Mindfulness and codependence thread

[lighter]

My tooth feels about normal.  No pain for 3 days.  What an odd experience.   One second you're sure you snapped a tooth off at the root, and the next you're googling tooth pain and reading about teeth having ligaments that get sprained and bruised... just very odd.

And painful.

And my lower molar, on the opposite side from the sprain, is a little sore now from chewing in a compromised position..... I automatically chew oddly, and compensate to keep sprained tooth from clacking the tooth below.  That never goes well, IME. Something's always thrown out of whack when compensation happens.

I'm ready to start chewing normally. 

Baby girl pug is limping intermittently... her right front paw/leg.... something was bugging her, then not, then bugging her, then not.  I suspect it COULD be her training us to give her almond butter on demand.   I can't be sure.  We drop her at the Vet in the morning, and hope she shows them what we're talking about, bc she wasn't limping when she went to bed and I didn't get any video, though I tried. I'm focused on giving oldest dd space to be the pug parent.  Not me.  I'm... just the Grandma.  Who made the vet appointment for the morning.  After threatening to "take my Karen business elsewhere" when the appointment maker said it would be days before they could see the pug, and I had a bit of a meltdown..... not HUGE, but manic and I justified it, in my mind, bc my first job was making appointments in a doctors office... for people.   We left problem visit appointments open daily for regular patients.  There should be time left in their schedule for problems like this, and I'm noticing I'm not upset..... I burned it all off earlier in the day.  And got my way.  There's only slight shame there.  The pug was limping badly when I made that call, btw.  She makes little kitten noises when she's in pain. You'd have made the call too... I think.  Just pitiful.  She's not limping now.  Maybe she'll be limping in the morning, but I HAVE to turn over the pug's care to dd.  It's an imperative.  Good for us both, and the Pug will get through it.

The first real rental of the Cottage happens on the 3rd.  I'm refusing to what if myself into anxiety over the things I can't control, but can see being a problem.  This couple is young and fit... like bull.   

I'm going to hope things go well, and KNOW the beach looks great... I hear the sand is back.  They can swim, so less chance of drowning if the turn the kayaks over.... I didn't get a chance to bring flotation devices.  They'll likely blow fuses in the kitchen, but they can figure that out..... if I can, they can.  At least I didn't lock the box in the basement where they can't reach it, which is what the last airbnb did to me, out of the country.   The second electric panel is outside, up high, where they'll need a ladder to reach it.  What could go wrong?  He owns his own car repair business.  He'll drag a chair out and overcome. 

What else?  Oh. We have travel coming up, a birthday for one of my daughters, I see a fancy tea party coming up, and the stone for my father's grave.... errrrr.... general area of his ashes.... arrived.  It looks good.  I had this irrational fear it would show up with misspelled words and the wrong dates.  It's fine. 

The cemetery people don't work past 3pm, but we can show up and request they deal with it... they need about a day in advance notice.  They also need 120.00 to place it, I assume there's cement involved so it doesn't sink into the earth or catch the mower blade.  I'll admit it here, bc I was worrying about it for a while, while my sibs AREN'T worrying.....
we buried Dad's ashes with my Grandparents.  Did I tell you guys that?  And we did it without asking the cemetery folks for permission.... and we chose the head of the grave, not the foot of the grave, which I don't understand.  The cemetery buries ashes as the foot of the grave, not sure why, bc it's counterintuitive TO ME.  Not right.  Honoring Dad's wishes seemed important at the time. 

So, I have choices. I can tell the cemetery on US, dig up the urn, and have them bury him proper, at the foot of the grave, for another 120.00.  I don't care about the money, it's more the telling on ourselves.... the sneaking was somewhat cathartic for about half the group.  One of my cousins brought a Hosta... I'm sure I told you guys. 

We could leave Dad where he is, hand the cemetery a box with some dirt and treasure map to the real urn and have the box buried instead of the ashes.  Com pli cated. 

  Hmmm.... maybe they'll plant the stone, even if they don't have ashes to bury?  I'll see.  It's odd to speak to people who sound like your long lost Grandparents, IME.  Like falling into a dream... feeling drowsy...  anything can happen.  Maybe the Grandparents will show up, and we'll have a picnic on the farm, under the big oak trees that let me know we arrived when i was a child. 

I look forward to being in that cemetery.  It's comforting.  My Grandparents lived in a little white house just at the edge of it, for years.  I enjoyed spending time with my Grandmother there... and my sister and cousins remember it fondly too. 

Again, I'm bringing Dad's little cowboy boots and fancy Western gun holster for a little graveside ceremony and lunch.  Think green and red and ivory and big flashy sparkly stones.  Very fancy. I plan to put vases of flowers in his boots.... white flowers, and something fitting into the holsters.  Not sure what yet. Maybe flatware in napkins.  My Grandpa was sort of a cowboy.... had quarter horses, and rode them in parades... Dad rode... had cowboy hats and cowboy clothes, as did the grandkids, us.  Little black and white cow spotted chaps, and matching hats... very cute.  Time on their farm was amazing for us. 

I was shocked when Dad said he wanted to be buried with his parents, particularly bc there wasn;t any room for him there. 

I want to honor the farm, and my Dad and Grandparents.   The horses.  The cows maybe.  The 50's era, Roy Rogers time it was.  The Grandparents were square dancers.  Yup yup yup.  I ended up putting a Roy Rogers quote on Dad's stone, btw.  It didn't seem right not to.  I would have quoted Audie Murphie, but all his quotes were too long. 

I must sleep now.

:: shutting computer with all it's decorating ideas for horseshoe cupcakes and cowboy boot flower vases:: 


There's a lot.

If we don't all end up in photos wearing cheap little cowboy hats, kerchiefs and creatively placed cowboy mustaches.... I'll be surprised.  Our very best family reunion was a pirate party.  Mustaches are amazingly fun props.  I highly recommend.  They make great goatees and eyebrows too.   

Did I mention we aren't traditional about funerals and memorial services?  Turns out... we aren't. At least my sister and I aren't.  I think my brother might have been.... maybe?  Not sure.  Going to sleep now.  Again.

Lighter

[Twoapenny]

Aw, Lighter, I love the sound of a cowboy themed picnic with all the family there, past and present!  I think celebrations of life are so lovely.  I hate funerals, absolutely hate them, but I love wakes.  At the funeral you can only focus on what you lost.  It's around you, everywhere you look, every breath you take in.  But wakes - do you call them wakes there?  When you all get together after the service?  That's when everyone tells the funny stories and the 'do you remember' and all those old tales, often embellished and with any unpleasantness ironed out, but that's alright on the day.  I think it sounds lovely to be together at their grave side like that.

I've no advice about the ashes - personal to you, I think.  Here they will lay a stone without burying anything so maybe you don't need to do anything anyway.  But you will all figure it out between you.

Poor pug!  Intermittent problems are hard, they never seem to show what the problem is at the vet but hopefully the vet will be able to feel or see what's wrong even if it seems fine at the time.  Sometimes you do need to be assertive.  We always have emergency appointments put by here - everywhere does, as far as I know.  Maybe they were just having a bit of a bad day or had some bigger appointments scheduled in for more complex things.  But you've got in, that's that main thing, so hopefully they can help.

And your poor tooth!  Any idea how it got sprained?  I'd never heard of that either.  But glad it's getting better now.

And then going back to the post before that one   I think the shame needs to go, Lighter, and leave you quiet.  I remember reading about abuse and shame, something about how often we trivialise our own experiences - so and so had it worse, at least I had x, I didn't end up in hospital, etc, etc.  It's all trauma and we all have it.  No-one's is less or more, we each have our own experience to deal with.  I had my dad, albeit for a short time.  I got my freedom early on by leaving home at a relatively young age and I went to University and my goodness, what a ride that was.  There was lots of good stuff.  So yep, bye bye shame!  Lighter doesn't need you around

I think you're right about making peace with it.  My mum did what she could, and in some ways she was great - meals on the table, house was clean, we had clothes, we got presents on birthday and Christmas.  I knew kids that didn't get those things.  I think, essentially, she's controlled by an abusive man and she manages how that feels by (trying to) control her kids and the way people see her.  She relinquished control of her own life so she compensates by trying to micromanage other people's.  That's how I see it anyway.  She still causes my sister a lot of problems but my sister doesn't have to keep in contact with her, she can cut off like I did.  So I don't let my head go there about that situation.  It just makes me relieved I got out when I did.

And yes, firm assertion.  I think it's part of my anti-man head I've got on at the moment.  I've struggled to look back and think of a bloke who has done anything other than exactly what he likes.  I've got one or two examples in my mind but that's about all.  That's troubling me a lot and I don't know why.  But we're not going out anyway so I won't have to deal with it for a good long while.  Lol.

Thanks, Lighter.  I'm glad you've got the picnic organised and are able to let go of what happens at the beach house now. xx

[lighter]

Lots of processing today with T.

We worked on, guess what?

The brain surgery situation, and that lead to all the stuff underneath it and on top of it and it's a whole big deal we've scheduled to work on next we meet.

There was some EMDR.... which was really hard on my little phone, and this time she had be breath into every cell in my body.... with light.  More space than matter in our cells..... the lights getting brighter with each finger wave..... and that happened twice.  The pain, around my heart, went from 7 down to 3 down to zero, and we have a large session around it coming up soon. 

I like taking notes right after, so that's one good thing about meeting over the internet.  I had hoped we could meet in her garden,  or garden, but face to face.

Tupp... thanks for the info about planting a stone with nothing underneath.  I'm going with that as PLAN A.  Don't ask, don't gets, so I'll ask.  Seems simple now. 

Pug might have a neck problem, which can show up as problems with mobility in the front legs.  Pug had no symptoms AND her neck has so much chub on it,  Vet couldn't tell.  She, the Vet, said to go in when symptoms appeared again, so that was just before T session, but went anyway.  And.... no symptoms when we GOT OUT of the car, so, raced to make appt and will try again.

MAYBE the Pug was looking almond butter and got a car ride instead?  If so, the car ride, which she hates, should train her OUT of that behavior, IMO.  Hopefully.
'
About the tooth ligament... it's easy to google.  Look it up.  It'll be there, alright. I cut the rind off my ham now.  That's what I bit down on that torqued the tooth..... it wasn't good. 

Neighbor is coming by to show me chiropractic moves for Pug's neck, in case it's the neck.  His dog suffered with problems for years, so he told me what to buy to support joints and cartldg, etc.

 ::sigh::.

Very tired now.  This Pug pain has created some faintness and feelings of being unwell.  If she started screaming I'd have to put my head between my knees to keep going,  but I'd keep going. 

Lighter

[Hopalong]

Lighter,
I really sympathize with your struggle over the right answer to burial options. I hope you happen onto something that feels right and sufficient to you.

I am not much help because I'm completely unhooked from ritual, symbolic or sentimental things about families. Makes sense, since I have none. But I think a long time ago I began to see biology as accidental, and endless involuntary biofamily obligation (under pressure to make it LOOK "right" or "good") as poison.

I know all that came from 10 years serving Nmom, and ruthless attack by SocioNbro, and current state (likely permanent) of estrangement with D.

Biofamily illusions and symbolism just blew up into a million tiny particles that I let go into the universe. It can handle them in case it matters; I have let them go. It healed something.

BUT. My Dad's the exception. His grave (mausoleum ashes spot) is 10 minutes away and I never, ever visit it (nor feel guilty about that). Nor Nmom's with him. Why? He's still here--in his old shirt I sometimes wear, in my prayer-chats with him now and then. My memory of his gentle soul. Those are all very present and to be honest, I just don't care what the future thinks of me and my duty. I haven't lost him. Even enjoy a few positive moments with Nmom in my head now and then...her librarian side, some early stuff.

When I'm gone, I'm gone. And I don't want anyone, ever, to feel they need to haul their aging or busy bones somewhere to "prove" (to whom? I'm FIIIIINE) that they loved me. If they did, they did. I'm confident I'll be remembered for a while by enough folks. Even if I weren't, my life had meaning anyway. I don't need anything public or permanent.

I did buy three spaces (plaques on a pretty brick wall, and the option to have ashes interred or sprinkled in the grassy center) at the church Memorial Garden. One was for my first hub, D's father (not his ashes, but the memorial plaque) -- we'd had a small memorial service there -- just D, me, her stepMom, and the minister. Another is for me. The third is for D should she ever wish to be there with both parents. (She probably won't but I wanted to leave that option for her.)

Actually took M by there the other day, he was curious. Showed him the names of old friends, plus first hub. He liked it. It's very simple but peaceful. Nice place to sit and think. He seemed attracted to the place. We couldn't get in to show him the sanctuary (shut for covid) but he enjoyed the visit.

Anyway, I am sad to think of how much anguish all that decision-making has cost you.

You don't deserve it. He is fine. You owe nobody anything about your grief. It belongs to you.

love
Hops

[lighter]

I have some closure on the burial/grave marker questions and final choices.

I'm struggling over the other stuff... my father's caretaker.... Dad's choices....  her choices.... my choices, and who was responsible for what.   

Caretaker returning from out of the Country today, so working with my T is truly timely.  I wish I'd done it sooner, but alas, this is how it was supposed to be. 

I've worked through an aspect of the puzzle regarding more modern, satellite issues...  but not the 20 year old stuff.

I don't know how to determine ownership of self-care and caring for others....
when it's overstepping, to do so.  And that's the thing.... NEEEDING someone else to be OK, to feel OK myself, is codependence.  But where it ties into my life, my hours, my relationships.....trying to save someone else can be tied into saving myself too,  IME.  In my opinion. 

I'm discerning the edges of that puzzle.   Maybe it will just process, and get filed where I don't need to access and figure it out. 

I'm curious how it resolves.  I'm sure it will be resolved.   

In the meantime, my Cousin's HS aged dd is seeking to extend a TRO against an ex bf who's been stalking her, assaulting her, threatening her.   DD is on the spectrum and can't discern the difference between an empty or deadly threat... shooting her in the head when he has access to many guns and ability to use them. 

I was reminded... no one can, honestly, tell the difference. There are indicators, but... we're pretty much on our own.  You don't know till something happens or doesn't happen, and the police are quick with the yellow tape, but profoundly helpless when it comes to being proactive in these matters, IME.  Being proactive, and pristine in reporting every failure to comply with Orders is mandatory, IME. 

This...
Wait till you're dead, then call us... pattern of dealing with threats.....
that's pretty much been my experience.  Not a good strategy, and it makes life really painful.  I can't imagine what my Cousin's dd is going through, but it looks and acts like PTSD, IME.

I read through her paperwork and saw the same mistakes I made, and all the things people DO when they're speaking from the limbic system.  It was interesting to SEE it with distance... nose off all my pebbles, and pull it apart, then put it back together in a coherent manner that "squares up" for the Court officers, who don't often read more than a couple sentences into any paragraph.  You have to talk about the big things, and bounce on, without getting sidetracked down rabbit holes that drag you IN.... so powerfully, IME.

Tailor the information according to your evidence, and your specific Judge's world view.  Have everything handy, even if you don';t think you'll need it in court, just in case the Judge turns out to care about that, and not what you thought he would. 

Just in case the opposing party says and does chaotic confusing things requiring your quick response, and having your hands on EVERYTHING, easily produced in a moment's time, is important.   When do PD people NOT say and do confusing things?  They always do, IME.

Not getting defensive is important. 

Not getting baited into reacting.... which is so so hard, IME..... and always always speaking about the abuser with compassion... compassion they lack for those they're harming.   Victims must cultivate compassion for their abusers, while the abusers dive happily into chaos manufacture, which creates confusion, which drags these things out.  That's the way it goes. 

As a mother, there's protective anger, and that has to be reeled in. 

There has to be a plan A,  B and C.  Rock solid understanding of what men punish women in the courtroom for... snarkiness = bitchiness.... and that doesn't often go unpunished, IME. 

One grooms themself to anticipate the usual courtroom crazy and counter it with compassion, and the understanding stupid people need to be educated in a courtroom...and it's the job of the victims to do that, without using ANY medical jargon, just the facts.  Zero expectation.  It's not something we're taught, in life, until we're learning under fire. 

Such a shame there's not more education around the justice system, and mental health in our schools.  Innocent until proven guilty isn't how things work.  They should explain that, and stop saying it.  The same with "In the best interest of the children."  The court doesn't really care, and I doin't think it has the ability to. They should just stop blathering on about it, stating it, up front, like it means anything.  It's a slap in the face, more than an aspiration, IME.

Lighter

[Hopalong]

BRAVO, Lighter, for these:

1)

trying to save someone else can be tied into saving myself too

2) I can imagine how triggering it is to know someone close, who's under threat. From male aggression/violence, or from the court system.

It saddens me, that you reverberate to that so powerfully. How could you not? But how many endless, varied, multi-layered triggers for this are possible in this world?

You deserve to find your way THROUGH (not past) #1. And then to discover inner peace or (or realistically, to just feel a lot less personally reactive and responsible for fixing) situations like #2 forever.

Peace, love, moss, friendship. THESE are what you deserve.

Your precious life energy. Your mind.

I hope and "hold aloft" that you will find the balance, experience your own energy as whole and simple. Clear.

I really believe that is exactly what you're on track to doing.

Kudos, you.

Hugs
Hops

[lighter]

Hops:

Thanks for that input AND I have a mind to finish processing some of this on Monday.... a very clear vision and plan.  I feel good about it.   

There as to be balance.   Yes.

Today I felt very whole and entitled to my voice, no faffing about,  or feeling I must hold back.  Instead speaking up, speaking truth while remaining very curious about the listener's response, which I immediately called them on, without judgment.  Just stating how it affected me, and I count too.... bc I'm talking about it and holding accountable the person I'm speaking to.

And it flooooowwwwed, Hops.  Just felt so right.  So different than I'd normally approach it... with dread of conflict, but when it happened,I didn't fold.  I pointed out the judgment and criticism, I felt were unwarranted, and explained WHY my priorities were what they were and excused him to have his.  It's all good, and we agreed we were done with that discussion, and moved on, with me holding my ground the entire way. 

It felt like we broke above some cloud cover, as two grown adults speaking to each other, instead of him, adult, to me... child. 

I felt heard, and if I wasn't...
pffft. It's OK.  I'm OK with simply speaking and not being hushed or cowed into silence.  That's so simple, and was so difficult to discern for so very long. 

What an amazing feeling!  I noticed it's presence earlier..... and the conversation cemented.  The more I do it, the more cement is poured: )
Lighter

[Hopalong]

It felt like we broke above some cloud cover, as two grown adults speaking to each other, instead of him, adult, to me... child.

Fantastic. Frame-worthy. Cushion-embroidery.

Wonderful!

Hops

[sKePTiKal]

I don't know how to determine ownership of self-care and caring for others....
when it's overstepping, to do so.  And that's the thing.... NEEEDING someone else to be OK, to feel OK myself, is codependence. 

I've got a new practice; still a work in progress. I'll just ask if there's anything I might can do for someone. Within my ability, kind of thing. I will press a little, if I'm reading someone thinking they're not worthy of being cared for or too proud to accept help. Not a LOT, just to be sure.

Where I draw THAT line is the difference between caring for others and self-care. And that's always the point in the process I keep learning about.

[lighter]

:: Pug head tilt::

I'm not sure I understood what you're saying as far as the framework I'm working within.  Particularly regarding FOO members' choices affecting my quality of life in profound ways I cannot escape, once that pooch is screwed.

I can easily say.... for example, Hops has asked for opinions, and mine has run it's course.  I will withdraw further opinions until I feel she's asking, and let it go at that.  No harm.  No foul.

 But when my father insists he pay a surgon to paralyze him, in a day, when he can go slowly down that lane or have surgery when it's lazer or nanobot surgery with out risk....
when Dad's unwilling to perform ANY PT, necessary with a human surgeon.... 
is that self care or..... codependence........ or..... both to do what I can to INFORM him of the truth he's so stubbornly hanging on to, like a little child?
Neither?  Something else? 

It FELT like I was the only adult in the room, and there was a bully fending me off my Father, who I really wanted to talk to.  More.  About the facts.

 It would have felt like leaving my infant father in the middle of the road, defenseless and certain to be flattened by a car if I did nothing. I felt the same exact thing when my dear B was struggling with a cancer dx, and a friend told me to run away.   Quick! GO NOW!  She knew the kind of fuck fuck it would turn into, considering his ex wife and nutsy dd.  Would I have done it differently?  Yup. Would I have left him in the middle of the road, alone?  Likely, not. 

That might be a sickness, on my part.  I'm willing to consider that... or a general weakness.... flaw... whatever THAT was.... I'll cop to it if necessary.  My youngest thinks I think too much.  Take too much responsibility for feeling responsible.  I should just chill, and know I'm making good choices.   Apparently she won't leave me in the middle of the road if I'm every struggling with childlike denial and magical thinking around huge medical decisions she can clearly SEE me floundering drunkenly with in the wrong direction towards traffic. 

And so, until Monday, caretaker sycophant just returned from out of the Country..... 
::sing song voice::

And I'm, all the sudden, no longer an adult in the room.
I am decidedly a child, reacting to SOMETHING else, much older, and I'm aware of it.  Will update once that's figured out. 

And remain curious until I have.

Lighter

[Hopalong]

Yes...I really do understand this intense desire to save people, especially those you love, Lighter. Cousins, neighbors, local businesses, contractors...anybody.

It reminds me of how I felt when Gennulman had yellow-tinged eyes and was clearly beginning to die, and his sister was convinced a few sessions with an "aura therapist" would turn the tide, and the congregation was confident their kind handyman with "a little problem" would soon right himself. I knew better, having watched Hub#1 die of liver failure, same disease. He was 6' 4" and a deadlifter and strong as an ox on the outside. Anyway, about Gennulman I was panicked and went on a tear to get them to wake up and LISTEN to me and HELP him with evidence-based treatment, mainly because I had a health background and my first hub was alcoholic, and I knew underneath G's rangy muscly strength was the start of serious organ damage, starting with his liver. I couldn't stand ... standing by.

Ultimately, by the time G's later rounds with his disease were ready to take him out, I was no longer fighting anything but my own refusal to accept that we each have our time, and that no matter how much someone loves us, we still have those core decisions to make about self-love. Or to not make.

It was poisoning and slowly drowning me to try to fix other people. Biofam or friend or lover or child.

Once I accepted that, and made peace with not being in charge of saving others from what might be coming...this pattern harmed me a lot less often. It's human to love and to fight for others. And sometimes (to me anyway, might not be the same for you), it's a suicide mission.

You are a mighty game fish, and to take the bait of every rescue scenario, to your own cost in deep agitation and worry....is not the long game. Survival isn't necessarily a cold or selfish choice. It can be tender and gentle, even while poor and sad may choices reign around you. It's something you can model as well as benefit from, when being a model is a source of strength.

I think you deserve a peaceful life. You deserve serenity.

Even rescue, its adrenalin, can become an almost-like-addiction thing. That's what my own experience taught me, anyway. Doesn't mean this is insightful for you, as you're your own unique warrior self, planted on two balanced feet.

hugs
Hops

And what you said about self care. My T and I worked on a simple assertion (old school!) for me: I am worthy of self-love. (Self-love was my substitute for self-care, which for no reason as all distracts me as a noun. Same diff, though.)

[Twoapenny]

((((((((((((Lighter))))))))))))

For what it's worth (re codependence versus helping etc) - I had a very good therapist years ago who helped me with my codependence stuff.  She asked me in each situation to look at whether the person(s) could help themselves or if they were genuinely incapable and then to work through the process from there.  So as an example - a friend of mine at the time - who I can now see I was in a very toxic friendship with - was taking a lot of drugs, always dated men that beat her up and had just lost her second child (as in, they went to live elsewhere because she couldn't take care of them).  I had picked up the pieces over and over again, rushed to her house at 3 in the morning to rescue her, taken her and her kids in, taken the kids on days out, got her endless amounts of information about refugees and drug rehab and counseling for her and art therapy for the kids, spent hours on the phone trying to find people to help her and so on and so on.  My latest plan was to take out a loan to pay for her drug rehab while I looked after the children.  Just reading that back now I feel like I can't believe I was so engrossed in other people, but it was a habit set in childhood (take care of mum, look after mum, make sure she's happy, then you're a good girl, then you feel worthy) and I replicated it again and again.

I was explaining my latest plan to the therapist and that was when the word 'codependence' was mentioned.  And then she talked me through all the things I'd done for my friend and we went through whether she was capable of doing things for herself - could she go to a therapist, could she organise drug rehab, could she stop dating men that beat her up (or altogether, for that matter) and so on.  And the answer was yes, she could.  There might be psychological reasons that she doesn't but they won't go away by me doing it for her - they're the things a person has to tackle themselves in order to make the other stuff possible.  That's the bit someone else can't do for you.

It's probably not the best example but it's the one I always think back to because it was the first one I worked through with someone.  To this day, I still feel guilty about not rescuing her.  I still worry about what will happen to my mum when/if she's alone, infirm etc.  I've had to strongly resist the urge to rescue my sister if she does have cancer (my brain was going to her kids coming to live with me and all sorts).  I don't feel good when I resist my codependency - it still makes me feel uncomfortable and often feels wrong - but then I think it's like any other addiction.  You don't feel good when until you take or do the thing you're addicted to.  It has got easier and more immediate with me over the years - I don't automatically leap to help people now - but it's still something I have to work on.  And it doesn't feel great a lot of the time.  I guess I've just learnt to put up with it because I know it's better for me not to do it.

I don't know if that's helpful to you.  These days I tend to take a bit of time to think.  I can say, "Is there anything I can do to help?".  And if someone said, can you walk my dog, could you mop my floor, will you have the kids for the weekend, yep, I'll do that.  I offered to get some information together about complementary therapies for cancer patients when my friend was diagnosed a while ago and she said yes so I did that.  She's not done any of it, as far as I know, but I feel like I can leave that to her.  It's not my place to decide what she should or shouldn't do.  I offered to lend my sister the money for a private MRI so she can get it done quicker - I've got the money and if I didn't get it back it wouldn't be the end of the world so I was able to do that for her, although she said no to the offer anyway.  I think with adults, if you offer them some help or support - "would you like me to find out about that for you, would you like some more information on x, y and z, would you like me to organise a second opinion?" - that sort of thing, and they say no - then I think you have to respect that, however much you might not agree with their decision, however strongly you can see a better or an easier path.  You can let someone know you're still happy to do x, y or z if they change their mind.

I have had to distance myself from people who keep repeating or complaining about their experiences but won't do anything for themselves to change things - friends who endlessly complain about partners, people who talk about their negative experiences with the system but won't challenge it or do their own thing, people who complain about their health problems but won't take any action to try to improve their health (just through the obvious ways - losing weight, stopping smoking, that sort of thing).  I'm a doer - you're the same.  I think everyone on this forum is.  If we're not happy or life isn't good, we look at how to make it better.  But some people don't.  Some people are stayers - they sit with their misfortune or problem and it becomes their thing, you know?  They don't necessarily want to get rid of it, I think it becomes like a security blanket?  Safer to stick with that problem than work on it and open up a whole load of new ones.  And it seems crazy if you're a doer - why would you stay in a situation if there's a way to change it.  But we're all different.  It's taken me a lot of years to get my head around.

I don't know if all of that makes sense, or even if it's relevant.  My head is a bit foggy this morning, I might have got hold of the wrong end of all the sticks.  But you know that if you get to the end of that and you're thinking, "shush, Tupp" that I won't mind

I do agree with Hops that you deserve peace, serenity, calm, happiness.  Moss and hostas and nice meals with the girls.  Headspace to dump/burn/organise that paperwork.  Holidays to the beach house, so that you can enjoy all that hard work you've put in.  Barbeques and outdoor showers and dancing.  Everyone else has got their own life to live.

Do you know, I just remember as well, there was something that T said to me and I was trying to remember what it was and I couldn't the whole time I was typing and it just came to me now   She said that, every time I jumped in to fix someone else's problem, I was denying them the chance TO LEARN HOW TO FIX IT FOR THEMSELVES   I just put it in caps so I don't forget it again   Lol, but that was the thing, that was what helped me learn to step back and allow other people to learn how to do things themselves.  Doesn't mean you can't offer to help, or just email someone an article that might be useful or phone to check how they're doing.  But if they have the capacity to learn, then other people doing it for them stops them doing that.

Okay, end of typing now   Lots of love xx xx xx

[sKePTiKal]

Hmmmm. Reading your clarification I see how complex this question is. There is a lot going on in trying to get a satisfying answer, for you. I know my process and yours are totally different. But I'm listening...

and it might not be useful, but perhaps separating the thought processing from the emotional processing would simplify what you're working on? Or at least maybe putting things that are really bothering you into column A or B... would be enough to get started?

I know that there are places like this in my own grieving process, and to date, I couldn't exactly say I had any intentional process or system for getting through it. But it did kinda happen that way - starting with knowing exactly what I felt about things... and then thinking about them, without getting swept up in the feelings.

and HEY... maybe I still don't quite get what you're saying. It happens. Hugs anyway, it sounds uncomfortable.

[lighter]

Tupp:

I think a good rule of thumb, for discerning helping vs enabling, is whether we're enabling someone to remain stuck, or helping them move through their problem. 

Life isn't always that simple, though, I realize. 

Lighter

[Hopalong]

every time I jumped in to fix someone else's problem, I was denying them the chance TO LEARN HOW TO FIX IT FOR THEMSELVES

That's great, Tupp. Must've been a terrific T. I love this insight.

hugs
Hops