Farm Doin's - 2020

[lighter]

Yikes, Hops.  Change that M POA over healthcare issues pronto.  I can't imagine the threads of unhappiness if you had to endure M making decisions for you in a health scare.   

You'd be all.... "I know he's my POA, BUT...." then you'd get drowsy and M would continue on.

Then you'd wake up and be all.... "I thought I told you M's NOT my....." then you get drowsy again and wake up to M.

Nope nopity nope nope NOPE.

Uh uh. 

Lighter

[Hopalong]

LOL!
You are sooo right, Lighter.

I'll shove it on top of the paperwork to-do pile.

hugs
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

It's OK Hops. I hijacked my own thread as a reminder to everyone who hasn't dealt with things.

Yeah, all my creative projects tend to be over-sized.  LOL. I like to work BIG. Guess that's one reason Buck was so attractive... we'll see what happens when he's done dealing with all his past. BIG stuff to process. Except for being tired, he's doing pretty good with it all. He said he never felt right with what happened after the injury - he could've been medically retired then - and this training mission let him close out that part of his life on his own terms. Not everyone gets to do that. So it's likely a bigger deal than he's letting on right now. But he's no longer moving into a future with a nothing in it. My crazy projects and plans were a big part of the attraction for him. He can remain useful and needed; along with the personal stuff. It was a big attraction to me too...

I NEED to have the "impossible" to work my way toward. Little by little. So I don't feel "old". Right now, I have an impossibly energetic Hol who can SMELL how close the time is to move into the hut. She's jumping out of her skin to do something to further the progress. Therefore my rock wall is well underway today. LOLOLOL. Door knobs were delivered today; switchplates last week - we're down to that level of detail now.

She just can't contain her excitement.... it's definitely entertaining.... LOLOLOLOL.

[lighter]

Amber:

I'd like to suggest Hol considering a final edit BEFORE moving all her stuff into the hut.

What we say NO to is more important that what we say YES to, IME.

Maybe scheduling a GOODWILL pick up would help her find her perspective and make good use of all that energy.

Not sure.

Just say'in.  She might be glad she did.

Lighter

[sKePTiKal]

New problem; need to talk things through.

Hol & Steve have gotten it in their heads to not like Buck. A lot of it is due to his background; that's scary to them. And they are working hard to associate bad things that have happened - coincidentally, in fact - to associate them with him and blame him for them. To the point that even quiet Steve joined in the discussion - which was sort of a presentation of an ultimatum to me, without using those words - that I've allowed myself to indulge in wishful fantasies about how things will be and who he is, in reality. As in, mom's doing something really irresponsible that is going to impact us and our ability to create our own life here. I kept hearing "he makes us really uncomfortable", "you don't really know who he is" (as if they do haviing a lot less engagement with him - and that's all been recent), and "once he's here - regardless of how you feel then - it's going to be much more difficult to change your mind about this relationship".

SIGH. I'm truly hoping this is their "ace card"... and it can all be chalked up to they think their experience of the world and less positive sides of it, is more informed than mine and that once they DO get to know him better, they'll see what is persona vs the real person as well as I do. I heard their concerns, understand them - as well as their motivations - and I don't dismiss it. It's still real to them, even if I have a completely different perspective.

As I start sorting things out, I'll provide more details. This is going to take some days to get clear in my own head - but there are some actions I can take in the meantime for good or ill, that might work into the mix as I try to find a way to reassure them, let them know they can't "demand" anything of me (which is what some of the "conversation" amounted to), and entails taking a risk with what Buck and I have, to this point. I'm completely not OK, with the implication that I'm naive, easily manipulated, and perhaps not acting in my own best interests. I know where that goes legally. (Which is about as airtight, as it can be, protectively for me.)

The hut can't be done soon enough. (A good bit of this has been generated in Hol's "I need to create a problem to solve so I'm taken seriously", script of behavior. Because she is denying something that I can see with my own two eyes - but she won't accept is true and then deal with it - in HERSELF.) Yeah, gaslighting to a degree.

[Hopalong]

Oh, Amber.
I'm so very sorry.

There's a sense of horror in adult children beginning to have opinions about your financial/legal whatever wellbeing waaaaaaaaaay before it's time to step in and "take over." I personally experienced that horror with a different adult child with different issues, but I did in my case have to face that I had gradually become a "resource" in her mind. Once the financial advantages closed, so did her heart.

I'm not saying Hol doesn't love you. Of course she does. But I AM saying that a youngish and not very stable adult with a drinking problem and jail time under her belt is WAAAAAAAY out of her lane trying to control or dominate or "manage" you.

FWIW, I continue to be concerned at times about the detailed intensity of what you share with her, and the degree to which you expose your innards and intimate thought processes for her listening and evaluation, because (imo) even though you want her to be a best friend, she's not able to be. She just doesn't have the maturity yet, and when your yearning for that closeness overwhelms your capacity to look at oversharing with her objectively, I fear that enmeshment results that could really harm you as you (and Buck) get older.

I don't know why they don't like Buck. Maybe it's his image or his militariness or his demeanor or his politics or his whatever. But they don't have to like Buck. They should be, but likely can't be forced to be, civil and mature and polite and restrained and SOCIALLY DISTANT and calm around him (and you, for that matter). They should bury their noses in their own business and keep them there.

And if there is ANY maneuvering around inheritance, honey, I'd write Hol out of the will/trust immediately, provide her a new copy, and lovingly explain that the only way she gets back IN is if she treats your adult-woman boundaries with absolute respect from this moment forward. And mean it. But you'd have to behave as though you embrace those boundaries yourself, and also sacrifice some intimacy with her (read: codependence). Are you able? It's time!

On your end, I think my biggest hope for you is that you stop analysing and inviting and opening up like an oyster -- YOUR life, for her examination. She's just not equipped to understand all that maturely. And you need to be okay without her understanding or "we-ness" or approval.

I am definitely jaundiced by my own enmeshed experience of trying to make my D into a best friend. She could not be, and it took a long time in therapy before I realized that unwittingly, I was trying to maneuver her into that role. I HAD TO finally accept an emotional separation even before she left....that she would and never could be my intimate pal. That here adult self was not the fulfillment of my mothering dreams, and that this is part of the ticket price when you have a child. Happy or sad, you release the outcome. That this is meet. And right. And natural. And how it should be when they have grown into their own. We HAVE to let go.

(All of my reaction here could be SOOOOO off base because of my different experience with a different adult child, and please do forgive me for the 90% of it that's likely unfitting to you, your experience with Hol and Steve and their hangers-on, etc. I count on you to TOSS what's useless!)

But in the event that some wee part is....are they worried that B might have more presence and influence than they do? Heck yeah, if he's your partner or husband or mate, he will. Because you and he are the grownups. And you OWN the place. (Sorry, don't care what age they are, but with drinking and driving and refusing to return tools or just grow up, they don't get the co-grownup title yet. I hope they soon will!) And that question (what is the deep reason behind your resistance to Buck, my dears?) should never be asked out loud, of course. You do not need to get into their heads. You should avoid the insides of their heads, and they yours!

Oh so hoping I didn't make it worse for you. I could have my head in the dark and stinky place.

Big hugs,
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Hops - will do on your recommendation. I haven't spilled guts yet. But essentially, Hol's line in the sand is me or B. She is setting that up - again. I've had husbands pull this crap. And they got their effort shot down. No, I don't overshare or discuss intimate details. I mind my boundaries with her... and so she's resorted to this. And has backup in Steve.

CB - you read my mind. I'm going to do precisely as you've said and relax for a bit. I know exactly what I can do, in this situation - and it's a range of things. But for now... I don't have to do a thing. I heard them out. Said their comfort & safety is important to me. Even addressed some of the more esoteric things that came up.

But I won't lie about it. I feel cornered - forced into a decision not out of need, but someone else's comfort (why am I responsible for that again?) and the claws won't exactly retract just yet. I know I need to wait for clarity.

I have explained to B what position I'm in - and why. And proposed that another trip with a planned activity where they can actually interact with him and get to know him better MIGHT help. It might not. He might not want to try. They are biased and prejudiced in this instance (without evidence to justify it) and couching the ultimatum in "concern for me". There are so many things wrong with that I don't know which piece I want to attempt to pick up first without getting my hands all icky. B and I don't even have a definite timing for him to actually move and be here, anyway - talk about putting the cart before the horse. His D won't go off to college until Septermber-ish... and he still has to sel his house.

And I'm back to figuring out how to pick a turd while keeping my hands clean. Wow.

So I wait for inspiration, clarity, getting my nose off the pebbles... and I contain my self.

[lighter]

Amber:

I went back and re read your OP.... I didn't see an actual threat.  What do you feel Hol and Steve's ultimatum WOULD BE, if they made one?  That they'd leave?  Try to have you committed?  M arrested?  Go no contact with you until you cleared your head of this fantastical silliness, that is your life?  My, God.  What nerve, in any case, making threats of any sort. 

I fall somewhere between Hops and CB's responses, btw. 

I'd feel a burning necessity to calmly pee a definitive line around what's MINE to worry about, and what's Hol's to worry about.  I'd ignore S's involvement, I think.   This is between you and Hol, IMO. 

Steve has as much say in your relationship with Hol as B does.  B matters.  He matters to you.  S matters.  He matters to Hol.  You have boundaries around these relationships, as long as no one is getting injured, IME.  It's hands off each other's relationships.  Seems pretty obvious to me, but not to Hol.  Not right now.

For what it's worth, it's looking like Hol and S about to overstep a very serious boundary, IME.  I'd go so far as to use the term "interpersonal terrorism" IF they do make ultimatums.  For me, that's very serious behavior.  That's something requiring swift response, and very pointed sharing of information HOL and S need to make big boy and girl decisions going forward.  They aren't children.  They should know they can't tantrum their way into gaining your compliance, IME.

THis is what I don't get.....

Hol KNOWS you pretty well.  What makes her believe this kind of ultimatum, if that's what it is, would gain your compliance? 

What makes Hol believe she's the one with all YOUR answers, when she's got plenty to tend to on her own plate?

WHY does S believe he has any say in your relationship with B....
at ALL?  Ever.  In any way? 

To me, that smacks of Hol and S sitting around, catastrophizing about WHAT IFs, and I get that.  I've done it.  I've lived in that head space FOR YEARS. 

If S and Hol sit around, whipping each other into frenzies over your relationship with B and perhaps how scary B would be to deal with IF he were to become unstable..... controlling..... DANGEROUS..... violent in ways they absolutely wouldn't be able to handle..... that's honestly a pretty scary scenario to think about.  I can imagine Hol and S are both living in their limbic systems a lot anyway, with COVID and Hol's loss of control in other areas of her life... work....the court.... her issues with fertility...... unhelpful coping strategies she'd do well to explore and tend to, herself. 

Knowing you, Amber.....
in what world does Hol believe she has a right to leverage you into complying with her demands... and I'm not sure what exactly she's demanding, or what might happen if you fail to comply... again... you sense this is the direction they're taking. I wonder if that's true, or if they're just being what they feel is VERY FRANK about their feelings of what's true. 

As you said, they're entitled to have their feelings.

You're entitled to have yours about Hol and S.  Feelings aren't right or wrong,  they just are.   

There have to be boundaries, thought, for both you and Hol. 

The men are partners, not mother and daughter.  This is between you and Hol, IME.  Hol needs and requires a very vivid picture of how things work, where she ends and you begin and what's hers to tend to and yours to tend to, IME.  In some ways, I think she'll be calmed and reassured, like a child, when you set and hold healthy boundaries for yourself.  You'll be modeling how to do it FOR HER, as well.  It's ALL good.   No need to freak out or get upset.  Every need to be calm consistent mom, showing Hol how the world works.... helping her through it, but not enabling in any way or pussy footing around the information she needs to make sense of her world.

It's OK to speak up. 

It's not OK to use interpersonal terrorism to force another adult to comply, or else. 

Respectful behavior should go both ways.  Anything else shouldn't be tolerated,
 IME.   

Nipping this kind of think IN THE BUD seems proactive and uber helpful, IME.

I know you're super capable of figuring out what boundaries you want in place, and what consequences would be appropriate, so I have no suggestions about that.

I know you'll handle this as well as it can be handled, Amber.

I think B will help you stay grounded, and able to be responsive,  which is what Hol needs right now, IME.
 

Lighter

[lighter]

Remember, Amber.

You can't control Hol or how she'll respond.  Things get exponentially complicated when we try to plan around controlling other people's reactions, IME.  It can't be done, in any case, so why not dismiss it and get on with what we CAN do?

Control is yourself.  Things look a whole lot simpler when we remember what's ours to worry about, and what's not, IME.
 
Take care of your business.... prioritize self care.  Enjoy this long awaited time with B without adult kids kicking rocks and eating bologna samiches in your space.  On your land.  Hol isn't there to save you from yourself.  She shouldn't be allowed for a moment to feel that's her job or you require her to do that for you.  It's simply on or OFF the table, IMO.

I hope you pay attention to any feelings around NEEEDING everyone to get along and BE OK. 

That's not your job.  That's not a job any one person should have to be responsible for.  Everyone is responsible for themselves and their actions.  I'm guessing B will be straightforward and super easy to understand.  That may be part of what bothers Hol and S, btw.  They likely have the idea he can't be terrorized or manipulated into doing ANYTHING.  He likely doesn't put up with bologna of any sort, particularly when disrespected and pushed.  That they're trying with you might mean they have the idea they CAN get traction with threatening you.  Maybe you DO care too much.  Feel you should control how things go.   Control how things work out or don't.  Feel responsible? 

If Hol and S can't be civil and respectful on THE farm.... maybe they'd do well to move into S's farm for a while.... maybe 6 months, to be reviewed sooner or later?  To reveiw their stance and feelings in the manner.  Hol doesn't have to subject herself to the stress that is being around you and B.  She isn't your keeper.  She doesn't have to play that very stressful role of controlling another adult, Lord... what a nightmare.  She can go elsewhere, and perhaps should, rid herself of that chore that never belonged to her in the first place.

If things continue to go well with B, perhaps Hol considers giving  up the Holly Hut in favor of her name on a bank account instead, or whatever is fair.  IF she really can't get along and look to her own life.

 Life is too short to waste your last 15 or so years being emotionally jerked around and bullied by an adult child,   If that's how HOl wants to spend the next 15 years, you can't control her.   She just might have to find someone else to hold the other end of that rope, bc you might just drop your end.  That's OK too. Right?

YOU'VE earned your joy, Amber. What must Hol be suffering to attempt to stand in the way of your
happiness?  I do believe she's suffering, btw.  I just don't have the answers and no one,  but Hol, can.


That's HER job.   

That's not your job.

Trust she'll figure it out for herself, then turn back to what's on your plate.   

Honestly,  I don't know why B and S are involved in any of these discussion when this is really about Hol and you and your relationship. 

Hol either has the power and control over you and your relationships, and choices, or she doesn't.  For some reason, she believes she has it.

IMO, this isn't about B at all.   It's about Hol's insecurities and inability to regulate her emotions.

Her anxiety ramps up, and she doesn't have the skills to manage it, perhaps. 

I imagine a very nice Sikh T would help you and Hol move swiftly through these matters if you were lucky enough to find one,  and open to it.

A neutral third party might get Hol's attention where you haven't been able to.

Lighter
 

[sKePTiKal]

OK - the emotional dust & gaslighting glitter is settling now. Thank y'all for those GREAT ideas, the feedback and advice and support. But I gotta tell ya - now that I've had a chance to think, sleep (thank you bourbon), and touch base with Buck and John the REAL PICTURE is now coming clearer to me. The situation is different than it first appeared. The gaslighting cloud around all I talked about yesterday was like thick wet fog.

John got it in 1 when I texted him. He asked if she was REALLY uncomfortable with Buck or if it was only safer to get mad at him; blame him. He and I had detected this pattern of hers, while John was still here on a daily basis. There's no denying it's real; instead of confronting S and making a decision about their relationship -- she offloads on someone else. It's been John, me, and from time to time, Buck. The night before, she'd been up talking to me about she kinda wished she could move into the hut 3 weeks before S did -- because he didn't seem emotionally invested in the fact they were about to get their own house -- and was physically unavailable to assist with moving things when they had to be staged for installation. She was visibly angry. Kinda hard to miss with her - no mindreading or enmeshment or oversharing necessary. (A predominant pattern; he does only what he feels like doing - never collaborating or participating in joint projects or even social situations - but she has to drop everything when he's isolated himself so much he's lonely and needs her attention. He's not available or "doesn't feel like it" when she needs him.)

So Buck was the scapegoat in this "presentation of concern" which actually boils down to S, egging her on to confront me about how uncomfortable HE feels having a person come live here that despite the opportunities available, he assidously avoided having contact with or getting to know. They wouldn't even eat dinner with us when I cooked. I'm pretty sure S isn't ballsy enough to try to tell me what to do - in my own house - because he wants to insure HIS comfort. So he put her up to it. Which explains how nervous she appeared to me. SHE knows better than to try to tell me what I can/can't do. And wild guess, is that she realizes her relationship isn't going anywhere she wants it to go. She's made herself his spokesperson - because he will not speak, except rarely, to anyone but her in a candid or authentic fashion.

Lots of transference - insisting I have no proof that anything Buck's told me about himself is true (and how pray tell shall I find out? Hmmm. 3 background checks turned up nothing and my radar hasn't pinged either to make me DIStrust him) is the substitute for the fact that S has been here the same amount of time and she knows even LESS about S. In fact, her whole performance would've made a lot more sense if she were talking about S rather than Buck... hence my swirling cognitive dissonance cloud.

So S put Hol in the middle; making her risk her relationship with me (I stayed calm and logical because this isn't the first time these "concerns" have been brought forth. It's just the first time S deigned to grace us with his presence while she was speaking FOR him.) And if it's not this excuse - it'll be something else. And the way she left things with me, that afternoon, was that I would try to brainstorm a way to reassure them, that it is important to me that they aren't uncomfortable or feel unsafe here... and that seemed to satisfy HER, but not him. She even said - you'll probably just do what you want to do anyway. Well YEAH. I own everything including the hut - and as of this moment - there is NO land lease agreement. She hasn't gotten the occupancy permit yet (it's close; maybe next week).

So I've bought myself some time to let all this calm down in my head/feeings - and get very very clear about my next steps. B is hoping to return for a visit next month; at which time there will a mandatory attendance dinner, at the very least. S can either speak directly to B about his fear or not. I don't really give a shit. Meanwhile, Hol and I are going to have a very straightforward heart to heart talk - again - about the hierarchy of things around here; what she's knows already about her relationship - and what has to happen for her to feel it's a two-way relationship. Or not. I've consistently told her when she's brought up the issue before that it's entirely up to her but I'll back her up any way I need to. This is ALMOST the exact same scenario that she put herself through with Bovie; the last relationship. But she's already said she isn't going to waste 9 more years of her life - or put herself through the "trying to be good enough" to be treated as an equal partner - again.

Hops - I hear you about oversharing, mindreading, and enmeshment. And while Hol and I ARE really close, I've kept a lot of B & my's relationship to myself. She doesn't need to know, as long as she knows I'm happy - and she truly does want me to be happy. I haven't pried into her relationship w/S; but the patterns are obvious and out in the open. And she isn't shy at all, at openly talking through how she feels about it when he's not around. And then the mask goes back on... because she wants his attention/affection. As if she's not attractive and lovable enough, and has to settle for this which is right in front of her. No matter how frequently he makes her feel angry with him or frustrated or alone within the relationship. Some time back - maybe last year - in the heat of some of her loud protestations (I can't call them arguments per se) she made threats about leaving. I checked in with myself -- and realized that while I would be a little sad I'd be just fine if she took off. And that was before B and I decided to go ahead with him moving here. We've lived apart for 20 years and the relationship has still accommodated the distance. In fact, the original plan was the Hut would be where she lived when she wasn't working on location somewhere around the country. For months at a time. So it wasn't based on her being here 365/24/7.

Current affairs in the world have definitely impacted the reality of the situation. And I know it's way more attractive to spend time alone in the woods with a companion and bedwarmer... but she is very aware of the lack of participation, financial contribution, and additional work of this particular choice. I said in front of S - you can't go around expecting people to change so much that they stop being themselves. Her eyes got a little wide; her mouth stayed shut. The topic was B -- but even I know how convey a truth without pointing direcctly at the one I'm referencing. She got it. And as long as the gaslighting backs off a little, she'll figure it out. It's not the first time I've brought that up and it goes back a ways - her pretzeling her around S and mommying him while she isn't getting equal in return; and trying to make him be something he just ISN'T. No amount of conversation, explanation of feelings, etc is going to change who he is.

So I'm still in "do nothing right now" phase. Just needed to talk this out, coz I know it looked COMPLETELY different yesterday to me -- and that's what I expressed and you all reacted to. Instead of me having the heart to heart about the CLASSIC signs of his behavior in this relationship with her, I believe I'm going to suggest that she find someone else - a T - to see. I think she needs to own for herself, once and for all, what a healthy relationship consists of and then create her own version of what she wants. I'll be more than happy to support that - even if I'm not fond of the guy, but if he makes her consistently unhappy, in the same way over & over - and I have suspicions of even more ulterior motives... I think I can be a little upfront with HER about MY concerns. We have always been able to tell each other things we didn't want to hear. And that's not been damaged by yesterday's little kabuki theater performance.

My plan is go over the mountain today for some errands and have alone time in the car. There is a huge contingent of vehicles and contractors here today. And I think I hear another one coming down the drive (I'm out back on my private deck).

Oh. And when I explained to B what was going on his response was - what do you want me to do? I'll do whatever you want, when you want it. I just want you babe; not your money nothing else - I'll live in a tarpaper shack, as long as you'll be with me. He's said I've helped him feel joy again; access those parts of himself that a soldier doesn't have the luxury to feel or be. And he really doesn't want to be the reason for causing me any of this current stinking uproar. And it doesn't even have to be an uproar.

It can be simple, cut & dried. They've appealed to me to consider their concerns. I've said I'll think on it. I will make a decision and they can either live with it here - or elsewhere. Completely up to them. And if he doesn't want to -- then she has a decision to make. Her hut will still be here. And she can do her dance with him and make up her mind - while leaving us in peace. It doesn't have to be fraught with a lot of hard feelings either. I put in 5 years of supporting her emotionally while she decided what to do with Bovie... and in the end, she forced HIM to make the decision. I'm not doing that again and I've already told her so. And I'd be tickled pink if she did this somewhere else and it didn't involve me on a daily basis.

[lighter]

Well that makes sense out of a very odd conversation with Hol and S.  I don't have time to comment, but am familiar with that kind of tactic.  IME it speaks to red flags flying all around, very toxic, chaos manufacture behaviors increasing, not getting better.  I'm talking about S here.  Not Hol.

Thanks for the update, Amber.
Lighter

[sKePTiKal]

OH... when I asked what would satisfy their concerns... it was made clear that they have no idea; it was "we don't want B here at all". Which went over like a lead balloon. Neither of them has the standing to ask me for that.

And she just now sought me out to tell me that she was acting as S's spokesperson, because of his anxieties. Which he doesn't feel safe enough to voice even after seeing how calm and non-confrontational I heard them out. I told her I  figured that out. She's knows what IS around here... and she knows how many allowances I've made to accomodate S's behaviors etc for the sake of her trying to create a relationship with him.

For him to ask me to forsake what Buck & I have been planning for years, takes some chutzpah now, let me tell ya. Especially when you're not materially, financially, or emotionally investing in a relationship or where you live.

She knows where all this leads, for her, as well as I see it. I offered to take her with me over the mountain today but she's going to piddle around painting a dresser I'm giving her, for a nightstand in the hut bedroom. She is also doing deep thinking about this too. We'll convene in the studio - our usual discussion/planning/sorting things out place - later. It'll be interesting to see what, if anything, she's really thinking.

The driving will help clear my head, and I have to have a special saw to cut down my stone for the wall. I'd go look to see if there's one in my garage - but Mr Pigpen's mess makes it impossible to find ANYTHING in there. She said it just wasn't worth trying to look. Because everything has been moved around so many times it's not where we last saw it. Including tools from Mike's toolboxes which were carefully labeled & organized... and now strewn & piled everywhere - including outside where they've rusted.

still, too, etc. I don't think S realizes how afraid he should be if BOTH of us are mad at him at the same time.

[sKePTiKal]

S'OK lighter - this needs to sit a little for everyone. And I have to get moving to get done what I intend to, need to do today.

[Hopalong]

((((Amber))))

You're thinking so hard I can smell the brainsmoke coming over the mountains.

One thing went pink-ping:

....Hol and I are going to have a very straightforward heart to heart talk - again - about ... what she's knows already about her relationship - and what has to happen for her to feel it's a two-way relationship. Or not.

The hierarchical stuff yes of course YAY. But this...my first thought about the above was, No no no nooooo. Don't have the mother telling the daughter they are going to discuss the daughter's relationship again. What she knows, what has to happen, etc. Because i-m-n-h-o (sorry) this IS a risk of over-involvement. She's 40! One of those places where at some point, the relationship needs to be LESS close. For Hol to grow up, think for herself without so much parental input or quasi-therpist parental input (cf., "transference" etc), and (soon, Lord) make wiser more self-loving decisions. Your eagerness to analyse and instruct and direct is an honest aptitude well earned, but I think in terms of this nuclear relationship, I think undermines her maturation.

THEN, you promptly solved what I was worrying about:

I believe I'm going to suggest that she find someone else - a T - to see. I think she needs to own for herself, once and for all, what a healthy relationship consists of and then create her own version of what she wants.

Yes, oh YES.

So good to read this today. Gotta run, two teenaged boys coming to weed. Aaack!

Hugs,
Hops

[lighter]

I'm with CB on the tools, except....
S would have to stop touching them altogether, always and forever.  Locking the shed,  and not allowing him to pig it up, move or destroy another thing is what I feel he's earned.  I'm not mad he got into M's tools, but I am sure there's a consequence waiting to be delivered without racor or any emotion, other than regret and sadness it's come to this.

S was warned, and pleaded with, I assume, from Hol's end.  Maybe yours too, Amber.

It doesn't really matter if Hol is upset by S being upset, bc he WILL send her to you with complaints and more threats, no doubt.

When I was dealing with this sort of sabotage from youngest dd's bf...... dd was coming to me too.  As messenger, as peace maker, as the person who felt she could control everything and everyone and I think she honestly believed she had that power. 

Over the months she learned SHE DID NOT have that power, and I'll cut right to the chase before blathering on about details....
DD went from mortified, wide eyed horror over discussion boundaries with the boy, putting them in place and following through with consequences
to
being
a
stone
cold
Amazon
Warrior
Princess
delivering
consequences
without having to think about it....
she just DID and it was MAGNIFICENT to behold.   

She'd stopped coming to me and trying to resolve issues FOR ME or for the little man and I hand't really noticed when. 

I mean..... I'm still in awe of her poise and power and calm.

I'm going to stop talking about before I jinx it.

Lighter