I just found out - should I tell his daughter?

[Ella]

Hi everyone,
---sorry this is so long!--
I'm new here and glad to have found you. A few days ago I started doing some research about emotional abuse and, while that didn't seem to really fit, I found a page about abuse and N's and whoa! everything fell into place. I have been with my fiance for 7 years and his behavior has gradually gotten worse, to the point where I really don't want to spend time with him, but I'm afraid what will happen to him if I leave him. I'm probably afraid what will happen to me too, but I'm a pretty strong person and figure I'll get over it - and pretty sure that I'd be a lot happier in the long run. He is not a strong person, however, has started suffering from anxiety and panic attacks (probably because in the last couple of years he has become almost totally dependent on me both emotionally and financially), and is drinking way too much to do anything productive.

On one hand I feel relieved to discover that all of these weird behaviors fit so perfectly into a defined disorder - I finally have some confirmation  that I'm not crazy to think there is something wrong here. (In his world, if there's a problem, it's always with ME.) At the same time, the outlook for recovery is pretty dim - and it seems like it's going to just get worse unless I find a way to deal with it.

So there's a couple of things that I want to say and ask here. First, a lot of you are dealing with N parents. I don't know if my father was an N but he was so messed up and violently abusive, both physically and verbally, that as a child I would dread the hour that he was coming home from work and used to pray before dinner that I wouldn't drop my fork or do something else that would cause him to hit me. (And we weren't a particularly religious family.) The point is that parents can cause a tremendous amount of damage to their kids, and that can take a very long time and a lot of painful emotional work to heal. But I hope that those of you who are suffering from the fallout keep the courage and are fortunate to find good people to help you. (I'm 44 now and some years ago did a type of therapy, based on the work of David Grove, that was extremely helpful to me.)

Now to the questions:
My N has a 21 year old daughter who hasn't spent much time with her dad until this last month. She was raised by a violent, alcoholic mother who wouldn't even acknowledge that N was the dad in the early years, and then told lies about that by saying "he just left us."  This beautiful girl has now pretty much cut the ties with her mother, and is on her own. She has been corresponding with her dad by email for the last few years, but hasn't seen him very much. Then last month she went with us to another country, for the entire month, and unfortunately he went off on some weird N mind trips that really disgusted her - and probably scared her too. So I'm wondering if, for her peace of mind and future self protection, I should suggest to her that she check out information on N personalities?

The second question is, am I being naive if I think that I can maintain a  relationship with this guy and not lose myself? (Why I would want to is another question!) So far he's been the type that has one steady relationship (me) which he tries to nurture (he's faithful, and tries to be supportive, as much as possible within the limits of the disorder) in order to assure a constant supply of attention (NS?). I've learned not to correct him when he's wrong about something (let him find out on his own) and I let him be the total point of attention when we are out in public. Fortunately, we don't live together, and I have plenty of freedom to pursue my own activities and friendships where I can "be myself."  

I plan to make some changes in my behaviors so that I won't be in situations where his behavior creates a problem for me. I don't know if that will work in helping me be more comfortable, or how he will respond, but it seems the more compassionate solution than to just say "you're a loser, good bye!"  If the situation were reversed (okay, me not being N but being disfunctional in other ways because of childhood traumas) I would be devastated if the person I loved the most took that route.  Rather, I would hope that they would give me time and support while I tried to deal with it.

Can N's change, with help? Do your N's know that they are N's? I'd be interested in hearing about your experiences.

Thanks.

[Alan]

Welcome the the board.  You will find your answers.

1) If the daughter is reasonably normal, I would inform her, especially if she doesn't know her father or have a close relationship.  I believe people should have the knowledge when possible.

2) In regards to living with an N,  here's a good article and website to begin with.  Is the cost too high for you?

http://samvak.tripod.com/npdtips.html

[CC]

Hi Ella,

I had to speak up because I am not a fan of the website that Alan directed you to (sorry Alan, personal opinion)   The man who created it is a self-proclaimed narcissist and his followers tend to perpetuate anger and sarcasm with regard to recovery. Even in his honest attempts to help people (and he does provide some positive information), his narcissism is apparent in the manipulative marketing/money making links to his websites.  Just to clue you in, notice how many times he says 'ME' and 'MY' on his homepage!

Sorry if you get confused with the conflicting remarks, but each of us had our own experience with beginning recovery: none of which are insignificant.  I suggest however that if you are looking for some good, relatively objective information that you check out the "books that have helped" thread last posted on September 24th.  Most of the authors of these books have based their content on group research and professional studies rather than personal experience.  I don't think Sam Vaknin's site is a good place to 'start' although when you are better equipped you may get something out of it.  If you do go there, please take it with a grain of salt until you have read up in other places.  Also, try this link:

http://www.n-courage.net/

[CC]

Just wanted to mention that Alan is a valuable contributor to this board and has made other very good comments and submitted worthy info (such as the radio broadcast coming up this week).  We just happen to disagree in this one area  

[Alan]

CC:

I appreciate the words.  After listening to the radio program, the way it was edited, leaves the basic info, very little justifaction, etc.

I'm glad we can agree to disagree.  If I was able to do that with my N, then things might have been different.

[Alan]

CC:

I appreciate the words.  After listening to the radio program, the way it was edited, leaves the basic info, very little justifaction, etc.

I'm glad we can agree to disagree.  If I was able to do that with my N, then things might have been different.

[Ella]

Thanks, CC and Alan, for your comments. Actually it was Vaknin's site  that clued me in on this whole thing to start with. I read as much as I could find on his site (the Q&A's as well as the articles). But given that this is such an important situation, I'd like to check out what other experts in the field have to say. I did feel that Vaknin might be a little biased.

FYI, the timing couldn't have been better. I recently sold my house and moved to an apartment close to my daughter's new school. Then just this weekend we found out that the 3 bed apartment downstairs from my fiance's will be available at the end of the month. He'd like me to move there instead, so I could then share some of that space with him (but he'd keep his own apartment too in case he "needed a break" from me).  Anyway based on Vaknin's info I have zero interest in this arrangement and was able to say "No" without feeling quilty or questioning whether I was being "fair".  Maybe in two years when my daughter's out of school and IF I don't have to work a day job - he likes to stay up all night and plays loud music whenever the mood suits him; anytime I stay over with him I have to plan that it will be a 24 hour date and take a nap ahead of time.

[Acappella]

Hi Ella,

Congratulations on the confident "No" to an arrangement that sounded like it took your fiance into account more than you and your daughter.  After listening to the radio program Alan alerted us to, I am increasingly confident that being self absorbed or egotistical isn’t the core of narcissistic behavior so much as being self serving at the expense of and with disregard and disrespect of the needs of others, particularly the expressed needs of others: feeling entitled with a lack of empathy for the impact of that entitlement.  Your fiancé’s apartment sounded like it was all about, and only about his needs and that seems a very clear danger sign.

Here is a link I found helpful in providing some more detailed perspective regarding Vaknin and narcissism:
The specific page linked to here reviews Vaknin’s book and is from a site referred to (if I recall correctly) by Richard Grossman in one of his posts.

http://healingnpd.org/Vaknin-revisited.html

Thanks again Alan for the radio show alert!  I found it very informative and even a little entertaining to boot!   How refreshing.

I too just discovered this narcissism system I've been struggling in and was relieved to find Vaknin's site.  I felt so extremely exhausted, alone and beaten down that Vaknin’s ardent, feverish tone felt like a strong dose of protectiveness.  His subtext of no body being worse than a narcissist (a competitive world view in which even when he looses he wins that "scarce" resource, attention and power) was like a megaphone yelling, “get out while you can”, “save yourself!”.  I needed that to stay in my relationship with my husband with N traits and I needed that also to (seriously) consider leaving him.  To move on I also feel I needed more than Vaknin's limited perspective could offer.  

I also noticed something odd in Vaknin’s text.   (Not necessarily the “me” thing as I have heard that speaking from “I” is acknowledgement of owning what one is expressing.  People often use “you” when speaking of themselves and once aware of that I caught myself doing so when I was uncomfortable owning what I was saying.   Does that apply to using “me”?  CC? )  Anyway, he wrote about no other narcissists except himself (instead of Narcissism Revisited should have entitled it Vaknin's Narcissism Revisted).  Also he made narcissism sound so grandiose, a super/sub human condition. It was if he had some sort of vested interest in Narcissism not being treatable.  He was lacking empathy and compassion (and the insight it brings) while he wrote about his own lack of empathy and compassion.  Well that makes sense doesn't it!  

Take & give care all,
Echo's voice  

[Acappella]

Ella,

Should you tell your fiancé’s daughter?

That to me is tricky.  

Yes, I agree passing along resources is a responsible, compassionate part of being part of a team, a family, a society.

I also wonder: Have you already discussed your concerns about the narcissism with your fiancé?  Doing so before passing along information to his daughter also seems to me an important part of being consistent with the values of being responsible, and compassionate and respecting your fiance even if he doesn't reciprocate.  Scary perhaps too?  

My husband with N traits has been most receptive when I presented the Narcissist topic with the admission that I too have "complementary" issues or I wouldn't have spent so much time with him.  

His (your fiance's daughter) is lucky to have you in her life as a person who cares enough to share resources and is actually capable of showing that is part of caring.

[Ella]

Echo,
I appreciate your input. I had checked out Dr. Grossman's site - lucky me, I live in Boston, so I plan to see if he has openings.

I also found a site that is moderated by four diagnosed narcissists who have been in therapy. NPD: Ask a Narcissist, at http://frost.bbboy.net/healnpd-viewforum?forum=33

My fiance is probably at his lowest point ever as far as self esteem goes, as he's been looking for work for over a year. I think that has certainly contributed to the problems, he's become much more sensitive to imagined slights/threats. We actually had a conversation a few weeks ago (about whether anyone could seriously think that they were always right) in which I finally threw up my hands and said "Yippee! I'm always wrong. Now I don't have to take any responsibility. I'm finally liberated!"  
Which did make him laugh and see how ridiculous the argument is. "Yes! I'm trying to liberate you!"

So this might not be the best time to confront him with more "faults". However, he does think that me going for counseling is a good idea, so maybe something can grow out of that.

I am divided on the issue of what to share/not share with his daughter. A big negative is that he hasn't been medically diagnosed. A plus is that it could help her see that he's not consciously trying to be a jerk, so she wouldn't internalize that, and she might also pick up some coping strategies. It won't be an issue for a couple of months yet since she stayed overseas - so it's something to discuss with a counselor.

Something else I want to share with respect to the earlier discussions about Vaknin. My fiance's father is a very well known psychotherapist. Both he and the mother have told me that they are so happy that I'm in thier son's life - one says "that he is a totally different person" and the other says "for which we are all grateful."  At first it really confused me (not to mention alarming!), but now I wonder what dynamic has been going on.  I truly do value many aspects of his personality - maybe having this "legitimate" source of NS has had an effect on him.

I am encouraged that you have been able to discuss the subject with your husband. I too feel stronger knowing what I'm dealing with, or that at least it has a name. What I still don't know is whether this is what I want/need in my life. (But he took the No on the apartment pretty well.)

[seeker]

Greetings Ella,

I am relatively new to the board and don't chime in very often, but here goes...It's a testament to your sensitivity that you are concerned with this young lady's relationship to her father and her emotional health.  It might also be a sign that you may be taking on too much responsibility for their relationship.  Don't get me wrong, I still struggle with the To tell or not to tell?  question.  And you want to prevent harm if you can.  And there's no right or wrong answer, just a matter of judgment.  

I asked my therapist a similar but slightly different question: "How do I help?"  People I care about are living with a raging N.  Her answer was: "If they ask you and it's a request that you feel is appropriate for you."

It might feel like withholding vital information, but it's a bit like parenting when you have to decide when you tell your kids what's what and if you let them discover it on their own.  I'm not going to tell them I inhaled during college, but if they ask me, I'll try to have an appropriate answer ready.  OK, a lame example...

Providing information may have consequences...is the young lady in question mature enough to handle it?  How would the N respond if he knew you told her?  Also, telling the N that he is an N is another touchy subject.  I recommend Stop Walking on Eggshells for how to approach someone with an "egosonic" disorder.  That is, everyone else knows and part of the disorder is to deny, deny, deny.  A catch-22.  (My dad doesn't take the medicine for the problem he doesn't have...ugh!) For that matter, I recommend this book for how to approach others coping with it.  There may be other ways to communicate your concern without labelling the N.  Echo had great suggestions.

Another catch-22 (wow, i'm really droning on here!) is that many people esp. Ns won't get help until they hit bottom.  Rescuing vs. tough love is really a rotten decision to have to think over.  

Just some suggestions.  Hope they help and good luck!  S.

PS to Echo: I missed the radio show.  I was gratified to read your distinction between self-absorption and exploitative N.  I can be pretty "absent" and daydreamy and was starting to wonder if I was N even though my therapist assured me I wasn't.  It is my way of coping with overwhelming demands.  Funny how we take all this stuff on ourselves!

[Anonymous]

Boston.  Dr. Grossman in person.  Resource rich you are!  

And speaking of resources, thanks for the link alert.  

You wrote:

I am encouraged that you have been able to discuss the subject with your husband. I too feel stronger knowing what I'm dealing with, or that at least it has a name.

I have found that not only am I actually able to speak with J (husband with N traits) but that had I just ditched the relationship with him I'd have thrown the baby out with the bathwater.  Meaning (so far) I get something out of staying.  "What am I getting out of this?" may be the only focus of a narcissistic type & concomitantly it seems not enough of a focus for the Echo type.  

In addition to spending time with someone who has an excellent sense of humor & appreciation of the nuances of things (J.), I got a big surprise through a better understanding this Narcissist/Echo paradigm & moreover by doing so within the context of staying in the relationship.  Initially, I felt that if I understood him more, focused on him yet again that I would loose my frail grip on what little veil of skin that was left on my bones.  The real irony I didn’t expect was that I would then also change my perspective of the relative balance of power in the relationship.  As echo types, the very thing that N's suggest is our weakness is a source of strength.  Anyway, more about that later if anyone is interested...

I am not suggesting to go father into a relationship in order to learn & I have learned that I am finally in a relationship that is good enough that I can afford to stay & work my way out via the way I got in: Instead of just fleeing as I have in past from worse relationships where I looked at it all in hindsight - a lot of arses all in a row. Now that is a visual.  

Humor is great.  Second perhaps only to music in its universal, bridge building, soul tickling powers.  No wonder his parents are glad you are around.  

Speaking the parents :
"he is a totally different person" Whoa! Really? What credit are they giving him for the changes he may or not have made?  Oh the pressure on you!

not to mention alarming!

 Too late, you just did!  
"for which we are all grateful." In what way?  In a way that addresses your needs?  It sounds like it can be true of course in many respects & is it balanced?

Early in our relationship J used what I now refer to as Pedestal Pandering.  He liked me & so "knew me" in a sense yet he did so without asking many questions about most of my life or my interests etc.  He saw strengths ONLY & could not see weaknesses.  Moreover, he complemented me, noticed ONLY those strengths that were relevant to serving him.  What I didn't get until I lived through it (and almost didn't live through it as it was an exhausting depleting lesson) is that I was not allowed weaknesses or limits in the context of this relationship & he (and I to some extent) saw my healthy needs as weaknesses.  

What I still don't know is whether this is what I want/need in my life. (But he took the No on the apartment pretty well.)

Is that a bit of relief I hear?  As if you have a reprieve granted by his tolerance?

I too am struggling with identifying what I want/need.  I know I want a job I like so I am going to go focus on that now. I need a life, more options, outside of this relationship.  Can't compare apples & oranges when I spend all my time under a single tree.......    

[Acappella]

Hi Seeker, you wrote

Ns won't get help until they hit bottom. Rescuing vs. tough love is really a rotten decision to have to think over.

Your are right on target as far as the radio guests were concerned (except for Valknin who is clearly in love with the problem not the solutions, what would he be after all without the problem?  Sad.).  

The radio show is still free on line this week. There is poetry and mythology and excellent suggestions.  

Regarding your point, Seeker, Dr. Jeffery Young said that N's seek treatment only when "deflated" in some way.  Divorce, job loss,

an ultimatum

that threatens their N supply.  That is the tough part I suppose.  There is a lot of variability in what is "rock-bottom" and how NS is defined.  

The "love" part, as I understood it, was what Dr. Jeffery Young spoke about as N's getting in touch with their vulnerabilities.  

Last year, after doing lots of things that didn't work, I began employing  some of the techniques noted on the radio program.  I was not doing so very consciously though.   Getting confirmation about possible solutions and hearing it organized and articulated on the radio show (and here)is very helpful as was rediscovering the problem in an organized way, it had a name etc.

When my husband lost his job last year I employed a mix of focusing on his vulnerabilities & setting limits (like mentioned in a very general way in the radio show).  (By the way, it took a male therapist’s "permission", a father figure sort of experience, for J. to hear and begin to consider vulnerabilities were an ok thing to acknowledge having).  

Ella wrote

at his lowest point ever as far as self esteem goes, as he's been looking for work for over a year

Work is such an ego hub!  (Perhaps that is why I am still searching for a career/job? Hummm. ) J. (husband with N traits) lost his job last year & weird but true it was very good for both of us.  Hard in many ways too of course & yet so far, given the circumstances, the losses were worth the gains - in many ways the most direct route to them.

In retrospect what worked for me, for us was to:

1) Acknowledge & even morning a way, the loss of his imagined self - the image that went with the job but that he could have turned his energy toward redeeming through a different job.  Work is all in J's family.
2) Support his search for even a shred of his true or truer self. Micromovements are key here. Patience, appreciating what may appear to be small clues and gains.
3) Not become a martyr (at least not more of one) and keep clear about my wants & needs. Say no to meanness and yes to vulnerability.

(Not necessarily in that order 1-3 & in fact necessarily often in the reverse order 3-1 especially in my head.)

It is like Ella noted:  

a "legitimate" source of NS has had an effect on him.

What I have found most tricky is (all of the above actually   but )#2 especially. J.'s not having had a true sense of self makes it hard to give legitimate support to "him" as he doesn't & so I don't know who/what to support.  He has a lot of work to do on his inner self I on the other hand have work to do on my outter self, meaning I don't interact with the world.  This forum is a start..training wheels for the ride of my life.  Yeeesh.  Gotta get a job.  

P.S.  
Seeker wrote:

Funny how we take all this stuff on ourselves!

Yeah, we are the first to ask if we are narcissistic and to apologize for our voices:  

(wow, i'm really droning on here!)

 

As a somewhat shame drenched long poster myself I am trying not to feel bad about the length of my posts. After all there is a scroll bar.  I notice so many apologies here for the length of posts...sorry this is so long etc. etc. Well at least I, for one, don't desire you to apologize for droning.    I enjoy reading as much as I can when I can.  If some one has a problem with posts they can and have said so.  I trust you all will do so regarding my posts too.  Anyway, I have to focus on choosing and pursuing a career and job soon so life will edit the lenth of my posts soon enough!

[Ella]

Hi Seeker,
Thanks for responding. There's nothing lame about your example - when his daughter asks why or what or how, I might then be able to respond appropriately without being disloyal. What I want to do is support his effort to build a relationship with her, but not interfere. And she (bless her!) has expressed that she realizes she needs to be sensitive to my feelings for him so as not to put me in the middle.  I also don't want to label him since that's my diagnosis, not a professional's.  (And if I say N and she gets on Vaknin's site she might think there's no hope at all!) Thanks also for the book suggestions - I have a stack I'm ordering from Amazon and I will put Eggshells on the list because that is exactly what it has felt like. It's interesting that I used to be quite capable of holding my own in any argument or discussion, damn the torpedoes! - in my 20's someone once told me to "put a cover on my racket", as in, way too direct with what you have to say.

So maybe this is some kind of karma, something that I've needed to teach me all about being more sensitive.   And maybe why I like it? As the pendulum swings.

Wait, I'm sure that I still can be that way, but for reasons I'm not too clear on I don't want to be that way. Oops, getting into new territory here - I like the feeling of having someone to admire and look up to and feel safe with.    (following is stream of consciousness - I won't apologize!) There's a precise moment, in the first year, watching the movie Apollo 13 and he's (Tom Hanks?) stuck up there and looking out of the porthole at tiny earth and she's down there in Florida looking up at tiny moon and I felt like for the first time I knew what that bond was - "you mean everything to me". I felt so safe. I'm not saying he or I felt "you mean everything," but I realized for the first time that it could be that way between people, in a calm, accepting way and not a manufactured frenzy. When I said "I love you" what I was feeling was "you have some habits that I can't stand and you do things that make me crazy, but you are someone who is actively struggling TO BE, to understand and express what the difference is between what you are bombarded with in this world and what you value." So that's what I said: "I love you because this is a core feeling that I have.  I see that you are willing to struggle with the world, and I value that. And, I'm not  too happy about being in love with you because you do some things that I don't like."

I've been waiting a couple of years for that "safe" feeling to come back. Lately I haven't felt safe at all, there are too many unpredictable swings, the most innocent little eggs explode. But when I think about it, what happened - He started feeling like how could anyone feel safe because of outside eggs like the economy falling apart and Sept. 11? I lost four friends and colleagues, and most of my  business - I'm self employed as a financial writer, that market is dead. I was so tossed by the loss of these people I had a friend do a three part  illustration of "Bin Laden Bin Flushed" and had it printed on toilet paper. The following year my brother and my mother both passed away. These outside eggs are part of the reason why my "N" is so nutzo lately - yes, I'm still in love (am I making excuses or being rational?) - because the world has gone whacked and what he really wants is to take care of me and everyone else in the world. It's why I fell in love: If you have grandiose ideals, it's okay with me,  as long as they are noble! (So I'm an N too!   )

Echo, I'm going to do (yet) another reply (no apologies!) to some of the subleties you raised. Thank you for being here!