N.

[Hopalong]

Meh,
I don't believe there is a "right" or "wrong" time to process your path to mental freedom. I spent YEARS (living with Nmom) analysing, reading, breaking it down, spotting and recognizing the behaviors, figuring out sloooooowly what behaviors and damage it all left in me.....

There were times I was absolutely thrilled about getting a new insight into Nism. Every single small thing I learned about it felt like the window to my mind had opened another inch and more oxygen was breezing in. There were times I felt so drained by it that I was paralysed into that work-home-survive thing you've experienced so much of.

It's easy to say at 75, but time does heal. It doesn't perfect, but it does heal. My mother, at 98, finally left the planet. And eventually, left me too. And in time, I found out more about her, and unavoidable compassion and forgiveness occurred.

That said, I seldom think of her in my liberated life now, and I don't wake up thinking about narcissism. Endlessly grateful for a name for it, I'm just living and writing, and facing up to my own mess now. Not liking it, but not ashamed.

I think you're beginning to weigh and value and defend your OWN TIME.

hugs
Hops

[lighter]

What you're describing, Meh.....feels adjacent to my "nose on pebble" lesson in therapy.

When one's nose is ON the pebble/problem/trauma/person,/people who created the trauma...

the pebble is HUGE .....
it's all we see.

Once we learn to create some distance......emotional distance.... the crude up and view the entire field....
we begin to see the other pebbles.
We see grass and flowers.....
we see trees and eventually sky and stars and moon and sea. Amazing.

Learning to meditate/breathe/rest our limbic systems.....
creates a split second of choice, IME.

Choice to NOT tumble down old, familiar rabbit holes of reactivity....of lightening fast brain pathways.

It builds a split second to SEE choice, and sometimes select it, IME.....to build on new choices.  Build them strong.

Your father and mother are pebbles, and you're learning how to create enough distance to see other things.....
this is HUGE, Meh!!! IME, of course.

In your experience, it may feel like something else.  I look forward to hearing about it.

[Meh]

Thanks. You can see I was having a bit of trouble getting focused there.

The other question I had was this: Do you have examples of learned helplessness? Have you experienced it in yourself?

This area is something I want to work on as well as "agency."

The thing is I listened to a book on tape about anticipation anxiety and it really FITS VERY WELL I think my habits/behaviors.

So I am wondering if learned helplessness and anticipation anxiety basically are two terms to describe the same thing OR if these things are different.

Couple days ago I had to clean out my voicemail on my phone for example. Now this sounds pathetically dumb but my heart just kind of squeezed in at the thought of doing it. I don't mean "heart squeezed in" just as a phrase of speech. I actually had a physical sensation of dread, fear, loathing, stress, anxiety... something.. .heck even heart brokenness. And this was all about the SMALL TASK of clearing my voicemails... now it could be that it's 1) I feel I have not much to look forward to 2) most the voicemails I get are spam or some kind of headache to deal with. Maybe I am hoarding voicemails like a timestamp of past events.

Maybe the small task of clearing voicemails feels emotionally loaded. And things that are emotionally loaded I just have to focus on that one thing and do a small portion of it take ACTION and then it's just no longer a big deal I think.

In any case I did go through some of my voicemails and it wasn't a big deal when I actually did it.

Now I suspect there is a procrastination anxiety anticipation anxiety thing where the gravity of consequence is significant. Like how when a person is living paycheck to paycheck that deposit into your account has consequences if it doesn't get in there. But when you have savings there is no consequence it's just a routine maintenance thing after a while.

In any case I really do have to research learned helplessness, forced helplessness, agency, and "anxiety" a bit more.
I will just give myself allowance to do that when I can. I think it's worth it. I don't think that is merely over-intellectualization. I mean it sort of is but there could be something useful in it.

Is being too stressed and over-whelmed the same as learned helplessness. Maybe it is.

Have any of you worked on this learned helplessness thing? What is it for you?

Okay so I am going off to get something done today.

[Meh]

 It appears that I am reading GAD is same as learned helplessness. It's just that in books about anxiety they don't use the term learned helplessness and they do not say what caused it. I suppose it doesn't matter as long as one attempts to use some techniques. So this also means procrastination is linked to learned helplessness.

[Hopalong]

Thanks for bringing all that up, Meh. It's been satisfying to think about this morning, like a tuneup.

I learned from some article recently that procrastination and disorder are often features of ADHD, my particular bugaboo. Perfectionism slides in with it, in the sense that I fall into sloughs during which I don't do a basic thing (over and over) because I've already told myself I have to do it perfectly, like Dad's excellent but OCD map making, or old M cooking like it's an Olympic competition. Perfectionistic rumination is paralysing. Starts a cycle...oh, I know I'll screw it up, so why try? The world is bad, people are bad, I have no power to change my life so why try? (By now I know better than to accept this justification but also know my self-talk is where it starts.)

For me, perfectionism = anxiety that sometimes runs away with me. It's really fear of STARTING a new behavior, because what if I don't complete it just right? That makes a whole cascade of fear of older age or incompetence kick in.

I once interviewed Martin Seligman for a book chapter, and read his book, Learned Optimism. No self-help theory is magical, imo, but this one did grind off a lot of my resistance to hopefulness. There must be newer authors examining this now.

I haven't learned anything theoretical about why writing absorbs me so much I can have pinpoint focus or work on something for hours and hours. (The gift within the problem of adhd for some people is an ability to hyperfocus in some area.) I know I feel happy as I work on ideas like voluntary simplicity (not minimalism, exactly), or music (neglected piano), or simply a small painting. I need to create because when I do, some positive action in duller parts of life feels more natural.

I haven't worked with my HANDS in ages, unless typing counts, LOL. And there's a hand-brain connection that...does something good. Explains gardening and art, imo.

hugs
Hops

[Meh]

The rotting stagnant narcissist watches me just stares and stares. When I try to pack up my bag with my computer etc. They try to look at every item I touch. It's unsettling. It feels VERY gross and uncomfortable. I googled it and landed on a video where someone else is saying just this thing about covert narcissists specifically they just watch and stare and stare.

It seems to be that narcissists are way MORE disturbed than most people believe.

[Hopalong]

Oh, yeah. Their creepy glare has NO POWER you don't give it.
And from your observing (instead of enmeshing), you know you are different.

Grey rock technique...over again.

Oxygen at you....

hugs
Hops

[Meh]

"Awareness vs. Impairment: Someone in a wheelchair isn't choosing not to walk to spite you. A person with high-level narcissistic or psychopathic traits, however, is often making a series of tactical choices to maintain power, hide their tracks, and exploit others.

The "Mask of Sanity": This is a term often used in psychology to describe how abusers and psychopaths can appear perfectly normal—even charming—to the outside world. This ability to "switch it on and off" suggests a level of control that a typical disability doesn't have.

Harm as a Tool: For a child abuser or a psychopath, the "malfunction" isn't just a personal struggle; it is a predatory orientation toward other people."

It's Google generated text.

[Meh]

- I will probably come back to this and edit it.

1) Yesterday I called my crap health insurance and asked for some phone numbers to try to make appt to see a therapist. One of the phone numbers they gave me is for a male out of state which is not what I was looking for. One of the phone numbers they gave me was incorrect. One of the phone numbers they gave me was for a place that has over a month waiting list to get in and that is not for a therapy appoint it's to establish care with a PCP which is not really what I want to do. So today no progress on that. People always say "just go see a therapist." Sinking too much energy into the frustration is somewhat not going to help me but also I kinda have to go through this stupid process.

The incorrect phone number I did get the correct phone number and then I left a message yesterday and never heard back and then I left a message again today and never heard back. I guess these are small businesses not a large business. I miss having good insurance which I haven't had for a long long time. In the past I would call and someone would answer right away and I could get an appointment in maybe two weeks.

2) Time online. Sometimes something useful comes out of it sometimes not.
3) Christian Realism -- I've been interested in it this week although I am deeply an atheist. Perhaps it's just the realism part that appeals to me.
4) Loneliness - I was reflecting on how when people use the word lonely it can mean more than ten things.
5) Unwellness - thinking about how emotional unwellness can feel like a gross subtle feeling not necessarily in the stomach but also like someone has the flu and is weak and wants to puke. I don't have a term for this feeling and "disturbed" is too vague and too stigma.
6) I'm really freaking tired.
7) My hair is wet and when it's dry I am going out today. And it's snowing. Tired. Tired. Tired. Tired.
Online resources (I'm not referencing voicelessness here) - there are online communities related to mental health stuff and I find that sometimes the distraction feels a) useful psychologically but also b) a time waste and c) an addiction - it amazes how many people get online and all they say over and over is "I'm bored." -- I'm not bored. I feel stuck. Maybe I am stuck maybe it's not a sensation.
9) tired
10) tired
11) tired
blah blah blah...
Maybe it looks like I am complaining but I can't manage my thoughts. If things bounce around in my synaptic nerves I can't deal with it. I need to write it out. I need to look at it. I need to see it and reflect what is important here. What is not important. The (5) unwellness feeling is speaking to me.
I'm not hungry. I am still going to put food in me and drink more water. And get ready slowly go do departure mode aka packing crap up so I can go out the door.

I made it outside and.
And... what I will add here is that I was reading how covert-collapsed narcissism does have an element that goes along with it of paranoia. And I think I've had a bit of an ahha moment with this. Rarely but occasionally I guess one gets a weird window into the narcissist... and a couple times when we are outside/outdoors in public.. the narcissist said some really strange things both times. One time they acted like it was a joke but they were starting to talk weird about like undercover FBI agent type stuff. Also the other time the narcissist sorta zoned in on a random guy who was waiting for a woman but the random guy was standing on the sidewalk. It was daylight. There was really nothing sketchy about it at all but the narcissist was creepy-obsessed with this guy all of a sudden becausee the narcissist "didn't like the guy" or whatever and it was just the weirdest thing to me. Like there is no drug dealing going on, there is no car theft happening it's very public, there was no REAL reality legit reason for the N to focus on this guy in such a strange paranoid way.

The ah-ha moment I have had is how really REALLY sick narcissists actually are. Demented. Very weird inside their own minds. And I think this is part of the reason why I am just so uncomfortable being around N. Also there is the forced-engagement over fake pretenses. There are the stupid unwanted "gifts" which are actually demands for attention. There is the very angry lashing out at a person for very pathetic petty basic things etc. I've been monitored by a paranoid covert narcissist for a massive portion of my upbringing.. and it makes sense I think to me that someone as a young person would be maybe "unformed" personality wise or psychologically OR have some emotional regulation issues at times maybe. I am tired. I do not know. The paranoia that a covert narcissist has is just so freaking weird.

[Meh]

"To a narcissist, a reality check is an act of war."

[Meh]

When you are a child of narcissists, your internal world is unsafe to express out loud.

[sKePTiKal]

Meh, your description of yourself as "stuck", struck a bell for me. Along with being "tired".

You're correct, that CoNs know that their survival depends on being quiet, not telegraphing emotion, or giving the N any reason to target oneself for criticism or anything else. Sometimes it happens while practicing that a LOT, like all the time, that one "hides" one's internal world from oneself even - in the fear, that it'll be read on one's face. Ooops.... revealed!

I equated that with a wish to be invisible. LOL. But it was more like my personality, persona, ego, whatever you call it, had been only roughly sketched out - in my inner world. I'd never developed it into a refined finished drawing to present to the outside world. Logically, it follows (at least in my mind) that something that vague and ghostly didn't have a lot of preferences, didn't have much agency or autonomy... wasn't really REAL. It was an idea. And that sure as hell FELT stuck.

Trying to move out of that (and finish the drawing more completely) moved me into an experimental phase; trying things on for size, fit, feel - expression. It wasn't competitive; there wasn't any objective right or wrong (since society is always changing it's standards there) - it was just finding what was comfortable for me, that I felt good about. And I kept going.

Momentum is a strange thing. Once moving, it develops a life of it's own. The only hard part is overcoming the reason for inertia, in the first place. There can be a million different reasons for inertia - fear, resistence, lack of direction, lack of decision, procrastination (as if there is some magically blessed time to begin anything)... and if you're being as honest with yourself as it sounds to me, as you are... you'll figure it out. I got my own struggles with inertia. And knowing when it's my self telling me I NEED to rest or when it's something getting in my way. That I've been putting in my own way, because I internalized something unjust, judgemental, critical or cruel.

Yup; it's still there - but I'm making headway. Usually to do with pick 2-3 little things toward the task and making myself start - because it is something I WANT for myself. For me, it's the want that's the key to kickstarting that momentum. You might find something else that does it for you.

Good luck! (oh - and it helps if you accept any babystep successes at first and don't beat yourself up if you fail to meet a goal the first time)

[lighter]

You seem ready to process, and heal your trauma, Meh.  I'm glad you're actively seeking a therapist to facilitate.

If you'd like more information, or insights, on my perspectives on healing....just ask.

I don't want to slow your flow, of noticing what's there.....behind your discomfort.

The discomfort is just a messenger, IME.....asking for attention. 

Resisting, what's there, typically is the root of my suffering....once I turn to face it.  Even though I know this, it's still exhausting and confusing to sort, as you're doing.  Better with a guide/therapist.

Lighter

[Meh]

Talking about your childhood won't fix the fact that your prefrontal cortex is being bathed in cortisol & damaging brain tissue.

[Meh]

Momentum is a strange thing. Once moving, it develops a life of it's own.

This is a fact.