feel happy and welcome in the world, but prey. "Hey beautiful!" in a delighted affectionate tone from someone I were loved by would definitely liberate my inner purr. "Hubba-hubba!" would work well too, Amber!  :lol:

(B's remark about the age-number, 7 years younger than I am, was...okay. Hmm, maybe that was an engineer compliment. I keep forgetting some people think in numbers...)  :lol:

Love to you, and were I there I'd be fixing tea and looking forward to a long yak in your parlor --I'd probably talk you to sleep--and maybe a game with your boy. Consider it done in the metaphysical sense!

xo
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Twoapenny

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #91 on: December 25, 2017, 04:21:26 PM »
PS--And Tupp I thought your comment to your confused male friend was genius. You probably moved that man forward in his social life more than he could imagine!

I don't have any disagreement with your thoughts about compliments, or Amber's either really. I think every woman knows, because she's a unique pileup of experiences and inner monologue...how they work or don't work for her.

I think it's TONE and CONTEXT as much as wording, you know? "Hey beautiful!" whistled aggressively by a stranger when I'm alone on a sidewalk in heels is not a compliment. Doesn't make me feel happy and welcome in the world, but prey. "Hey beautiful!" in a delighted affectionate tone from someone I were loved by would definitely liberate my inner purr. "Hubba-hubba!" would work well too, Amber!  :lol:

(B's remark about the age-number, 7 years younger than I am, was...okay. Hmm, maybe that was an engineer compliment. I keep forgetting some people think in numbers...)  :lol:

Love to you, and were I there I'd be fixing tea and looking forward to a long yak in your parlor --I'd probably talk you to sleep--and maybe a game with your boy. Consider it done in the metaphysical sense!

xo
Hops

Aw, Hopsie, that would be heaven - although we may have to talk in separate rooms so I don't give you my cold :)

Yes, tone and context is exactly it.  There's a big difference between a nice comment from someone that you care about and some random shouting at you in the street.  And I think as I've got older I've just found myself yearning for deep conversations, interesting interchanges that make me think, whereas when I was younger I was always in such a rush I tended to avoid men who wanted to talk at length.  Maybe it's just to do with growing up at different rates - if a middle aged man is still thinking like a nineteen year old would it won't gel with a middle aged woman who's changed and grown over the years.  You're right, it's your unique experiences - I'm really drawn to people who want to know what my unique experiences are (and who are willing or able to share theirs with me) :)

Hopalong

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #92 on: December 28, 2017, 09:10:20 AM »
I swear, when I take my ADD med I can write forever, so this is a loooong ramble.

B will be meeting my dearest friends tonight, 12 years older. Like B, they are more conservative than I am (old-school courtesies, widespread civic commitments, fairly traditional gender roles--I think we've voted similarly, though). I am way more llifestyle-liberal (60's history i.e., sexdrugsrock'nroll, anti-authority, feminism). They are better human beings than I will ever hope to be. Their liberality is in loving generously, without fear, and with sacrifice. They are deeply religious, never prosyletized me one bit despite my agnosticism, and simply live out their religion. They adopted two children with disabilities, always had refugees living in their spare bedrooms, volunteer seriously (I'm more talk than action) and adopted me too, when I was a sad divorcing neighbor who needed a semblance of family.

They've continued to care about me throughout divorce, my D's decline into mental illness, my loss of parents, brother and other family, and financial troubles. They stay over on their way to see their own D once or twice a year. After some terrible events in my town last summer I went straight to them for a few days of comfort.

Here's my question for y'all this morning. I know that they know what goodness is because they embody it (though they'd never say so). So I'm eager to see what they think of B when we have dinner together tonight. They also practice continual forgiveness of others because it's a core religious principle.

I don't think it's reasonable to put the responsibility on a few friends' impressions and worry theirs may be "too positive" anyway because of their default practice of loving and accepting everyone. If it'd be revealing, I'd ask them to really assess B's character as honestly as they can based on the first impression of a few hours. What I wonder is if their kindness might cause them to overlook masking behavior on his part, or to reinterpret it in the kindest light? (I've seen in my family the downside or "blinding" effect of patriarchal religion when it skates past abusive or oppressive behavior in males.) Or whether because they care for me, they'll look at him more deeply than they otherwise might, and perceive subtle red flags I miss?

I ask because there are just two things, really, that have given me serious pause about B so far. We have moved past them mostly, and he's made a kind of about-face. The first was the sexist "joke" he shared (that diner-type restaurants hire the "ugliest women", his good buddy said, ha ha ha). The second was the night I declined to ask him in and his kissing/touching suddenly got angry and aggressive.

Something to bear in mind is that when I told him how I felt about the sexist joke (that he was dissing an exhausted blue-collar woman who likely had two jobs and, given the affordable housing shortage in this area, may have to drive an hour to get to work) -- he said with no squirreling, I was being a jerk. The second thing, which killed my attraction temporarily, he said he would not do again (pressure me to go faster than I wished) and the last time we were together, he kept his word.

In both of these instances, when I spoke up about things that had disturbed me, he changed them promptly. I think that is a very good thing!

What I don't know, because of my history of overlooking red flags and judging poorly who'd be an appropriate mate, is whether his changes were just to move us along and get a woman installed in his life asap, or whether they're a sign of a person who really does want to grow, offer me his best self and build happiness.

I could boil this post down into something simple, and y'all have already given me incredible, astute guidance. So if you're sick of offering insights to apply, you're off the hook! Truly.

What it boils down to is reflecting more clearly this morning that my real issue is trust. Of myself as well as him. How do I know that despite external, political and social differences, I can trust this person at his core? The two "bad things" were red flags for me and I do respect my judgement about those two events. I felt very solid in my awareness that those were not okay for me. His responses, however, were entirely non-defensive and really surprised me. But can I trust them?

My second marriage was a Jekyll and Hyde experience that revealed to me that I'd missed a forest of red flags and there was serious damage in my mate, with consequences that were devastating to me (and my D).

So that's my baggage, which is blocking my view and clouding my lens.

I think just writing all this I know the answer: other people can't fix trust for me. I have to begin trusting that I've learned enough from my mistakes and that I have functioning insight and intuition sufficient to help me choose wisely. I need to believe in something. I know I believe in these friends' goodness (and in y'all's, god knows). And often I've gone it alone out of stubborn independence and made really crappy decisions for myself.

But I remember Tupp reminding me I've done some things in my life pretty intelligently. Maybe what's happening now is I'm trying to believe I've acquired enough emotional intelligence since divorcing in '95 that I actually could do a better job of it this time.

There sure is a lot of temptation -- a gentler life, a committed partner, less loneliness and worry, a bit of travel and some fun. My head-down march into old age alone and face its fearfulness, just because I've put my head down and marched into so many other very very hard situations .... is that just habit? Can I really let down my guard and let go a little? Let someone else offer me some protection and strength in this chapter?

Wow. Early morning Rx.

I love you guys. No need for novel-length responses...this is just me, my brain, and remembering the med, which if I applied it to my novel, would mean I'd be on chapter 10 by now!

xo
Hops
PS--So on impulse I just called him up and told him I had a big think this morning and kind of peeled away another layer of fear due to my past poor judgment. I told him I realized I've been asking myself whether maybe with him it'll be safe to risk more vulnerability, and that I'm trying to peel back another layer of armor. And that for some reason he's making me feel like taking that risk. Or something to that effect. He sounded really happy and told me he had a huge smile on his face. I heard joy in his voice. My inner pit bull can return, but it was a scary-nice moment.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 09:22:35 AM by Hopalong »
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Twoapenny

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #93 on: December 28, 2017, 09:53:10 AM »
Oh, Hops, bless you, I hear and understand everything you've said, ADD meds or not! :)

Quick responses (and by that I mean I'm responding by my instincts rather than thinking too much about things because I find that usually works for me) -

I think your friends will likely love him and think he's wonderful, charming and a great match for you (which from many of the things you've written he is in many ways and at many times).  I doubt they will pick up on subtle red flags; the only people I know who pick up on subtle signs are generally those who've been through eons of therapy, read every self help book going and worked on themselves endlessly.  The signs of manipulation and control are so subtle that even explaining them to other people is difficult, because when you say he did/said x, y and z it never sounds like that big a deal (except it is!).  So I'd be inclined to just enjoy the time with them and not pay too much mind to what they think about him.

What I think would be interesting - given his comments about being annoyed that you were talking about friends instead of about your relationship on the boob grabbing night - is to see how he interacts with your friends and how he is with you afterwards - is he snippy about them, does he seem agitated, does he feel he's due a reward now he's met them, etc etc.  I think that might be more revealing than what your friends think of him.

With regards to trust - I think there's only so much trust anyone can give in a relationship.  I think what you need to trust is your ability to see, focus, speak, take time to think and be true to yourself in these situations.  Personally I find people I don't know very well making sexist/racist/pick your theme comments really off putting - some things can be said in jest to people you know well but when getting to know people I find I'm put off very quickly by people saying unpleasant things (and just saying them puts me off - why be unpleasant?  It's not more effort to talk about something nice or make a nice comment).  I know you are similar in that outlook, and equally know that he's of a different kind of personality (and generally one that hasn't had to cope with being on the receiving end of a lot of that sort of thing - white, male and affluent) so he may genuinely not have perceived what he said as being unpleasant.  You've picked him up on the things you're not happy about and he's responded well.  Maybe too well - again, I think the only way you'll know is to see how things play out.  If there's a pattern of him saying or doing something, you having to address it, him apologising and then going on and doing the same thing again then that would be difficult to cope with.  But equally, as you say, maybe he's just used to people not speaking up around him - he might be enjoying the challenge :)

So I think just keep on keeping on.  Time, conversation, his friends, your friends, weekends, holidays, time at home, time away from home - I don't think people can keep facades up indefinitely so as time goes on I think you'll see whether he's open to learning and growing (with you) or whether he's just keeping you sweet so he gets what he wants quicker.  I think just keep focusing on you - your pace, your heart, keeping yourself safe emotionally - it's hard when the carrot of not being alone for ever is dangled in front of you.  It's easy to ignore the red flags because the alternative is nicer but I think you've been down that road before so I don't think you'll make that mistake again.

I'm keeping everything crossed!  And hoping it's all good :)

Love Tup xx

Hopalong

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #94 on: December 28, 2017, 12:18:46 PM »
Thank you, (((Tupp)))!!!
That really helped; I'm lucky you were available so fast and your reply was reassuring. Mainly because you were back to reality and paying attention and actually trusting myself, whereas I was tying myself up in an elaborate ball of analysis plus fear.

I think when he told that joke he was casting about for something amusing since I'd been frustrated by the waitress. He described himself early on as someone who feels compelled to "fix things" (or as my T suspected, perhaps codependent), so maybe he was just blurting out something related to diners to distract me. He didn't seem to find it hilarious but he's not a natural joke teller, so passed on something a buddy had said. Stupid (and sexist) but not shocking. Maybe, too, he laughed along then because he's been stepped in macho culture and male dominated stuff his whole life.

What impressed me was how directly and simply he responded when I shared how I felt about the joke. He said, "I was being a jerk" in a tone that sounded real. He didn't deflect, call me an over-sensitive feminazi, he just owned it. Same later when I explained the resistance/anxiety I felt when he over-rode my retreat from touch (he wasn't scary, just tuned out). He owned that too and did something about it.

If both of those reactions are an indicator of character, actually I may be quite lucky. He definitely has lived a life of responsibility (won a spot at the Air Force Academy, stayed married and faithful for 46 years despite wife's serious issues, continues to counsel his former partners in business, is in close touch with daughter and granddaughters). It seems as though honesty and loyalty are big priorities.

How he's reacted to meeting my other friends has been friendly and open, and he's had nothing snide to say afterward. (He did make explicit how much he liked my alpha-gf but perhaps not her snarky husband, but wasn't nasty about the hub.) He was gracious with another couple and bonded well with the males there, though he didn't have much chance to talk to the women (only one other than my gf and me).

So given who my visiting friends we'll see tonight are, can't imagine he won't respond well.

Thank you for reminding me to calm down. After I shared increased vulnerability with him this morning, I reacted internally with an anxiety spurt. But given my past I think that's pretty normal, not an indicator that it was dangerous.

Spent all morning processing all this and now will be nearly late to work and have to tidy the house in a panic just before my friends arrive. What else is new?

Have a great day, everybody. More later.

love,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Twoapenny

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #95 on: December 28, 2017, 01:06:05 PM »
I look forward to reading more later, Hops, and I think the way you are managing and processing all of this (and responding to different situations) is completely normal, given everything you've been through over the years (and for what it's worth, I don't think anything you're feeling is abnormal - anxiety at the start of a new relationship is something I think most people can identify with).  I am hoping all signs are good ones; I know I am in the 'take it all with a pinch of salt and wait and see what happens' category but I think you know yourself well enough to spot things - you've been very observant and very honest with him (and yes, I think working in an all male environment would lead to different sorts of jokes - I find the conversation if I'm out with a group of mostly male friends is very different to a mixed group or if I'm chatting one on one to a male friend, and the same goes for all female groups - there are things we feel more comfortable joking about in different types of company).  I've got my fingers crossed for good things :) xx

lighter

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #96 on: December 28, 2017, 02:13:32 PM »
Hi Hops:

Two things....

Trusting again doesn't have to include huge risk.  I understand the harsh effects if poor choices regarding what turns out to be an unsafe husband and father of our children.  That's about worst case scenario in romance.

At this time of life, it's more about risk management, without limiting opportunity for growth, and opportunity.

You may not have control over who and what B is, but you do have control over your intuition, and what you risk as you navigate this journey.

Best case....B is attached to you in all ways, loyal, and driven to give as well as receive in a recipicol lifelong pairing out if respect and live for you.

I can picture many in betweens, but worst case scenario involves his being a Jekyll Hide pd, with you limiting the harm through prudent decisions designed to mitigate the negative possibilities you suffered full force years before.

Looking back at red flags dismissed, and the more painful regrets.... remember hard won lessons bring wisdom.  You will likely not repeat the old mistakes, and can see the jagged places that snagged your heart and soul, changed your world view into one of needing a particular outcome, that wasn't possible no matter how badly you wanted it.

Being able to walk away gives us power and agency over ourselves and our futures.  Releasing expectations and embracing truth without judgement is safety, imo.  Worst case you ventured out, found attraction again, rolled around in  it like a teenager, learned about what you want more, and less of.  Laughter, and belif in yourself can rule these days, no matter what comes.

I wouldn't outright ask your friends to vet this guy.  I'd let them know I was doing it, with eyes wide open, hoping for the best but unsure what will come. 

That way they'll adopt your curious stance, without judgement or pressure, and likely engage in constructive conversation afterwards....seems natural ly, not dutifully or as a job they could fail at if things go badly either way.

In the meantime you stay busy with a life you enjoy and embrace as priority.  You aren't so focused on this man that you lose yourself.  This is a casual inquiry, not a life or death situation you've hung your self esteem on.  You're going to come through this decision stringer, better informed about yourself and B. 

Lean into discovery.....blast fear, it only slows you down and makes you feel heavier in heart, mind and soul.

I hope you and B go dancing, Hops.  I hope you see shows and sightsee.  Give him enough trust to show you who he is, without risking things you can't do without.  Ask him if he wants to go an adventure with you.....he will.  Laugh.  Be busy.  Plan great things.

Believe him when he tells and shows you who he is.

Even if it's not OK......
It's OK.

:: nodding::
Lighter





sKePTiKal

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #97 on: December 28, 2017, 09:46:04 PM »
Late to the party...

Hops - of the 2 things that bothered/bother you - the first isn't a dealbreaker; it's something verbal he tossed out in an awkward moment. The second MIGHT be, and because it did happen once and you & he talked it through, you can now trust yourself to catch any repeat performances. That should allow you to extend a little bit more trust to B... and relax, knowing you WILL catch any whiff of a pattern.

I have big trust issues too. About different things - but I KNOW my inability to easily trust others is due to a deep-seated distrust of my self. My instinctive way of dealing with that is NOT helpful, even if it is effective. We'll talk about that more elsewhere.

Waiting to hear how your evening went.
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Hopalong

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #98 on: December 29, 2017, 12:16:04 PM »
Thank you ALL for getting me through the pre-dinner panic attack.
It went well! My friends were impressed and B was absolutely lovely to them.
He clearly does care about making a good impression on people so important to me.
As we were leaving he suggested to them that he and I should come to their city to visit.
So she said to me later, gosh he really is moving it forward!
And I said, I have my foot on the brake....

But it was nice. He emailed this morning that he'd dreamed of us sleeping in each
other's arms with "nothing but peace and joy."

Soooo nice. And then....

He sent another email with one of those dumb collations of joke images from the internet, and two of them were: 1) racist (a "Detroit bumper sticker" showing 3 incarcerated males and beside them, 1 female with about a dozen children. Implication -- black.) It was ugly and ignorant about all the problems of African Americans, not the least of which is incarceration rates and lack of jobs.
2) Sexist. A har-har photoshopped image of that pic of Hillary Clinton greeting Harvey Weinstein and Weinstein's face has been turned to the camera and the image changed to him pushing HER away...and the caption is Harvey saying with a big grin, "Gotta draw the line somewhere!"

B's note to me was, "You'll find these make you laugh and smile!" Clearly, thought he was sharing something delightful. Those two actually made me sad. And moreso, because he saw no issues.

So despite the love-bombing...Hops dunno.

I feel exhausted at the prospect of explaining empathy to someone who has clearly been moving in right-wing mental circles, even if he didn't vote for the current president.

I dunno what that'd imply. On the other hand, he told a story about how disturbed he was about a local muslim business owner whose proud photo of his grandfather, in his robes and dress, caused someone to come in, rest his hand on a visible handgun, and tell him "You need to take that photo down because we don't want that kind of thing around here...." B was not happy about that.

(So how does he miss the meaning of racist and/or sexist images he just sent?). I don't get it. Maybe the local guy is real to him since he's met him, but women who are sexually harrassed and one who was demonized beyond belief with pure hatred when she ran for office, and anonymous black men in jail and inner-city black women...are just cartoons to him. Not people.)

Oy. I can't and don't want to be thought police but when he shares stuff that overt, I feel as though maybe it's a moment I should speak to. Don't know how.

Likewise, not sure how I can reconcile the pleasures of being wanted and so forth...with a core disconnect about empathy.

Still thinking. Still dunno, but I don't feel panicky any more. For now...

love and more thanks,
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Twoapenny

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #99 on: December 29, 2017, 01:31:34 PM »
Oh Hops!  He is a complex one.  Humour is an odd thing; different things being funny to different people.  If those pics were part of a larger collection could it be that he didn't actually scroll through the whole thing himself, maybe that the first few made him laugh and he assumed they were all similar (playing Devil's Advocate here!).

I think the thing with sexism, racism and all the other isms that exist is that they do take different forms for different people.  It's common here in the UK for someone to say "I'm not racist but".......... and then say something racist.  I think for some people racism is about calling people names or beating them up for their colour.  I don't think things like making assumptions about people, ignoring that they are treated differently, albeit subtly and quietly in some cases, acknowledging that some people have access to fewer opportunities because of their colour/gender/ sexuality/whatever count as an 'ism' in some people's minds.  Shades of what's okay and what's not.  My sister and her partner's family are very racist (to my mind), but I know if I took my Indian friend round to their house they'd welcome her with open arms and treat her like one of the family.  To them they're not racist because they aren't mean to people to their faces.  To me that's not enough.  My sister and I voted differently for the Leave Referendum (about leaving Europe).  My main concern was that life for disabled people will get even worse in this country if we aren't in the European Union.  When I voiced that to my sister she replied that things weren't great (for disabled people) anyway.  To me that is someone who regards disabled people as second class citizens who just don't deserve or even need the same rights as people without disabilities and someone who completely misses the point about equality.  But if you asked my sister whether she thought disabled people should be treated the same as people without disabilities she'd say of course they should.  So I think it's different levels for different people.

So, I dunno.  From everything you have written he seems like a nice guy with a crap sense of humour.  Maybe that will level out as time goes on.  Maybe you could watch a comedy show that you find funny so he's sees more of what makes you tick.  I think it's still a case of see what happens - will his good points outweigh his sometimes naff jokes and clumsy way of handling things?  There will always be something that someone finds irritating about the other person - I think it's just a case of where the line is.  So I've no idea where things are now!  I'm glad the meal went well though, and that he got on well with your friends.  xx

lighter

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #100 on: December 30, 2017, 06:54:33 AM »
What would you do if you received these right wing chain mail from anyone else?  I typically deleted them until I lost patience quickly, then politely asked to be removed from their mailing list on the chain. 

I've seen very pointed responses to racist sexist jokes, but you'll want to handle this one face to face, bc you don't want B' s group of racist sexist friends lobbying against you over this.

B has some flaws, and you have to figure out how deep they go.  What can you live with?  Is he capable of self reflection, and empathy?  Those are pretty important, Hops.

And.....he dreamed if you sleeping in each other's arms with nothing but peace and joy.

I'm tempted to toss a little red flag on that one, just bc. 

I want you to have what you want.  Just do it with both eyes open.  I say this bc I'm more likely to bs myself, and practice DIM thinking regarding past mate's character flaws.  That's a terrible strategy, ime. 

Know what you're in for. 

That your friends seemed to like him means he's not so obtuse he's sharing these topics in mixed company.  Maybe he hangs with people who believe these things.  Maybe he hasn't questioned them.  Maybe he's just on a mailing list and hasn't thought through.

If he's spending hours looking this stuff up, and starting the chains..... that's, perhaps, different than getting tacked on to an extraverted racist's chain mail list. 

I'm wondering what B will do if you bring the topic up.  What will he identify as the "problem" in need of resolving?  Your views on the topic, or the very serious cultural problems that need to be addressed by everyone?  What does he think would help?

Maybe he'll answer that question reflexively, and give you all the information you need. 

Maybe he'll give it some thought for the first time, and surprise to you both with his answer.

Lighter












sKePTiKal

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #101 on: December 30, 2017, 08:42:19 AM »
Sigh...

You're getting the grand tour of B, warts & all, Hops. You're one more level of trust closer to his inner circle, if he's taking the risk of sharing this with you. It's probably something he's sharing to see how YOU react to it. A fishing expedition to find out more about you and how personally you take politics, as they're currently being popularly defined. Are you flexible enough to accept that he may hold different ideas on topics - even diametrically opposed to yours - and still feel comfortable, trusting and attracted to him?

This is something I think a LOT about, because I don't want to limit my circle of friends, acquaintances, and potential beaus to one political affiliation - if there is a preponderance of other reasons I'm interested. To my way of thinking it's the height of prejudice to immediately dismiss another person simply because they hold different political (or religious, or whatever) ideas... UNLESS, their whole identity is wrapped up in that affiliation and there is no other dimension to them. Then, it's a case (again, for me) that the person has self-limited their thinking/interactions to what's derisively known as the "echo chamber". For me, it doesn't matter, which of the two sides they've chosen - it's that they only SEE two sides, that's the problem.

BOTH sides are indulging in some pretty mean, petty and cruel jibes/criticisms of each other. Just like Junior High cliques. That behavior (to me) prevents the possibility of finding out just how much the PEOPLE who are supporting opposing sides to an issue, really do have in common. At Thanksgiving, it was easy to see that Matt's mom and I shared a lot of similar, hard-core, basic and fundamental values... even though we come at an issue from the opposite ends of the political spectrum. For all I'm talking about trust & anxiety in new situations - as the most conservative person in that whole group, I didn't feel threatened, out on a limb, or like I just didn't belong there.

So, the question is: is B giving you a test? To see if you can tolerate, put up with and overlook what, to you, is clearly a "wart"... but just as clearly, isn't a defining characteristic of his personality (as far as we know). Is he curious about your beliefs and opinions here... and this is his way of avoiding coming right out & asking? (Then, I'd wonder why he couldn't just bring up the topic directly...)
 
Or was it just sharing that side of himself, because he feels comfy enough with you to do that? Releasing the outcome of whatever reaction you might have? (ie, not thinking at all that it might offend)

I have a feeling I'm going to babbling a lot today. But back later... I do have things to accomplish today.


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Hopalong

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #102 on: December 30, 2017, 11:45:41 AM »
Y'all are amazing. You offer such a rich field of angles, possibilities, nuances and intuitions through your unique lenses and experiences. All your brains, all your brains! (said the zombie). In our tiny VESMB crowd, I'm experiencing crowd-sourced intelligence as truly powerful, inspiring, hopeful, growth-stimulating, on and on. Thank you.

Tupp, you view him (and me!) in such a forgiving and compassionate light. You have a "light" touch with judgment and that's really helpful. I scream away judgily in my head and react intensely to various signs and symbols, and along you come offering a kinder, broader view. Complex! And naff.

This cut right to it for me, and is so perceptive:
Quote
I don't think things like making assumptions about people, ignoring that they are treated differently, albeit subtly and quietly in some cases, acknowledging that some people have access to fewer opportunities because of their colour/gender/ sexuality/whatever count as an 'ism' in some people's minds.  Shades of what's okay and what's not.

I also think your raising the possibility that he didn't even scroll all the way through the images was helpful. It's always useful when my Pavlov-culture-panic bells go off to hit pause for the possibility that what I think was happening didn't happen at all. That said, the general tenor of the jokes collection was mean. Somebody wrote something about "heartland hostility" coating the internet, and I got what they meant. (Not really a geographical point.) But I don't know if it's his own hostility toward various people/classes/tribes, or just a carryover from the environments he's lived in.

B told me something interesting that I hadn't quite figured out, because he is so pleasant and personable around people. He's actually a shy introvert. Didn't dawn on me. For example, some of the things he does that I've worried are controlling might be, or might alternatively be projections of how he makes HIMSELF feel more comfortable. He frequently asks about "dress code" when we're just meeting friends for dinner. Should I dress...casually? (I stopped giving a hoot about what people think about what I wear decades ago.) And I'm invited to a NYEve dinner at friends of his now. So he starts saying something like, I don't know whether you'll feel comfortable about this, but it's not just my friends I've told you about, but their children and some people I don't know anything about may be there... And I thought that was odd, and told him "Don't worry....I really don't ever need protection, socially" and he went, oh okay, I get it, it's just that I'm such an introvert... Then a light went on. Huh, it was really helpful to suddenly get that. (He's so socially smooth I had not thought about E vs I, and his "power" and success made me not perceive "shy" until he told me he was.)

Off topic except that I started imagining (err per Lighter, hope this isn't rationalizing bad behavior) that shy people sometimes can go along with some aggressive humor or things they might not generate themselves because it's part of male bonding, for example. Dunno yet, but that's another nuance that might help, if it's true. Time will tell. He could be both. Shy and controlling. Bigoted (oh hope that's too strong) and kind to a local muslim. As you said: complex.

Thanks, Tupp! What a blessing you are.

love
Hops

"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Hopalong

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #103 on: December 30, 2017, 11:55:40 AM »
Lighter, every time I read your counsel I feel confident.
Or, you conjure up an unfamiliar confidence in me. To try on. At least try it on.
You tell me I can observe. I can remain my own emotional center and not give it away.
I can experience play, laughter and risk while thinking.

(You also make me feel smarter and more perceptive than I actually am.)

Your touch of wariness is strengthening, and your reminder to enjoy in the present anyway because I can handle the future whichever way it goes, is heartening.

I feel as though I'm looking out-of-focus at a map and you're just saying beside me, well if we take this route we would wind up there, and if we take this one, there. Overall, look at all the options there are.

Thank you! (x100)

I'm curious why his romantic pronouncement inspired a little red flag "just bc..." I liked that you said that but don't know why I did.

love,
Hops

PS--the truth is if I got a cruel-joke right-wing email from anyone else, I'd likely not want to continue being close to that person. That's why I'm feeling some distress about this. (It's the "mean" and not the specific politics that matter to me. Policy differences between moderates are fine. And one of my best friends has watched/trusted a right-wing fake-news network forever. We just don't go there. I dunno how long one could avoid "there" in an intimate relationship. Wish I did. I keep thinking of Mary Matalin and James Carville....)

« Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 12:02:49 PM by Hopalong »
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Hopalong

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Re: Heist on Something....
« Reply #104 on: December 30, 2017, 12:31:27 PM »
Amber, thank you.
This is really, really wise-wise-wise-wise...(that's my echo...). Busted, and fairly reminded:

Quote
To my way of thinking it's the height of prejudice to immediately dismiss another person simply because they hold different political (or religious, or whatever) ideas... UNLESS, their whole identity is wrapped up in that affiliation and there is no other dimension to them. Then, it's a case (again, for me) that the person has self-limited their thinking/interactions to what's derisively known as the "echo chamber". For me, it doesn't matter, which of the two sides they've chosen - it's that they only SEE two sides, that's the problem.

This was a really good question for me to focus on:
Quote
Are you flexible enough to accept that he may hold different ideas on topics

The answer is yes. Definitely. My mind is elastic enough and my curiosity and humanity big enough that I really do care about learning how another "side" approaches topics, problems, and solutions. No doubt. Listening, extending respect...in my view are the only possible cure to the horrible divisions that are breaking us in two as a society.

But.

I'm not sure I'm flexible enough to accept that he may hold different ideas on people. How one treats them but also how one thinks about: classes of people who are "other", people who are vulnerable, people who are different, people who don't see the world as you do. It's not practical policy questions that concern me about the reactions I've had over these things, it's the theme of contempt or lack of compassion. ("Ugly" women working in diners, Harvey Weinstein rejecting a hated female with a hideous smirk, black human beings drawn literally as stick figures...).

It's like being a humorless prude. I am not a humorless prude! But I do feel a little like one when I view things like those images. I instantly see the object of the crude derision as a human being in a particular context. And I am saddened when another person doesn't uphold their humanity. Particularly when it's a powerful, wealthy, male, white person finding the belittlement of the "other" hilarious.

Remains to be seen whether B genuinely finds these things hilarious, and I'm more than ready to find out that he does not. But it's a thing, because it's cropped up two or three times. Just a thing I need to find out more about.

If he were actually "testing" me, politics-wise, I'd be shocked he was so strategic. But I'd also be completely comfortable with failing such a test. It would be such a manipulative way of learning more about me. I'm not thinking he's really that sly. But he is very smart. Good thing to ponder.

I'm thinking a gentle and direct conversation about it, because he's responding so far really wonderfully to probing conversations....will be the best way to deal with it. I think I can just tell him what I thought I saw (the theme of other-ing and contempt in humor) and how that doesn't fit with how I experience him personally, but what's it about for him, does he think?

I believe he'll give me answers, and not deflect. I truly do think he'll do that.

Not at a NYEve party, but another time soon, I would like to know.

Lastly, about humor. Truth in jest. One thing that makes me happy is that he finds me funny. He laughs at my idiosyncratic wit (my poet-brain...when I come up with specific and weird images for stuff). When I told him his whiskers felt like "little redwoods that had been cut with a rusty chainsaw" he cracked up. When I said about my body that "I'm tapioca from the collarbone down" he cracked up. Metaphors and quirky perceptions that bubble out of me when we're being playful, he really likes. Or my deadpan delivery. Dunno but it's pleasing to have that appreciated.

(Nothing a goof-brain, particularly a writer, likes better than making another person laugh...)

Thanks again for the challenges and the incisive questions, Amber. Hoover is ON. (And I admit I see whataboutism everywhere.)

hugs
Hops

PS--It's not lost on me that B loved a "bleeding-heart liberal" enough to stay married to her for 40 years. And that he's considering another one!

PPS---Aaand...this article felt to me like a wise conglomerated VESMB post for the nation, so apt:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/polls-show-americans-distrust-the-media-but-talk-to-them-and-its-a-very-different-story/2017/12/27/ed9bbabe-ce3b-11e7-81bc-c55a220c8cbe_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_sullivan-810am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.3e4fca51ae0f
« Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 01:05:16 PM by Hopalong »
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."