Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves

[Hopalong]

((((Tupp))))

It's a defense against disappointment to zero in on all the group's mistakes and inadequate leaders. I understand it completely.

I wonder if it'd help you to not be so concerned about the logic, legalistic consistency, or proper organization of their behavior? (Sounds like an echo of how you feel about The System which makes it so hard to trust any bureaucrat, though I know these are just regular people.)

What if, instead, you could not focus on performance, but just on feeling good about being a part of something. Not with grand or perfectionistic goals, but just to be there (NO, not as constant dishwasher!) with other benign human beings, pottering toward some kind of good goal, however imperfectly.

I think you just need to be in rooms with other benign human beings. As often as you can.

Hugs
Hops

[Twoapenny]

Two I read your last few posts here about intentional community. I don't know what I think about it and don't feel I'm the best to give advice.

I guess we have to explore all options we know about as part of our due diligence in life. Even if a lot of the options end up being no-goes. If we don't at least ponder it we can't even rule them out.

There are so many pros and cons to consider in that scenario.

What is this most recent group that you are doing tea duty for?

I think that's it, G, it's about exploring options isn't it, and seeing if something may or may not work.  It's just an idea to look into at the moment.  Our current situation isn't sustainable and the prospect of putting him into a care home doesn't appeal to me just yet, partly because of dealing with officialdom, partly because standards are low, partly because I don't think it will change my life much - I'll still be on my own and worn out from working long hours, so too tired to get out there and meet people.  So I'm wondering whether sharing house space would be an option.  It is nice to be in the position of having time to check something out, rather than being in a crisis and having to make a decision quickly (which is what I usually find myself doing) so I'm just going to look on it as a project and see what it turns up

The group is a very nice group of local parents who all have children with educational or health problems.  I've been going for a couple of months now and it's been great - yesterday just felt a bit less great and my antennae popped up a bit.  It's no biggie, I'm just noticing things and filing things into 'keep an eye on that'.  It's more to do with my own problems/patterns and not wanting to get myself into another rut where I'm doing too much and feeling resentful.  Just need to keep a balance there   How are you doing with your decision making situation?  xx

[Twoapenny]

((((Tupp))))

It's a defense against disappointment to zero in on all the group's mistakes and inadequate leaders. I understand it completely.

I wonder if it'd help you to not be so concerned about the logic, legalistic consistency, or proper organization of their behavior? (Sounds like an echo of how you feel about The System which makes it so hard to trust any bureaucrat, though I know these are just regular people.)

What if, instead, you could not focus on performance, but just on feeling good about being a part of something. Not with grand or perfectionistic goals, but just to be there (NO, not as constant dishwasher!) with other benign human beings, pottering toward some kind of good goal, however imperfectly.

I think you just need to be in rooms with other benign human beings. As often as you can.

Hugs
Hops

Thanks Hops, all is okay, it was just my antennae popping up.  The only reason I mention the emails and other bits is because that's what they've asked me to help out with.  I don't mind helping but don't want to end up repeating things because people keep changing their minds and getting caught in power struggles because people aren't speaking to each other.  Similarly don't want to fall into the role of 'passive listener' (which is what yesterday felt like a bit) or tea lady!  So it was just noticing things as they come up and giving myself a bit of a reminder not to fall into those old patterns and go down old paths again.  I'm sure it will be okay, I've messaged the lady in charge and asked her if she can speak to the chap she's kept a bit in the dark before she goes on her holidays so hopefully if she does that things will settle down a bit again xx

[Twoapenny]

Just pondering as I feel sooooo ill today.  We haven't had a major change in our routine - we did go out to meet some friends on Tuesday and I was tired afterwards but it was a nice day and not terribly busy, just a bit more driving than usual.  I'm not in my mad phase of my cycle so I doubt it's hormones and I haven't eaten or taken anything different to normal.  So either Tuesday was too much for me (despite the fact it wasn't a huge amount of activity) and I'm feeling it now, or the triggering yesterday has had an effect.  I think I just need to try to keep track of when I have these random 'ill' days to see if I can spot a link between physical activity or emotional triggers being the factor that's causing the problem.

[Meh]

Same was a crap week. Tired after stress effect I guess.    Nah no decisions right now

[Twoapenny]

Same was a crap week. Tired after stress effect I guess.    Nah no decisions right now

Another friend of mine has been ill this last week as well, are we all synched in to the moon or something?  Lol, always seems odd to me when people have ill, crappy weeks for no reason and it all comes at the same time.  Sorry no decision yet!  I will catch up on your thread soon to find out what's been happening xx xx

[Twoapenny]

The group situation has improved   I emailed the leader and asked her if she could speak to the guy who is currently in the dark before she goes away, which she has done.  He isn't happy but now that I know he knows and it isn't my bag I don't feel concerned about dealing with anything when she's away next week so I feel better about that.

Lighter's co-dependency thread has made me think a lot about how I validate myself by the actions and reactions of other people, and how much of my life I've spent running round after other people, thinking about other people, doing what they want and so on.  And where is Tupp in all of that?  So I'm going to try really, really hard to focus on my own health and just making myself feel as well and healthy as I possibly can, and to try not to focus on what other people are doing and saying - what do I want to do, what do I think, how do I feel?  I want to try and focus more on that and not what I feel because of things other people say or do (or don't do!).  And as phase one I am still in bed three hours after waking up!  Have been listening to meditation music, eating toast, drinking tea, cuddling the cat and reading (and coming on here). xx

[Hopalong]

I'm going to try really, really hard to focus on my own health and just making myself feel as well and healthy as I possibly can, and to try not to focus on what other people are doing and saying - what do I want to do, what do I think, how do I feel?  I want to try and focus more on that and not what I feel because of things other people say or do (or don't do!).  And as phase one I am still in bed three hours after waking up!  Have been listening to meditation music, eating toast, drinking tea, cuddling the cat and reading (and coming on here).

This is outstanding, Tupp. I think it's a big shift in your compass and will help it move North.

I think something popped up for me....that I'm at my most miserable when I'm grieving (or angry) about yesterday -- OR -- fearing (grief or anticipatory anger) tomorrow.

What you did instead sounded so real, alive, and experienced in the present moment of being in your own existence, nobody else's. I think finding a balance between reacting to past/planning for future (which nobody can avoid entirely) with this exact kind of present self care (not just driven by a "how to do perfect self care" list but honestly by what you said: What do you want to do? How do you feel now? -- is fantastic.

You keep trusting yourself, Tupp -- your compass is a good one.

Hugs
Hops

[Twoapenny]

I'm going to try really, really hard to focus on my own health and just making myself feel as well and healthy as I possibly can, and to try not to focus on what other people are doing and saying - what do I want to do, what do I think, how do I feel?  I want to try and focus more on that and not what I feel because of things other people say or do (or don't do!).  And as phase one I am still in bed three hours after waking up!  Have been listening to meditation music, eating toast, drinking tea, cuddling the cat and reading (and coming on here).

This is outstanding, Tupp. I think it's a big shift in your compass and will help it move North.

I think something popped up for me....that I'm at my most miserable when I'm grieving (or angry) about yesterday -- OR -- fearing (grief or anticipatory anger) tomorrow.

What you did instead sounded so real, alive, and experienced in the present moment of being in your own existence, nobody else's. I think finding a balance between reacting to past/planning for future (which nobody can avoid entirely) with this exact kind of present self care (not just driven by a "how to do perfect self care" list but honestly by what you said: What do you want to do? How do you feel now? -- is fantastic.

You keep trusting yourself, Tupp -- your compass is a good one.

Hugs
Hops

Hops, thank you   It's weird when these big shifts happen.  What you said about being your most miserable when you're reacting to something in the past or something in the future really rang for me.  Yesterday I realised that I've spend all my time since I had son waiting and trying to get back to where I was before I had him.  Pre son Tupp had a good job, a good income, her own flat (apartment, I think you guys would call it!), a decent car, a good social life, lots of friends, work colleagues, family (albeit a messed up one but I was still in a state of ignorance and denial then so it didn't matter) and just lots of hope for the future.  Promotion at work, bigger property, more friends, travel etc.  Then I fell pregnant, wasn't in a relationship with the dad (think two weeks of falling out of pubs barely able to stand and you get the picture with that situation) and it didn't phase me.  I just thought I'd have the baby, go back to work and after a couple of years start teaching abroad.  I pictured having this truly international life, where I could work a year or two at a good International School (which son could attend), and then do voluntary work or just travel with him for a bit, and keep doing that.  I honestly thought that was perfectly possible and attainable, and do you know what, without his disabilities, and/or my mum's constant abuse allegations and general nastiness, it would have been achievable.  And through out everything since then, that's more or less what I've kept trying to get back to, at least in terms of working, earning and getting abroad a bit.

Yesterday I realised that I can't go back.  I can give myself platitudes and encouraging comments but the truth of that matter is that part of my life is well and truly over and I've spent the last eighteen years working towards something I can't have.  I've been rowing in the wrong direction.  So the direction I need to go is forward, but I have no idea how, why or who with.  Which I find terrifying.  So I think that, for the time being, I'm best off focusing on myself and nothing else at all, just to give myself a good point from which to start now and to hopefully be healthy enough to enjoy opportunities as they come along.  I'm trying really hard to focus on how things make me feel, rather than what I think I should be doing.  It's very difficult!

But last night we went ferret racing   It was a charity event in a nearby village; we'd never been before so in the spirit of trying new things we went along.  We parked near the beach and walked into the village, lots of holiday makers about, the pubs were busy, people are chatty and friendly.  And I thought, I do need to try to start getting out, just for the sake of getting out.  Organising care for son is still a problem but if we just go for an hour or so early evening he'll be fine to sit and have a drink somewhere.  So I'm going to try to get out each weekend to just sit, enjoy a drink and just not be sitting at home on my own.  Feels a bit scary!  But it's part of my mission now to improve my health (the loneliness and isolation doesn't help me at all, I find it very hard now).  I will let you all know how it goes! xx xx

[Twoapenny]

Something has just hit me right in the face and now I've seen it it seems so obvious that I don't understand how I haven't seen it before!

All this time alone - the isolation, the endless days sitting indoors, not having a circle of people to talk to (I've got you guys but not similar in real life) - all of which gets me down and makes me feel unwanted, is a result of putting boundaries in place and setting myself some standards that I'm not prepared to back down on (particularly in relation to son being around abusive people and so on).  And I have struggled with that for years, because it feels like I'm being punished for standing up for myself and doing 'the right thing'.

But - what I've just realised this morning is that having all this alone time and not having people around me too much is the perfect opportunity to put in place healthy habits, to build structures and routines that suit myself and son, to do what makes us both happy (instead of running around after other people all the time) and just generally is a good place to start out from.  A clean slate.  Myself and son, with all the knowledge and experience we've accumulated over the last eighteen years, good and bad, a better idea of what works and what doesn't.  Better antennae to avoid getting into bad relationships again, more experience when it comes to work, a better idea of what we need now, and what we don't.  Which all feels quite positive?  I've surprised myself lol xx

[lighter]

Yes yes yes, Tupp.  You're in position to build new habits, and move forward in safety. 

You have room to create, and add worthy relationships.  This is possible bc you've questioned and limited past relationships.
Loneliness is a messenger too.  This part of your life needed attention.

I don't know why growth is painful, but it is, ime

You have good reason to feel optimistic: )
Lighter

I think you see your future with clarity.

Lighter

[Meh]

All this time alone - the isolation, the endless days sitting indoors, not having a circle of people to talk to (I've got you guys but not similar in real life) - all of which gets me down and makes me feel unwanted, is a result of putting boundaries in place and setting myself some standards that I'm not prepared to back down on (particularly in relation to son being around abusive people and so on).  And I have struggled with that for years, because it feels like I'm being punished for standing up for myself and doing 'the right thing'.

Well community is a pretty basic human need, I think most people probably suffer to a degree without it excluding those men who go off to cabins deep in the wilderness and they still receive periodic visits from a supplier of sorts. I think it's hard to have a tribe in the modern world. People with large intact nuclear families maybe have a tribe. Seniors at senior centers have their community there. Maybe Amish people and very active churches like Mormons who give each other house visitations are in the midst of a community. Everything else in my opinion feels like pop-up and transient style community, co-workers, volunteering. All the community I've ever found really does dissipate after a while. Whatever the secret to maintaining meaningful community is I don't know. I guess people who are at the center of it being the facilitator, leader always have people revolving around them, business owners or something.

I guess if your relationship to community is to bend to anybody else's wishes in order to get alone then yah some time away from that would be a chance to see it from a distance and sort it out I guess.

Thinking about it made me want to look up books just now on community. First book I landed on when actually reading ends up being about ON-LINE community and marketing for it. I'm definitely at home sitting on my computer right now, I think some people fall into this trap because it is the easy thing to do in the city. Some places community is just easier to get involved in because it just exists already, part of the vibe of an area. Literally I used to live in a town where they were still having square dances regularly and young people went to them. It's bizarre and unheard of where I'm at now.

Frankly I often feel like I am at the wrong place at the wrong time consistently. Like I am just trying to get by someplace I don't really belong.

[sKePTiKal]

G, I think you'd be a great addition and candidate for small town life! Tupp, is your town a summer tourist mecca? If that's the case, the season is close to hand now, when "local community" revs up a bit because all the tourists are gone. You might find some of those new acquaintances becoming friends soon.

[Meh]

Two I think it's harder when you're single and you're trying to do every single thing by yourself. Maybe because of feminism and a culture of you can do it attitude exist people aren't supposed to admit that it's just difficult to do things alone. I think it when people believe they have help just knowing that gives a person energy because they feel like some burden has been taken off their shoulders that they are part of a team and they're contributing but they're not carrying the whole load of everything. And I think when you've been doing everything yourself for a long time a person can just get used to being tired cuz when it accepts the burden. I'm not saying people shouldn't be single or anything. It's not news. It's just stating the obvious but maybe sometimes we have to be reminded of the obvious. I mean if you're single your time your energy your money is just stretched that much more.

[Twoapenny]

Two I think it's harder when you're single and you're trying to do every single thing by yourself. Maybe because of feminism and a culture of you can do it attitude exist people aren't supposed to admit that it's just difficult to do things alone. I think it when people believe they have help just knowing that gives a person energy because they feel like some burden has been taken off their shoulders that they are part of a team and they're contributing but they're not carrying the whole load of everything. And I think when you've been doing everything yourself for a long time a person can just get used to being tired cuz when it accepts the burden. I'm not saying people shouldn't be single or anything. It's not news. It's just stating the obvious but maybe sometimes we have to be reminded of the obvious. I mean if you're single your time your energy your money is just stretched that much more.

G, all absolutely, true, and I was nodding all the way through your other post as well, about community and how transient it is and how it can be hard to fit in.  And maybe that's why we have transient communities now, because we fit in at a certain time - because we work at a certain place, or we joined an art group, or we're at a parenting group with other people whose kids are the same age - and then when the situation changes the friendships don't survive.  Maybe that's it.  I do feel that a lot of the time connections with other people are about filling a basic need - an unoccupied morning, a bit of solidarity over a shared issue (moaning about the boss, for example), a sense of obligation to say yes to an invitation - and much less about connecting with people on a deeper level and creating something that can withstand distance, changing circumstances, difficult times and so on.  I think I need to continue to focus on people's core qualities, rather than what they do or what they say but also to really focus on my own values now and stay true to them - not to bend to fit in with other people anymore.

And yes, being single.  I enjoy it.  I certainly couldn't put up with a bad relationship now.  But I would really like to meet someone who just ticks my boxes and is just an easy fit, you know?  Like comfy trousers (or pants, as you guys would say ) Lol xx