Reciprocal Relationships with Others and Ourselves

[Twoapenny]

Thank you both.  I've been thinking a lot more about my codependence issues over the weekend and I realised I really do need to make more of an effort to do more for myself and son before I start worrying about other people, for whatever reason.  I really must sort out the rest of this paperwork and get some sort of money spinning activity set up for the two of us.  So I need to be careful to make sure I look after us before I look after anyone else now x

[Hopalong]

Self-care is Job ONE, for sure, Tupp!

Is it possible to "help" folks at these meetings but build in self-care boundaries at the same time? Like -- "I can tell you about this or that, or suggest going in that direction as it's been helpful to me, or whatever .... I won't be able to do X or Y for you, but I can tell you how I made progress on Z....." Does that sound realistic? I hope so but only you can assess it, or try it to find out.

Just don't want you to feel you have to choose between participating in community life or making friends versus living your own responsible life. Just really want you to know you deserve both, and with simple boundaries, getting more comfortable saying simple Yeses and Nos, you can have them.

You're a hero, Tupp. Heroes need both too.

Big hugs
Hops

[Twoapenny]

Self-care is Job ONE, for sure, Tupp!

Is it possible to "help" folks at these meetings but build in self-care boundaries at the same time? Like -- "I can tell you about this or that, or suggest going in that direction as it's been helpful to me, or whatever .... I won't be able to do X or Y for you, but I can tell you how I made progress on Z....." Does that sound realistic? I hope so but only you can assess it, or try it to find out.

Just don't want you to feel you have to choose between participating in community life or making friends versus living your own responsible life. Just really want you to know you deserve both, and with simple boundaries, getting more comfortable saying simple Yeses and Nos, you can have them.

You're a hero, Tupp. Heroes need both too.

Big hugs
Hops

Thanks, Hops   I think I can do both.  I think I need to practise thinking before I act or speak.  I have a tendency to immediately soothe, whether it's myself or someone else, rather than tolerating discomfort for a while so that a longer term response is more appropriate, if that makes sense?  I also don't want to fall into the routine of endlessly comforting people who don't help themselves.  As an example, two people I spoke with last week were in completely different situations.  One is working hard to change things, keep all the balls in the air, try to do her best for her child whilst keeping a bit of a life for herself as well.  Another is in a similarly tough situation and has been for years but has done very little to change the situation, preferring to wait for outside agencies to do everything for them and then being upset with the action the outside agencies have finally taken (which, in my opinion could have been avoided had the parent been more proactive and tried more approaches themself).  I prefer to help the first parent who just needs a bit of a hand with the form filling and knowing the language to use when dealing with the system rather than listening to the second one, who is justifiably upset but still doing very little to change the situations.  So I think I just need to be careful where I put my energy - energy into helping people help themselves (including me), yes, energy into absorbing other people's problems, no.  I find that too tiring and that impacts on what I can do for myself then so I need to find the line and stick to it.  So I think it's doable, I think what I find hard is knowing that saying no or saying what you think does sometimes mean upsetting people and that's the bit I struggle with so I need to find a way to make that less of a problem for myself, and probably to organise my time better so that I can be more efficient with myself and make sure I build in my own time and avoid getting too tired.  And I think I need to crack on with this mountain of paperwork again, I keep putting it off but it needs to be done and got out of the way, finally, so we can get on with other, more enjoyable things that we both want to do.

[lighter]

Hi Tupp:

We're better able to care for, and help others when we're taking care of ourselves. 

We're more resilient when we're rested and have our needs met.

We're more responsive and able to apply creativity to our efforts.

Today I learned a little calming exercise involving the parasympathetic nervous system.  We place our hands over our eyes, and press between our eyes, then press down around our ears, behind our ears, then back into the hollow where our spine meets skull..... massaging a bit.  Then down the neck and shoulders... massaging shoulders one at a time if necessary. Then place our hands over our throats, protectively, very lightly.  Then our hearts.  Then our solar plexus.  Then hands in lap.

We do all this while breathing deeply in through the nose, and out through the mouth. 

It's helps calm us down before making decisions.  We can go through a short version in public before answering more autentically. 

It gives us a chance to center and calm our biology, while allowing our intuition to kick in, and guide us.

I'm all about listening to gut instincts right now. 

BTW, did you know the parasympathetic nervous system (PSNV) runs from our forehead, down our faces, into our heart, lungs, and digestive tracts?  THAT's a huge bundle of nerves!  It's also running along our meridian system, which runs from the top of the head down the front, and around to the lower back, or the root chakra. 

WOmen have 9 times more tolerance for pain than men, and codependents have more than other people.

::nodding::.

Lighter


 

[Hopalong]

I love that calming exercise, Lighter.
Just READING it felt good.

Thanks!

Hugs
Hops

[Twoapenny]

Thank you, Lighter, I will give that a go, it does sound good!

I am trying to observe and change my responses.  Received a text from lady who runs the group - wants to know when I'm home as she needs to have a chat.  I instantly panic - which was interesting, I hadn't really noticed I do it.  But the thoughts jumbled through "I'm tired, I've got loads to do today, I can't cope if it's a drama, have I done something wrong, have I upset someone" - it all flashed through my head in a matter of seconds.  So - I took a deep breath and quieted my mind.  I don't know what she wants to talk about so no point giving it any thought at all.  I texted back and said I'd be home tonight or tomorrow (boundary setting).  Which of course is fine with her because she's not a fruit loop and doesn't expect people to drop everything the moment she wants to talk to them.  So it's all fine, no need for a panic, but it was interesting to me that my brain went straight to disaster scenario.  Not sure if that's because I'm very tired (didn't sleep well) or if that would have happened if I were well rested, will have to keep an eye on it.  But anyway, I feel a little bit of progress made, largely because I replied saying I was busy and suggesting an alternative, rather than ignoring the text and then worrying about ignoring it.  Feels dealt with.

[Twoapenny]

Ooh ladies, I'm on a roll!  Received another text, from a friend, who often texts to moan about her daughter's school.  There are a lot of problems and she's a very dear friend but I find that I give advice, quote sections of Education Law, tell her groups to contact to help her sort problem out - and she never does.  So I started to text back the relevant info after looking it up online for her and then thought, no, she is perfectly capable of doing this herself if she wants to, it took me two minutes to find it online, so I deleted what I had written and just wrote back that I hoped it got sorted soon and to have a lovely day.  We can be friends without me running round pulling up info for her, right?  Had a very bad night's sleep last night so I am back off to bed for a couple of hours before picking son up from college later   night night xx

[Hopalong]

Wow, Tupp, I am IMPRESSED.
REALLY impressed!

You observed the inner over-alarm, engaged the boundary idea,
communicated your needs calmly, and .... voila! I'm awed.

And the friend texting about her daughter's education issues.
I GET THIS! I have a dear friend also who texts me simple questions
that are easily answered on Google, and I tend to instantly look it up.
That happens a lot. I usually think 'well, I google everything anyway'
so don't really mind...but sometimes I think, what is she thinking when
she asks it? Probably: enjoyable dialogue. Or just: connect by asking a
question, as she's too tired for other talk. I think sometimes it's that.

One thing I do sometimes as a compromise is enter a to-me-obvious
search term, see if some decent-looking results pop up, and then forward
her the link to the entire search, just in case she's having difficulty figuring
out how to ask the query. With education law, I don't know if there's a
portal link where she could begin her own search, but it's a possibility....

In my example, she doesn't do it often, so it's not a serious annoyance.
But it's a great example of how to work within oneself to check on the
leap-to-fix impulse, which I know I have in spades. See above. Busted!

Hugs
Hops

[lighter]

Thank you, Lighter, I will give that a go, it does sound good!

I am trying to observe and change my responses.  Received a text from lady who runs the group - wants to know when I'm home as she needs to have a chat.  I instantly panic - which was interesting, I hadn't really noticed I do it.  But the thoughts jumbled through "I'm tired, I've got loads to do today, I can't cope if it's a drama, have I done something wrong, have I upset someone" - it all flashed through my head in a matter of seconds.  So - I took a deep breath and quieted my mind.  I don't know what she wants to talk about so no point giving it any thought at all.  I texted back and said I'd be home tonight or tomorrow (boundary setting).  Which of course is fine with her because she's not a fruit loop and doesn't expect people to drop everything the moment she wants to talk to them.  So it's all fine, no need for a panic, but it was interesting to me that my brain went straight to disaster scenario.  Not sure if that's because I'm very tired (didn't sleep well) or if that would have happened if I were well rested, will have to keep an eye on it.  But anyway, I feel a little bit of progress made, largely because I replied saying I was busy and suggesting an alternative, rather than ignoring the text and then worrying about ignoring it.  Feels dealt with.

Simply making a statement.... I'll be home tonight or tomorrow.... is better than making excuses, avoiding, or feeling guilty over something we haven't done, and aren't responsible for.

I think many of us feel responsible, and guilty all the time.  It's a low thrumming through our lives we've gotten used to, and don't notice,  till we stop, and pay attention, like you did here. 

I sent you a few things in your PM box that seem applicable. 

Honestly, just noticing the feelings are creating chemical dumps.  Becoming aware of them is pretty scary.... sometimes I feel so snowed and mired very deeply, I'm afraid i won't be able to dig myself all the way out,  Now, that's fear based thinking, and I want to quiet that too.

Lordy, I'll get there: )

Lighter

[lighter]

I love that calming exercise, Lighter.
Just READING it felt good.

Thanks!

Hugs
Hops

You're welcome, Hops.  I went through it today.  I want to come up with a quick version I can do in public.  I remember a nice fellow I used to date used to do something like that when he was really under pressure.  It sort of ended in a quick snap of his hand, like he was shaking something off his hand.   It's funny how the body does things to calm itself without understanding why it's doing it.

Lighter

[Twoapenny]

Wow, Tupp, I am IMPRESSED.
REALLY impressed!

You observed the inner over-alarm, engaged the boundary idea,
communicated your needs calmly, and .... voila! I'm awed.

And the friend texting about her daughter's education issues.
I GET THIS! I have a dear friend also who texts me simple questions
that are easily answered on Google, and I tend to instantly look it up.
That happens a lot. I usually think 'well, I google everything anyway'
so don't really mind...but sometimes I think, what is she thinking when
she asks it? Probably: enjoyable dialogue. Or just: connect by asking a
question, as she's too tired for other talk. I think sometimes it's that.

One thing I do sometimes as a compromise is enter a to-me-obvious
search term, see if some decent-looking results pop up, and then forward
her the link to the entire search, just in case she's having difficulty figuring
out how to ask the query. With education law, I don't know if there's a
portal link where she could begin her own search, but it's a possibility....

In my example, she doesn't do it often, so it's not a serious annoyance.
But it's a great example of how to work within oneself to check on the
leap-to-fix impulse, which I know I have in spades. See above. Busted!

Hugs
Hops

Lol, thanks, Hops   Yes, your friend situation is similar and like you, this friend probably isn't actually asking for me to do anything for her, it's just my go to default whenever I hear someone having a problem.  Years ago a T told me that by constantly jumping in to 'do' for others I was denying them the opportunity to learn for themselves and develop their own skills.  Which is absolutely true.  I think, like your friend, this one is just describing what's going on and do you know what, that probably applies to a lot of people I know, they don't want a fix, they just want a moan.  Which sometimes is okay and sometimes isn't, so we can choose whether or not we listen.  Depends on what else we've got to do, I guess?  And what sort of mood we're in?  But same friend has messaged today, situation is ongoing and friend has decided to leave it as she feels it's not worth chasing so I think there is that difference between people asking for help and people just thinking out loud and maybe I need to check more which of the two it is  

[Twoapenny]

Thank you, Lighter, I will give that a go, it does sound good!

I am trying to observe and change my responses.  Received a text from lady who runs the group - wants to know when I'm home as she needs to have a chat.  I instantly panic - which was interesting, I hadn't really noticed I do it.  But the thoughts jumbled through "I'm tired, I've got loads to do today, I can't cope if it's a drama, have I done something wrong, have I upset someone" - it all flashed through my head in a matter of seconds.  So - I took a deep breath and quieted my mind.  I don't know what she wants to talk about so no point giving it any thought at all.  I texted back and said I'd be home tonight or tomorrow (boundary setting).  Which of course is fine with her because she's not a fruit loop and doesn't expect people to drop everything the moment she wants to talk to them.  So it's all fine, no need for a panic, but it was interesting to me that my brain went straight to disaster scenario.  Not sure if that's because I'm very tired (didn't sleep well) or if that would have happened if I were well rested, will have to keep an eye on it.  But anyway, I feel a little bit of progress made, largely because I replied saying I was busy and suggesting an alternative, rather than ignoring the text and then worrying about ignoring it.  Feels dealt with.

Simply making a statement.... I'll be home tonight or tomorrow.... is better than making excuses, avoiding, or feeling guilty over something we haven't done, and aren't responsible for.

I think many of us feel responsible, and guilty all the time.  It's a low thrumming through our lives we've gotten used to, and don't notice,  till we stop, and pay attention, like you did here. 

I sent you a few things in your PM box that seem applicable. 

Honestly, just noticing the feelings are creating chemical dumps.  Becoming aware of them is pretty scary.... sometimes I feel so snowed and mired very deeply, I'm afraid i won't be able to dig myself all the way out,  Now, that's fear based thinking, and I want to quiet that too.

Lordy, I'll get there: )

Lighter

Thanks for that, Lighter, I'll have a look through them all.  And yes, the chemical dumps are hard to cope with.  I've spoken to the group lady now, it was just an admin thing she wanted to check with me and make sure I was happy with it.  I've got to try really hard to just not try to figure out what someone might say before they say it!  I guess I've just been bamboozled so many times now with unexpected responses and suddenly had things like solicitor's letters or child protection reports shoved in to my hand that the fear response just kicks in quicker than anything else.

I'm trying to deal with my paperwork better as well.  I've had two big jobs to sort out that have been bothering me.  One turned out to take only ten minutes and the other turned out to take no time at all because, having read it properly, it doesn't apply to us anyway so I've just binned it.  I think perhaps I need to make more of an effort to read things properly and categorise them instead of assuming that all paperwork is important and/or time consuming.  That bit's been hanging over me all week and it's taken less than twenty minutes to cross both jobs off the list.

In other news, we had a doctor's appointment this morning that made me very anxious - again, it's just an instinctive reaction now, I could feel the panic building in the waiting room.  I did deep breathing but didn't feel less anxious, but as soon as we're in the office and I was explaining the situation the anxiety went away.  It's the unknown, I think.  The doctor was friendly and helpful and has basically said "do what you think is best" (this is in relation to a problem with son's meds) which for me is the best kind of advice so I felt the appointment went well.  I do feel stressed now, I can feel it up in my shoulders, so I'm going to break to do some yoga and try to get back to a sense of calm before collecting son from college.

On another note, I am feeling that there is a big lump of hatred lodged in me somewhere.  I can't quite explain it, but I wake up in the mornings thinking "I hate this life", before I'm even properly awake.  It's like it floods out through the night.  I'm going to have to try to shift that somehow, I don't think it's healthy.

[lighter]

Thank you, Lighter, I will give that a go, it does sound good!

I am trying to observe and change my responses.  Received a text from lady who runs the group - wants to know when I'm home as she needs to have a chat.  I instantly panic - which was interesting, I hadn't really noticed I do it.  But the thoughts jumbled through "I'm tired, I've got loads to do today, I can't cope if it's a drama, have I done something wrong, have I upset someone" - it all flashed through my head in a matter of seconds.  So - I took a deep breath and quieted my mind.  I don't know what she wants to talk about so no point giving it any thought at all.  I texted back and said I'd be home tonight or tomorrow (boundary setting).  Which of course is fine with her because she's not a fruit loop and doesn't expect people to drop everything the moment she wants to talk to them.  So it's all fine, no need for a panic, but it was interesting to me that my brain went straight to disaster scenario.  Not sure if that's because I'm very tired (didn't sleep well) or if that would have happened if I were well rested, will have to keep an eye on it.  But anyway, I feel a little bit of progress made, largely because I replied saying I was busy and suggesting an alternative, rather than ignoring the text and then worrying about ignoring it.  Feels dealt with.

Simply making a statement.... I'll be home tonight or tomorrow.... is better than making excuses, avoiding, or feeling guilty over something we haven't done, and aren't responsible for.

I think many of us feel responsible, and guilty all the time.  It's a low thrumming through our lives we've gotten used to, and don't notice,  till we stop, and pay attention, like you did here. 

I sent you a few things in your PM box that seem applicable. 

Honestly, just noticing the feelings are creating chemical dumps.  Becoming aware of them is pretty scary.... sometimes I feel so snowed and mired very deeply, I'm afraid i won't be able to dig myself all the way out,  Now, that's fear based thinking, and I want to quiet that too.

Lordy, I'll get there: )

Lighter

Thanks for that, Lighter, I'll have a look through them all.  And yes, the chemical dumps are hard to cope with.  I've spoken to the group lady now, it was just an admin thing she wanted to check with me and make sure I was happy with it.  I've got to try really hard to just not try to figure out what someone might say before they say it!  I guess I've just been bamboozled so many times now with unexpected responses and suddenly had things like solicitor's letters or child protection reports shoved in to my hand that the fear response just kicks in quicker than anything else.

I'm trying to deal with my paperwork better as well.  I've had two big jobs to sort out that have been bothering me.  One turned out to take only ten minutes and the other turned out to take no time at all because, having read it properly, it doesn't apply to us anyway so I've just binned it.  I think perhaps I need to make more of an effort to read things properly and categorise them instead of assuming that all paperwork is important and/or time consuming.  That bit's been hanging over me all week and it's taken less than twenty minutes to cross both jobs off the list.

In other news, we had a doctor's appointment this morning that made me very anxious - again, it's just an instinctive reaction now, I could feel the panic building in the waiting room.  I did deep breathing but didn't feel less anxious, but as soon as we're in the office and I was explaining the situation the anxiety went away.  It's the unknown, I think. I think it IS the unknown, but also that's one of those times, maybe, where pushing on a wall, gargling BIG, or walking backwards while breathing, would be helpful.  Sometimes DOING is necessary, and I forget that.  I hope you try one of those,  and report back.  The doctor was friendly and helpful and has basically said "do what you think is best" (this is in relation to a problem with son's meds) which for me is the best kind of advice so I felt the appointment went well.  YAY! I do feel stressed now, I can feel it up in my shoulders, so I'm going to break to do some yoga and try to get back to a sense of calm before collecting son from college. 

On another note, I am feeling that there is a big lump of hatred lodged in me somewhere. I'd imagine there are several hate filled bubbles, my dear.  I can't quite explain it, but I wake up in the mornings thinking "I hate this life", before I'm even properly awake.  I don't know how you wouldn't have that thrumming through your brain pan, considering the last 15 years, Tupp.   It's natural, and I so want you to feel better too. THe past is a big heavy wet sucking thing, and it takes mindful action to look at it, deal with it, make friends with it then set it aside in peace, IME    It's like it floods out through the night.  I'm going to have to try to shift that somehow, I don't think it's healthy.  I think you've been learning HOW to shift it.   Now you're identifying it, and preparing to deal with it. 

That's how you transition into feeling better, IME.  One layer at a time, and there are many layers.  We do well not to judge, but just keep looking toward the next thing that comes up... when they show up, they're asking for attention, IME.  They aren't trying to overwhelm us, or drown us... it's how they present, and let us know it's time to do that work, IME. 

Sometimes it can seem scary, and humans try to avoid pain at all costs,  but I think it can be exciting too, bc we also understand spending time looking at the painful stuff is how we get past it.
 I think you've come so far, I just want to make sure you take time, pat yourself on the back, and recognize how amazing you are.  Now that you're practicing yoga, working on mindfulness, and new coping strategies.... you'll keep snowballing into feeling better, and better as you work through the layers.  The more you practice, the easier it gets.  The more familier, the more often you default in favor of positive choices, kwim?

I see it so clearly for you, and that helps me see it for me too (((Tupp.))) 

[Twoapenny]

Thanks, Lighter   I think it is a constant process of evolution or stripping off the layers, isn't it?  Different things to try and practise, repeat, new habits to form and so on.

I do feel exhausted today.  Chemical dump, I think, as you mention in one of the threads.  Stress from seeing doctor, stress of dropping son off at college and picking him up again - I feel like I leave him at the door, rush around for a few hours and then collect him again.  It doesn't feel good to me.  We went out last night, to watch an opera at the cinema and it was amazing.  I felt like a human for a couple of hours, completely engaged in the set design and the incredible talent in the singing, whilst not understanding a word (they have subtitles but it kind of spoils it, I don't think it translates well from the Italian!  The singing sounds beautiful and the translation is kind of clunky and doesn't roll in the same way.  So not understanding it and just listening suits me ).

Trying to drink more water.  Group today - not sure how to proceed or what to do.  We had a training session booked, which I've been booked onto for months, but had so much else to do today, felt so tired and son is starting to flag that I cancelled the place I'd booked (just for myself, everyone else still went).  The admin task that the earlier calls and emails were about still needed to be done (I just had to sign something) so I went in just for an hour this afternoon to do that and say hi.

Lady had changed her mind about doing the forms today so hadn't brought them in.  Not the end of the world, but I only went in to sign them (as per our previous conversations) so if I'd known we weren't doing it I wouldn't have gone in at all (and could have taken a nap before picking son up which may have helped).  Stayed for a coffee but even with only about eight people there the noise level is just too much for me.  Everyone's sitting in a group talking at once and so the noise level just goes up and up.  It's informal so people just sit where they want.  The people either side of me were telling me all about their health problems, in tandem.  I was only in there about half an hour in the end but felt so overwhelmed that I've come out with a headache brewing, stiff shoulders and a general feeling of exhaustion.  So I'm really not sure how to play this and how best to move forward.  I'm not in next week anyway so it gives me a bit of time to think.

[lighter]

However in the world will be figure out boundaries, put them in place, and somehow find comfort behind them,  Tupp?

I reallhy want you to creatively solve your privacy problem in the group, and keep the positives you've found there.  Can you borrow an office, or even a hallway for your one on one meetings?  Maybe even put up one of those tri fold cardboard things kids use for projects at school... sitting on the table between you and the rest of the group.  Yu could put a sign on it with instructions....
PUT YOUR NAME ON THE LIST BELOW THEN WAIT TILL YOUR NAME IS CALLED.... something.

I'm noticing how my energy invites people to talk AT me,  and overshare, and that really robs the joy out of things that should bring joy... like dropping off a basket of food to post op neighbors.

 I just can't solve their problems with meds that aren't doing the trick with pain, and if they won't consider doing something, like askig the doc for a med that actually works, then I need to go on my way.  Does talking about it help?  I'm sure it does,  but it's too draining to get trapped for too long, and not know how to end it without feeling bad.  It's a double whammy bc I get drained the beat myself up for not having better boundaries, then have a harder time problem solving from that negative head space.

I should think up better boundaries, and have them ready to deploy proactively.... so I don't have to think when I'm in the thick of being talked at  or trapped.  I can just DO that thing I thought of ahead, and know it's better for everyone all the way around. 

Yup yup yup.

Good luck figuring out how to handle the group, Tupp.

Lighter