Author Topic: Relationship/s  (Read 155781 times)

sKePTiKal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5424
Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #720 on: February 22, 2021, 02:49:02 PM »
OK, so you've learned a lot Hops. What you like/don't like; want/don't want for who you are now. You jumped in and took the risk - the emotional risk - of allowing yourself to dream with M. All while minding your boundaries and not allowing him to push you too fast. Protecting yourself.

Then, you put on your practical hat. From under that feathered brim, you quickly realized what was dysfunctional between you too -- and you went to work to make things better. And dealt with the disappointment of M's lip service to the idea, without making any substantial changes because he was getting what he wanted and it's beyond his ability to try to give you what you want. Just means he is the wrong guy for you.

I keep examining how I define commitment - and what is possible for individuals within commitment; what that looks like in real life terms. I think this changes as we grow & mature; and as we assume responsibility for our own basic needs - and even for social connection needs outside of the prime relationship - so that it may be absolutely possible to achieve that romantic commitment because the needs of earlier life aren't mingling in that definition. There isn't such pressure to "provide", "make a home", childcare responsibilities, etc.

IMO there's no one "right" definition of commitment - and sometimes I want what I want and simply don't care if anyone approves or not, as long as the interesting party is interested in the same thing - or close enough, that it's only a small gap that needs bridging. My partners - with a small number of exceptions - have mostly had some basic fundamentals in common with me and that's made things simpler and easier; fewer misunderstandings.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Hopalong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13608
Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #721 on: February 22, 2021, 06:18:00 PM »
YES to the fundamentals, Amber.

I think, though, in my present circumstances, this looms larger than for you:

Quote
the needs of [edit to make it me] LATER life aren't mingling in that definition. There isn't such pressure to "provide", "make a home"

I gotta work on this. Really make peace with my fears of old age alone in a not-nice care home. Given what I can't afford.

It's never been M's JOB to smooth that fear away for me. But he did. Repeatedly. Over and over.

So realizing he was just saying what he thought I wanted to hear....is small comfort now.

But I need to really step up and face uncertainty, even embrace it. I just have horrible fears, having spent waaaaaay too much time with elders in nursing homes substituting for their families....of being in that circumstance.

Oh well. I can still grow up more. Face facts and work on my fears.

It's never too late for that.

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

sKePTiKal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5424
Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #722 on: February 23, 2021, 08:10:29 AM »
Gotcha Hops. That's an entirely different topic too. And another deep one.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Hopalong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13608
Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #723 on: February 24, 2021, 10:54:56 AM »
Judith Sills (A Fine Romance) had a couple of great terms, like "the switch" which somebody referenced. Another one was "the curtain call" -- and it hit me that's a perfect explanation of what I was going through recently.

The quarantining, loneliness, etc, plus the "pod" safety I felt with M, plus the residual affection, etc., all added up to me totally losing my balance and beginning to tell myself I could slide back into the story (and that of course meant he also would be ready to work together to make the dream real).

I feel relieved today. I drilled in obsessively (as you've no doubt noted) re-analysing, picking away, poking, thinkingthinkingthinking...and then over the last two days re-read all 50 pages of this thread.

It was an enormous help. I saw the whole arc in clearer view. His humanity and mine. I also saw the bright lines for what they are, both mine and his. And I think I've re-let the fantasy go, with much relief. (I had let Fear of Future corrupt my courage and I'm getting it back).

I'll still see him now and then. But I'm not, hopefully and determinedly, going to lull myself again into focusing everything around him. When people tell you who they are, believe them. "Don't imagine anything different." What an insane message for a poet!

Spring is coming and life is calling and even if that means living alone, I'm going to live until I don't!

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Twoapenny

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3689
  • Becoming
Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #724 on: February 25, 2021, 12:16:27 AM »
I'm glad you've been able to see things a bit more clearly (realistically?), Hopsie, and that things are less intense.  I think it's perfectly natural to really desire companionship and affection, even more so with this winter that we've all just been through.  I do understand the Fear of Future aspect; it is a big unknown and I'm the Queen of not being able to tell myself 'what will be, will be' in many situations so I do get that.  Are there other options between 'married' and 'alone in a care home'?  I don't know what the situation is like over there and please don't feel that you have to explain all the things that aren't available or that just wouldn't work, I'm just curious as to whether there are other things in between.

I'm glad you have a spring in your step again and that things are looking a bit more constructive again xx

Hopalong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13608
Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #725 on: February 25, 2021, 06:34:52 AM »
The only unexamined option I can think of, Tupp, would be to build a small wing onto my house with a bathroom and 3rd bedroom that I could rent to a roommate. Currently it'd be hard to share my house with another person I'm not close to. Two BR (one being my office/study) and 1 small bath. I don't think it's rational to assume I could do it now. The kitchen, quite small, would be a challenge to share. A housemate would have to be somebody transient, I think. A student or such. Right now, the loss of privacy and taking in a stranger would be more stress than it's worth.

However, to add a small wing would cost half my retirement savings, which are skimpy as is. So I am just going to try to rebuild my health and keep on living until whatever happens, happens. This week I started taking walks again and am more active in the house than I've been all winter. Bought a new scale too, to keep on track. Otherwise, get more intentional about living more in the present, rather than scaring myself all the time about tomorrow. I think the most important investment I can make is in other people -- getting more involved in caring for others and focused more on the community.

I heard you mention retirement the other day, and no pension. I hope there will be some way for you to keep on saving and keep up your walks and healthy eating too. I guess the old saying "health is your greatest wealth" is really true.

I remember you asking me about co-housing, community etc stuff...and the co-housing here is out of reach financially for me. There's no other option for aging with others than old-age communities that cost currently, on average, more than double my income. I am actually very lucky to be where I am. The only drawback is isolation and fear of getting really old alone. I will try to set up some financial manager for myself who could take over if I become disabled--the stroke and subsequent brain events have forced me to think about it lately. (My best chance of safe financial management if I'm unable would be a good person from my church, I think.) Right now, I just have everything I own in trust for my daughter, so if a health catastrophe happens, a nursing home couldn't come after the house and take all my assets. At that point, to get long-term care one has to "spend down" assets to own no more than $5,000 total. Then the Medicaid program will pay for your nursing care in a home (but my fears of the quality of that care are huge--having seen too many oldsters drooping in wheelchairs in a hallway all day and subject to neglect or worse). The other option which I'm extremely reluctant to consider, would be to sell my house one day to pay for a care home for myself, and I really want to leave it to my D, who'll never have her own home otherwise. All one can hope for is a quick end but you never know. Plan as best I can and release the outcome! (And also just try to think about it LESS. Once I have all the paperwork reviewed and rationally prepared, that's the best I can do.) I know you wrestle with all this stuff too, and with a much bigger concern than I have, for your son.

I ordered veggie seeds yesterday and plan to start some indoors when they come, and begin clearing weeds out of the veggie beds. Will add compost to the beds and do what I can to garden like I mean it this time! Minimal but satisfying.

hugs
Hops

I realize I inherited a lot of my mother's anxiety, and it's a mental habit I want to work against more consciously. ADD doesn't lend to meditation easily but I might add that too. Although at the hospital the other day my BP was super LOW. Odd.

« Last Edit: February 25, 2021, 06:58:48 AM by Hopalong »
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

sKePTiKal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5424
Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #726 on: February 25, 2021, 09:04:24 AM »
One thing I know for sure, is a person can't know for sure all the details of what any imagined/researched/perceived future is. It can all look perfect when you get there - but life simply can't resist bringing up challenges, the things we thought were impossible, etc. So, making the best of what you've got is a good life skill too.

Because you could charge a roommate rent, it's possible you could recover & add savings to the cost of building a wing. But building costs right now are going up like crazy. Know that for a fact. And then, there's my recent experience of having people live here - the first time I've ever shared "home" like that. And while Hol was helpful and knows my preferences from growing up with me... no one else felt obligated to do things to my liking, and did just as they liked. One of the reasons I'm on the housecleaning binge is to "reclaim" the whole house as "my space". And put it the way I like to keep it. Even tho Hol has some good ideas, they're HER ideas; not mine. Which is why being able to build her a house was a better solution, because I was able to do it.

I think you can enjoy your single life - and continue to date, as interesting men show up Hops. More of an "all of the above" approach... who knows what will happen? Everytime I tried to pin down an identity or description thereof that was "me" - some impertinant younger person would come along and present incontrovertible evidence that I was also "this"; "that" idea was wrong; and proceed to lecture me on sticking labels on myself. LOLOLOLOL. Fortunately, she lets me return that favor.   ;)

Lots of new stuff shows up in this stage of life. Comtemplating one's own end of life is just one of them. But I have a sneaking suspicion that subconciously our feelings/thoughts about that inevitable experience also color how we live those remaining years of life too. Could be a topic for a thread, probably. There's all the practical, legal side of things - and then there's a whole unexplored territory of cultural ideas, the spiritual side, etc that color and energize our fears. Even Hol & I cycle around to this topic from time to time... and I'm getting the sense that some of it is helping her deal with her anxiety more than mine. My plan so far, consists of continuing to stay as engaged with life - and it's curveballs - and to continue learning, growing, and "seeing" enough to not depress the living shit out of myself and put myself in the "give up" space. But that choice was formed over years and lots of experiences; it suits me and my wacky creative and non-conformist personality. I figure it's got to be a whole easier to be "eccentric" the older I get, simply because the social assumption is I'm past being important or useful to society. To me, this feels like true freedom to BE.

HA! Hold my beer and watch this...
:D
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Twoapenny

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3689
  • Becoming
Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #727 on: February 25, 2021, 09:39:32 AM »
Well first, I am still laughing at Skep trying not depress the living shit out of herself :)  Lol, there is a T shirt slogan in there :)  And yes to being eccentric, mad as a box of frogs, not giving a crap what other people think and all of that as well :)

I do hear you though, Hopsie, and the situation is similar here (I just wondered if you had other possibilities in place over there but it seems not).  It's somewhat baffling to me that we've created a society where people are living longer than ever before, thanks to science and medicine, and where we're all encouraged to make work our primary focus and own a home, but then are expected to live out our old age with little or no help and our only source on income being the home we live in.  I feel there must be a better way to do this!  There is a balance, isn't there, between living for the moment and focusing on now, but also trying to put some sort of safety net in place as we know the state sponsored one is full of holes :) I do like the sound of you focusing on health and living life, though.  I can understand having someone else living with you may not be an easy option.  I think it's frustrating when, having spent so many years caring for others, as you have, there's no-one around to care for you.  It feels like an unkind joke has been played.  But I will keep everything crossed that good things and experiences are coming your way, Hopsie, along with warmer weather and less threat from Covid xx

Hopalong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13608
Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #728 on: March 08, 2021, 12:29:31 PM »
I'm getting a lot friendlier with my inner eccentric or wacko or just peace-loving person too.

Still seeing M about once a week, nice dinner, lots of chat (mostly his), and it's a pleasant but less-interesting routine than it used to be. I see more slivers of th darker side of his personality more clearly, as well as my own. Neither of us is glowingly wonderful, and as long as I'm compassionate, it's okay to continue for now anyway. I'm almost relieved to be looking with clearer eyes at areas of incompatibility that are good reasons for me not to wish it'd turned into a lifetime.

But while I'm here....

I loaned him a book by a dear friend and mentor and literary doyenne in this region, now in her early 80s, who'd valued my young poetry enough to secure me a book through the National Endowment for the Arts grant that funded her small press, which is now a regional powerhouse for poets and fiction writers. She's been generous to other writers at an indescribable level and had done the same for me, many years back. She showed me my value and I was astonished.

She sent me her latest volume which is a collection of heartfelt poems about her grief for her partner, whom she'd found dead of a heart attack on her neighbor's lawn when he'd gone out to chase their escaped dog. I like her poetry here and there but most of all, I genuinely love her.

I was thinking of M's loss of his wife two years ago because he's mentioned her more lately (mostly about exotic trips they took) -- and thought maybe it would be meaningful or helpful to him. I forgot that he takes everything written that comes into his hands as an opportunity to be a critic. He identifies very powerfully with that...power. So he rains contempt on anything that's not as brilliant as he is, basically. Think of your most pompous professor, brilliant with an ego the size of Moby Dick, and add steroids (she said, nastily).

Anyway, he tells me with intensity where she ranks in comparison to me three different times--the minute I answer the phone or walked into his house--despite my recoil and attempts to change the subject...it's his first and only response and, being M, he repeats and repeats and repeats his opinion...

"You're a much better poet than she is!". Okay fine, he's welcome to think that. But it's almost the only thing he has to say. And, this is hard to convey, but it's the glee with which he criticizes, his joy in labeling someone as less than elevated or stupendous or whatever he respects...there's this...nastiness in it. I really didn't like it. She is my friend and I've talked to him about her a lot, and at one point we talked about visiting her together and the idea of introducing them brought me joy, because she is so warm and generous of spirit everyone who meets her falls in love. If he didn't enjoy her work as much as mine, he could've just said something like, "Truth is, I like your poetry better and hers didn't do as much for me." I would've understood that and said once, it'd have been fine.

But as he pounded his who-WINS opinion at me, for a competition I never entered nor would, and it helped me see another layer. M is driven by insecurity, despite his ridiculous and well-earned level of success, and for him it's ALL and ALWAYS about who's good-better-best. Never just about the humanity of anyone, nor grace. It's where do they RANK in whatever hierarchy he's focusing on (whether professional or cultural or status especially), and in particular, do they (or I, in this instance) bow down to HIS assessment of their value? He can be really condescending and scathing about describing people in his professional world...particularly younger "woke" women in the department, as a matter of fact. He's dripping contempt when he describes them, mocking not just their ideas but their tones of voice, their ignorance, etc. He does the same when he mocks people with country accents, etc. I really dislike it. A lot.

Anyway, when he applied this reflex to a friend I have loved and valued for many years, and unnecessarily, it was helpful in moving my disengagement another bit.

I understand that from his lofty and probably terrified perch, he views status as everything, and probably thought he was giving me a compliment by denigrating my friend's work. One thing that is very deep for me about poetry and creative writing is that I do NOT view it as competition, and never will. To me, the impulse to write is sacred and I respect that ember in all others who have the same dream. I taught children who couldn't spell but found extraordinary metaphors in their minds. I taught undergraduates as a Teaching Fellow while earning my graduate degree, and had the same attitude toward them. "Grading" was torture for me because of the gut attachment to loving the writer more than the writing.

That's a huge difference between M and me. I'm not "better" than he is and vice versa. But his way of clawing everything into a competition, a performance, and gauging others' value by where they stand on a series of ladders: degrees, publications, plaudits, awards, prizes, wealth, social status, native intelligence, and so forth...I completely understand that this is to some degree characteristic of the academic world. It just has gone all the way to his soul, that clawing need to be the Biggest-Best-Brilliantest, all of which, even though it's true in one area, leaks into everything he sees and values.

My dad was a quiet success in his field and much respected. Yet I never once heard him tear down a colleague -- or anyone ever, in fact -- to make himself feel more important. And I realize this is sad for M, though he's happy exercising his power in the language that rewards him (he's not sad about it, he relishes his critical role).

Sigh. Poor guy. Aging and losing his relevance and power drip by drip is very hard on him. He dreads irrelevance more than death itself. Recognition and reward and applause drive him and he's earned all of it. He just can't stop.

He has another very interesting reward coming in the fall...he's been invited by the Russian government to lecture at their flagship cultural university on his historical field. It's ironic. And he's very excited about the trip. He'll soon be off to California and Costa Rica and then later, Europe and Moscow. I know he's somewhat sorry not to have a companion along, but he's going to get public praise and applause at the other end, and that's what matters most. I'm truly happy for him.

And very happy that I'm not going along. It's not fun for me any more, without the shared life dream. It's also exhausting, and until I'm sure I'm healthy, I'm not going to stress myself with all those time zones! I want my life to get smaller and simpler now, not grander. He needs that level of adrenaline and I don't.

So there's an update. It's been an interesting adventure with M, but for me, it's down to an occasional evening listening to him talk about himself, and enjoying great cooking and playing with Pooch. That's all it'll ever be, and finally, that's OK. I'll soon be returning to the oldsters dating site online and one never knows.

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Twoapenny

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3689
  • Becoming
Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #729 on: March 09, 2021, 01:01:40 AM »
(((((Hops)))))))  Whilst I'm sorry things didn't work out for you, I'm also glad that your rose tinted specs have come off and you're just seeing things more clearly - and able to accept them as that.  I've not really anything useful to say as you've said it all yourself much better than I can.  I only had one thing I wanted to mention:  " I'm not "better" than he is and vice versa".  I think you are better than him and I hope you find someone better, too ;) xx


Hopalong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13608
Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #730 on: March 09, 2021, 08:55:18 AM »
Thanks, Tupp.

I'd still like M to be happy, because I care about him. I see what's vulnerable and want to be gentle with that part. Every now and then I just get sick of the ego.

I'm just still working at my untwining. I have to adapt to being alone and have begun to face that being around him is both pleasurable at times and also risky.

Being as alone as I am/feel is a big challenge. Having M in touch daily is both a comfort and an avoidance.

I think I'll continue to get better at being on my own again. I'm just sometimes a little shocked at how difficult it's been to not look to his voice (in email, on the phone) as an anchor of reassurance. I think I've come to doubt how much he'd really be there for me in future now anyway. His hyperbole about his steadfast support might have just been the same kind of hyperbole he always has used.

And given that the shared dream is over, it's probably going to be better for me not to think of him first thing in the morning (where's the morning email?) etc. Yet I still do. It's a reflex, a habit, and will take time to let go of.

I'm making big headway. Spring is here. But it's been shocking how deeply embedded/entwined I got. My theory is that so many years -- decades -- of life spent focused on Nmom made me DEEPLY comfortable with tending to M, who is as insecure as she was and in some ways almost as narcissistic.

He's a lot more charming and a lot more fun than she was. Maybe that's the difference. But recognizing the enormity of lifetime "training" to attend to someone very narcissistic is what's startling me right now.

Not in a bad way. In a learning, wake-up way.

hugs
Hops

I'm holding all that and trying to find the right balance.
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Twoapenny

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3689
  • Becoming
Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #731 on: March 09, 2021, 10:16:36 AM »
All perfectly understandable, Hopsie, and all things take time to adapt to and for readjustment to take place.  And I think the thing with a lot of 'narcissistic' (I only put that in inverted commas because you can put all sorts of different words in there, but basically anyone a bit manipulative/selfish/self absorbed and so on) people is that they often are good fun, charming, helpful (to an extent) and so on.  No-one's perfect so it's understandable that anyone would be willing to put up with some imperfections in someone else.  Always a balance between a person's good characteristics and their not so good ones and not wanting to be alone, particularly as one gets older and even more particularly during this horrible pandemic, is just very human.  I do understand (and see so many echos in my own situation with fair weather friends and the dirty old man next door - my entire life has been about prioritising other people and it's so easy to not even realise it's what's happening).  That said, I am glad you were able to see it in M and not continue down the rabbit hole, as hard as it is to face reality sometimes (says Tupp, who's had enough of reality for one day and is planning a box set festival later on today :) ).  I'm keeping everything crossed that the right balance is there to be found and that there's a nice bloke on the end of it :) xx

Hopalong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13608
Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #732 on: March 09, 2021, 10:09:35 PM »
Thanks, (((((Tupp))))).

I feel a lot better than I did earlier.
Beautiful day. I finished editing my poet-friend's novel, which I did intensively as a farewell gift for her. She has meant so much to me, the only regular connection I have with another poet IRL who gets that outlier, unconventional take on life and culture and everything...and she's going to be listing her house and moving with her cranky partner to another state where her daughter and adorable granddaughter live. It's a wonderful move for her as her relationship's been often unhappy (but she can't quit him) as she'll have so much daily contact with her close family. She's also excited to live in/near a big city again as she's ready for a last big adventure.

I'm really happy for her but sad for me. Apart from that one time I wrote here about (the stupid social-distance fight on a walk) she and I have been very close and extremely supportive of each other for nearly 10 years-ish now. I'll miss that connection a great deal. We'll write and call and maybe even visit, but her upcoming departure has been weighing on me. Today she reminded me that there ARE good poets in this community I can connect with, and she's right.

So I wanted to do a BANGUP job on her book, and I did. Three hundred pages of close editing. She was thrilled and I choked up telling her I did it as a goodbye gift. It's off to the designer (my young graphic artist friend, I introduced them) and I'm so proud of her.

I think this spring will be a slow and tenative re-awakening and I hope, a building of new friendships when the opportunity comes.

A nice bloke at the end of it would be awesome (as long as he can tap dance).

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Hopalong

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13608
Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #733 on: March 10, 2021, 03:27:07 PM »
Just had a great time with my T realizing how much I've come awake, in a way. I feel clarity like crazy. Thanks to Pfizer, probably. LOL.

The cues and little pokes etc. from M just aren't taking effect as they used to.

I'm not angry. I'm feeling relief. Glad I recognized another manifestation of old lessons I will re-learn as often as I do...and in time. To liberate myself. To refocus on what matters to ME, in my own life.

How lucky I am. How many good people I know. How much possibility there is until there isn't.

How free I feel right now. (High on vaccination #2, for sure. Only two hours in the line today and much of it chatting with an attractive man my age. HAH!)

Life feels good and I feel GRATEFUL!

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Twoapenny

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3689
  • Becoming
Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #734 on: March 11, 2021, 10:22:11 AM »
That was a lovely gift for your friend, Hopsie, and I hadn't realised she was the one that was moving away.  That is a shame, I know there was the little walking tiff but we all do things like that sometimes and one who ha in ten years isn't bad!  Was it her poetry that M was being a bit dismissive of.  I'm so glad that the clarity is coming with M, as well.  It's very hard to extricate oneself from a relationship when strong feelings are there, less so when it all feels a bit less intense, I think?  It's nice when one of those 'my head knows I shouldn't but my heart makes me want to' bubbles bursts and the compulsion just goes (or at least lessens enough to be less of an issue).  And a second vaccine as well!  Truly good news.  It should give you so much more protection (in a few weeks, I think, if it's the same as the ones they're using here?).  I do think from what I've read that vax + mask + hand washing and keeping space will mean that pesky Covid will have little opportunity to take up residence and that can only be a good thing.