Relationship/s

[Hopalong]

Thanks, guys. You're both very wise.
I have so appreciated all the patient listening and support.

I'm catching a whiff of dead horse so I'll try harder to move forward.

hugs
Hops

[lighter]

Hops:

I wouldn't worry about dead horses, if I could help it.

You once posted about the necessity of getting sick of being sick of dissecting a heavy emotional situation, like a breakup.

You were so kind to whomever you were posting to....maybe it was me.  I hope you slow down, stop feeling you SHOULD do anything, and bask in that warm compassion you gift to others without thought.

One more thing, there's going to be a vacuum where M's frantic need, for you, used to be.  I suspect it ties into our feelings of self worth....there's something very potent about the adoration of a wealthy, very intelligent man we like very much, butt for unhealthy attachment styles, maybe a bit on our side too if I'm being honest, and the incompatability of some pretty important core values....and.....any reciprocity - you know what I'm trying to say here.

From me to you....
You have value, no matter if a man is crowing about it or not.  I know this is truth.  I also know the empty sadness you described...quite intimately.

Trust, Hops.  You're an amazing partner and companion.  You deserve to be valued for your voice, as well as your listening skills, so say I.

There are people better suited to quietly going along, particularly if they haven't traveled much or seen a lot of the world, IME. My first husband told me flat out he was unhappy I'd traveled more than him, had more education than him, bc he preferred being guide and teacher in his relationships.

Looking back, I had the information I needed to SEE what was what.

It was acceptance I lacked, imo.

With hindsight, I see my worth was never dependent on either husband's opinion of me.

Even though that's truth, the empty sadness is still real, IME.

Be gentle with yourself, ((Hops.))  It's OK.

Lighter

[Twoapenny]

Lighter said everything far more eloquently than me, Hopsie   Yes to all of the above and no to dead horses.  As much time, talking and compassion as necessary is available   But with your heart protected so it doesn't get any more chips in it now (and I don't mean the ones you can eat!  Lol) xx

[Hopalong]

No particular optimism about it, but I had a second date with the bidnessman. He's nice and seems quite interested, but I don't think we're clicking. I've agreed to meet him one more time (just to see if he opens up some) and he's pleasant enough, but seemed over-focused on stuff that made me uncomfortable. Not in a threatening way, just in an inner roll-my-eyes way.

We met in an outdoor semi-open restaurant patio setting. I was tense the whole time but because of the virus, not him. A table of about 8 maskless women screeching their heads off the whole time was about 12 feet away and our server let his mask hang below his nose. (There was reasonably good air flow through gaps in the plastic curtains but it still was too enclosed for comfort.) My date was wanting to hold hands, not concerned as I was, and even asked me to kiss him when we got to my car. That nearly offended me. I had made clear how careful I intend to be.

He's nice enough but later emailed to ask if I'd eat with him in a private dining room if he reserved one because that would be safe. Not necessarily. Sent him an article from the Post about the lousy air exchange in most restaurants and declined, but finally agreed to meet one more time outdoors at a winery.

After that, I don't think I want to try dating any more until spring. It's too cold and it's stressful to try to find places that have heated outdoor seating. Plus, he made a couple requests that didn't alarm me but did annoy -- send me photos without an overcoat because that's the only way he'd seen me. That plus him asking to kiss after my stress over the virus in the restaurant made me feel he's more focused on my body than on actually getting to know me slowly. (Or everything I was signaling about the virus anxiety went unheard.)

He's a fit skinny man and I'm self-conscious about my weight, so I didn't enjoy him focusing on my body so quickly (second date). Give me a break. I think he's a good person, maybe just not my type. I have a feeling he's accustomed more to "ladies" who are always getting their hair and nails done, clothes shopping, stuff that means zip to me. When I said I hadn't been inside a business since March he said, but how do you get your hair and nails done? And his ancient mother's had two facelifts. I think we might be from different planets.

It wasn't awful but I don't think it's going to be great either. I'm glad I went IF I don't come down with Covid (he has regular exposure to family --a niece comes and stays--and goes to an office). He says he wears a mask but he was always eager to take his off.

Ai yi. It's okay though. And therapeutic to get out and do something, regardless.

More when/if there's more to describe. Just kinda grumbling. Had a good cozy day with a great companion -- Pooch.

hugs
Hops

[Twoapenny]

Lord, Hops, I hear ya!  It is soooo difficult right now with different people interpreting things in different ways and not knowing who is taking the same precautions that you are and who isn't.  Particularly as outdoor meeting is just uncomfortable (at best) at the moment.  I've decided not to meet with anyone other than the one mum I've been walking with as I know she's being ultra cautious as are the rest of her family.  It's tough trying to balance the need to be around people and to keep life going as best as possible without catching anything in the process (or passing it on to anyone else).  I'm sorry businessman chap doesn't seem to be shaping up to anything more your style.  In my head I always see you curled up by a fire with a romantic soul who writes poetry and plays guitar   I think it's the hippy in me lol.  And how do you get your hair and nails done?  Lol, I think those are the moments we realise that no, he has one idea and you have another.  I do think it's amazing that you put so much effort into your socialising and taking those moments where you can, especially at the moment when it's so hard to do.  I wish I had some pearls of wisdom or magic solutions to suggest but I'm all out   Other than keep being you, of course, and I hope Mr Right Enough will pop up in the not too distant future xx

[Hopalong]

Thanks, Tupp.

I think I have been going through a period of adjustment to the onset of winter isolation, and these dates have been a sort of last-ditch effort to connect or find some new something before the solo hibernation begins. In this instance I don't really regret it (save the scary virus risky moments which I hope don't add up to infection). Psychologically it's been okay. But rationally, after the next date, I'm suspending the cause until spring, when meeting anybody outdoors will be easy.

Meanwhile, I'm still enjoying semi-regular Zoom visits with friend Quirk, and M and I have shuffled into what for now feels like a fairly calm and (somewhat) comforting friendship. He's coming by at 4:00 today to sample the Bonfire (name of firepit model), as a friend will also arrive (she wears mask AND face shield) to borrow my mixer. I've simplified my attitude to M too. I care about him, and he only wants to talk about himself. If I don't do it often, I can enjoy listening to that now and then. He goes home happy and, with practice, I remain okay. (Letting go of fantasies about him "seeing the light" or "doing new T with Sikh" was essential and though it took me a long drawn-out fight inside myself to do that, I think I'm there. Y'all here helped me a lot, can't be more grateful!)

I don't need to freak out about dating or isolation. I'm looking forward to house and health stuff this winter and hopefully getting things clear enough domestically to begin writing again.

That's my story today and I'm sticking to it!

hugs
Hops

[Hopalong]

Oy. I'm kind of hunching. Pandemic isolation is a symphony in my head.

M and I have seen each other a couple/three times a month lately. The usual: dinner, or me camping out at his place once (only "pod" virus-safe space I've got) when the cleaner came. He came once for wine-and-bonfire and relaxed and loved sitting outdoors, talking and watching the flames. I loved seeing him be less Mr. Professor Dr. King M.

Result. Nothing is different about us as individuals or our personalities. He still is who he is, though his domineering behaviors haven't been on view; he's calmer and seems soberer lately, but doesn't share (ever) about his feelings. I'm still who I am, though less reactive since our connection changed (after I "broke up" with him). I still wish we had a deeper connection, which seems to me would be dependent on him exploring interior spaces that are just too scary (or tedious, in his view). I might be wrong. Either way, I have let go of that hope.

Other result. I'm dealing with the reality that he's adapted better to the "new definition" (compartmentalized friendship, dinners, occasional company, ally-in-emergency) than I am. So, my job is to grow the hell up, re-embrace reality.

Conundrum. My heart makes a loyal beagle look faithless. I told him during that final T session: "my heart will never change toward you." And it's true. I stayed over (he'd painted "my" room my favorite color meanwhile) when my power failed and my house was freezing, and I felt for good or ill: safe, familiar, belonging. At home. Not because of the house; because of him.

After that, I missed him even more actutely. (Due to cleaner visit followed by power failure, we saw each other recently more frequently than we had been.) I had dinner there two nights ago but haven't heard from him since. Hugged him fiercely when I left, maybe that *scared him.

So, I'm trying to acknowledge all of it. Not mad at him or at myself. Just sitting with how difficult it is to suppress and move past how I feel about him (never stopped loving him) to that pragmatic, detached reality-brain. I don't think things are "all better" so I could plunge back in. I do think the fact of love is a reality too.

(I continue to hear from spring-date--the bidnessman--and Quirk. Quirk and I have a lot in common but I dunno. I do not give up on the Big Dream --with someone-- or on hoping, it's just more complicated emotionally than I've wanted to admit.

So, shit.

Just wanted to get some of it out. In my safe space. Thanks for listening. He invited me for Xmas Eve and I've accepted.

hugs
Hops (con't below)

*I emailed I'd decided he was inspired with work, had had plenty of Hops/Pooch time lately and needed a break, or had been kidnapped by Bambis. He wrote back: "Never too much Hops or Pooch time" and was all on fire about some scholarship; joyful.

Bottom line is he feels complete when doing scholarship. That's his primary joy and satisfaction. So not being in touch meant nothing about us, it just meant he was complete. So he's coming over tomorrow for soup and chill. Eager to.

It's ME. I am the one who is more dependent, and more sensitive to all the subcurrents and fears. If he knows he is loved (I think he does) he is happy so goes into full-compartment-scholar mode and a "relationship" doesn't need tending, because he's immersed in the one that matters. I caution myself: remember how desperate each of his wives sounded at various dramatic moments (one moving out while emptying the house after having also tried an unannounced facelift, clearly to freak him out and get his attention; the second otherwise-saintly-by-description having abruptly cut off his access to the internet in frustration, which totally messed him up for days with the university and made him furious); and me, the night I begged him to hear me (Rokugate) and stop giving instructions, and he literally could not stop -- remember, remember.

Ai and yi.

[lighter]

(((Hops)))

I hope you enjoy good food and wine during visits with M.  He's not your dream, but he's safety and companionship in the moment.

Enjoy your fancy fire pit all winter long.  Fellowship by firefight.  Pooch by your side.
Yes.

Lighter

[Hopalong]

He's not your dream, but he's safety and companionship in the moment.

Well, that's really it, Lighter. That simple.

I need my mind to be simpler.

Food and wine? Yegods. Yes, I do. Mussels the other night; stuffed salmon- something another night -- he always kindly does seafood for me. On his own he eats baby animals (baaaaa, mooooo, even suckling oink---I need to not think about it). He just loves cooking, so I'm happy to leave him to it. I've even learned that letting him recite a recipe at tedious length without losing patience is a courtesy and a kindness in return. When I can't handle one more microscopic instruction about something I never intend to do (you can see him shift into lecture mode) then I just change the subject, but kindly. After all, I am enjoying bounty. And that's the price of admission, I figure. I am drawing the line at days of excited emails where he lives through the step by step anticipation of the cooking.

In that regard, I'm not his dream either.

But if I can manage a simple lentil soup, I'm determined to do that tomorrow.

Thanks for reminding me I don't need future resolution right now. I need to get through pandemic winter (and so does he). We'll see what spring brings.

hugs
Hops

[Twoapenny]

I think the feelings will natural lessen, Hopsie, once the pandemic's over and you've no need for a bolt hole while someone cleans the house or such a limited number of people you can spend time with.  It's an intense period and having to hunker down alone is hard.  But I think once it's over, the day to day risk has gone (or at least reduced to no more than all the other every day risks) and you're able to get out and about normally and meet people (old and new), then I think M will take up less space in your life.  I think Lighter's right - safety and companionship through this crazy, turbulent time.  One day at a time xx

[sKePTiKal]

Hey Hops... take it easy on yourself, a minute. There is nothing wrong with trying to explore things from a different set of "rules of engagement" (military term, but also double entendre).

This is pondering season for me, as you know. And given that I'm also dealing with relationships right now too... I am pondering this "thing called love" and our ideas of it, along with the feelings, their origins, etc cerebral "disassembly, oiling the parts, and re-assembly". I don't claim to "know" anything definitively, 100% guaranteed, your money back... but in the what-if dept. or creative BS... whichever one prefers... [end preamble]

I think sometime our emotional intelligence develops & grows at a different rate than say, our perceptions and values and cognitive abilities. And when it comes around to our ideas about "love" and what that's supposed to feel like, and be in the day to day, real life manifestation... well, I think we reach back to some of our earliest "understandings" of what it's supposed to be & feel like. And there's some kind of "sanctity" (for me anyway) attached to that idea/understanding; something pure and unadulterated by changes in societal culture or anything external at all. But of course, I'm a romantic and idealist (if it needs a label)... and that conflicts quite often with my practical and pragmatic self.

One thing I became aware of in that long rip van winkle time after Mike died and I uprooted myself to go somewhere new - yet close to "home" - was that I felt it was time for me to update my ideas about love, should I ever be silly enough to entertain another relationship. What was a functional definition of that relationship when I was 16 just doesn't work for me, now that I'm 60-something. I wouldn't expect it to, either. But somehow - it hadn't seemed to have changed. I wanted to feel that thrill of butterflies... OMG, he LIKES ME... to be his "special person"... and listen to all my mental perambulations as I sorted my own self out. I wanted to look into his eyes and "get him"... and feel reasonably sure he saw and got me too. [sorry for the vague, fuzzy language - it's all I got for emotional stuff]

It kinda dawned on me, that this idea kinda matched up with what I understand enmeshment to be. At least - the FEELING - of it, if not the "rules of engagement/relationship". Simplistically,  my understanding of enmeshment = bad, but love = good caused a logical conflict here.... because in some precognitive sensory way... they both felt the same to me. (And this is leaving out the long analytical study of dysfunctional attachments from FOO) And off I went, down another rabbithole, with the dedication of a Jack Russell terrier...

So, some of the conflict is vocabulary. We just don't have a good descriptive vocabulary for emotions to draw on, I find. When Hol and I are in one of our deep conversations about this stuff - we end up making up words; smooshing things together; combining opposites even, to more accurately convey what we think we mean. The other thing going on, is that my idea of what the "ideal" love or relationship IS, hadn't grown, changed or matured over time. It was still stuck back in my youth. And since that idea came out of dysfunctional attachment - I kinda had to go back to the drawing board. Start from scratch. Redesign. That took TIME; experimentation; daydreaming; and of course, going back over my more significant historical relationships.

So, eventually - I was able to come up with some examples of things that seemed better suited to me now. And that necessitated a complete re-write of what my idea of relationship IS. What the "rules" are; what works/what doesn't - for me. What I like/don't like.

It sounds kinda like what you're into now with M, is the same sort of process - different; your own - but figuring it out. Whether we're conscious of it or not, our capacity for - our tolerance - of things changes as we mature. Things that used to drive us up a wall, maybe aren't such a big deal anymore. Or they're more intense even. I think it comes down to a choice of what we want to experience on a daily basis. Rules of engagement, in other words. The ideas of what your relationship consists of - has changed in some ways.

Why not let it be what it's going to be and simply discover how it feels along the way? Decisions often evolve out of circumstances; they don't necessarily need to be negotiated from the get-go. That helps smooth out the duality of ideas/perception and those seeds of pure emotion... lets things germinate more organically.

(I THINK; like stated in the preamble; I don't KNOW. I'm winging this, same way you are m'dear... this is just some of my pondering about things. Maybe there's something useful in it.)

ETA: edited the usual caffiene-fueled typos...

[Hopalong]

You're right, Amber. Very much so. Thank you.

I'd love to look into a loved one's eyes to know I'm "home." M avoids eye contact but less than he used to. He's always the first to break out of a (short) hug. Intimacy for me begins with a heart connection and that is built from risking sharing some vulnerability and listening.

He shares a ton of thinking about history and society. He doesn't share much feeling. He does act it out; when he said cooking is how he shows love, I believe him. So I'm getting more respectful about that. The overall thing that didn't work was, for me, his insulation from seeing me as as signficant as he was, shown in extreme difficulty in listening or showing interest in stories other than his own. His dismissiveness. His self-absorption may be involuntary. I feel more appreciative and more forgiving, though I still get anxious.

I was going to make soup for him yesterday. Got all focused on that, even made a bread I hadn't before, but as the day went on grew more tense about him coming (and to eat!) so I wound up feeling dizzy and weak, asthma kicked in, and I cancelled. What he doesn't know is the prospect of preparing food around him is miserable, because he focuses on it so intensely that I can't relax and enjoy it. Also, when I called to tell him I wasn't feeling well he listened for about a second and swiftly changed the subject to how HE was feeling, and a catalog of funny symptoms he'd just had. Sometimes it's not that he talks about himself, but the SPEED with which he yanks back the mic, that bothers me.

On my end, I'm having more trouble with loneliness, and that has probably fueled my recent burst of dependency. He talks to close family who adore him every day. I do have friends who care, but most are occupied with family. Most days one friend does call though. She is an extreme Type A who recites what she's doing or calls me to fill gaps when she's driving. It used to bug me that it seemed substance-less, but because of quarantining I've realized it isn't. There's a lot of comfort in loyalty and I've begun to express to her how grateful I am for that. All in all, though, this time of year brings out the alone-in-life feelings. I knew that. 2020 just highlighted it.

Oddly, Quirk is the one I seem to have a lot more in common with these days. We Zoom about every 8-10 days and I suggested we could do that on Christmas, even. He was pleased; he and his late wife were so involved and connected that he seems to not have many friends. He does listen beautifully. He made one joking reference to pooling our resources for a condo in Scandinavia for the warm months since we both admire their culture, and (privately) I've fantasized that maybe he is one who'd like to sell his own (much smaller) house and come build a little wing on mine, and Bob's yer uncle. I find him attractive but I'm more bourgeois than he.

Funny, that. M's waaaay too upper-class for my comfort and Q might be too on the edge!

Dunno about Bidnessman. He told me he made a pic of me his screen saver. Yikes!

I really appreciate your suggestion that I try to just let things happen and see what grows, or doesn't. That's an extremely important suggestion and when I flip it over, it also shows me the way back to living life more than worrying about life. I need to develop more inner resources and courage and strength.

I really need to do that. Live my own life, pay attention to it, care about it. I find that way too difficult. Nose in navel, mind circling. Body not feeling great. But I do know this can pass, I can get better, happier, stronger.

Having y'all to talk to when I'm wobbling is literally life saving. Thank you.

hugs,
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Merry Christmas, Hopsie.

I think it's not just possible - but positively interesting - to be independently strong within oneself and still be in relationship with someone. Some of the fears of rejection, abandonment, "not being good enough" go away. Look at how long you've thrived on your own; the difficulties you've survived & overcome. You ARE strong within your SELF even on those days where cocooning is the only option.

You are strong enough to be you, to love, and to be in relationship with whomever you CHOOSE - designed as suits YOU - all at the same time. And yes, you reserve the right to make your choice any which you feel like. AND change your mind, if THAT feels necessary too. At this age, neither of us needs a home - we aren't raising children (I keep reminding myself) - we don't need that particular kind of security from a relationship anymore. DARE TO WEAR PURPLE POLKA-DOTS Hops. We really don't give two hoots about societal approval either, do we?

2021: Grannies gone wild...   LOLOLOL

[Meh]

Skep: "And off I went, down another rabbithole, with the dedication of a Jack Russell terrier..."  <  hehehehe

[Hopalong]

THANKS, Amber!
Your expression of how one can be independently strong within oneself AND do that while in a good relationship, is exactly what I am aiming for. It fired me up with new courage as I read it.

I can differ only about this bit, because although "don't need a home" is true now, it's likely not so later on, as I couldn't afford a decent assisted living situation, and don't have enough savings to cover adequate in-home help should I become frail or ill. In that sense I might indeed "need a home."

What I CAN do something about is trusting and building on emotional independence and confidence, which will make whatever the future brings much more fulfilling.

Muchas gracias for the good reminders--
Big hugs and Feliz Navidad to you and yourn!

Hops