Author Topic: Narcissism Part II  (Read 52248 times)

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #120 on: January 26, 2005, 07:35:07 PM »
Hi everyone,

This thread is really making me think about stuff.

Bunny wrote:  
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Abusive people are (as luego dude points out) extremely fragile individuals, often operating at an infantile level of emotional defenses, and their projections are very powerful.


This is sure accurate as far as I can tell.

Also:
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How to deal with projections coming at you? The main way for me is to ID that it is mostly a projection (my own feelings will be mixed into it) and that I'm not going to process it for the person. I will let them do it. Then I decide how to give them back the projection in the most neutral way. Usually by hardly reacting at all, except by saying, "Oh." or "Hmmm." The quickest way to deflect a projection is to react very little.


This sounds like an effective way of dealing with a projection.  In my case, I have no direct contact with the person.  The way they are harming me is through my children as well as other indirect ways.

And:  "There are times when one will 'volunteer' to take in a projection and that's a thought-out decision. "

I have to admit that I volunteer for some other people and sometimes without making that thought out decision.  I will have to remember what you have said and try to be less of a sounding board, if it happens again.

T wrote:  "I'm trying to do what I've advertised here and use language to change/moderate my thinking".

By language do you also mean discussion?  I like your idea.

Even though you were speaking about labels in this next quote, it makes sense in regard to your general idea, I think.

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....more globally, using moderation of language to manage/control/avoid internal stress and negative feelings/self-perception.


If discussion/language can help us to avoid these, let's keep doing it!

Luego wrote:  
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GFN, I’m guessing you’re talking about an abuser you’ve known for a very long time.

Yes I am.

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And that given your descriptions so far, this isn’t only about projections from that person. I think your own feelings in the present are connected to your past, perhaps your shared past. Which makes it more complex.

Right again.

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I’m not asking you to confirm my guessing. We could talk about your abuser’s actual behaviour towards you and your possible responses. But your fear of harm concerns me.


That's ok and thankyou for saying so.  We can't talk about my "abuser's" actual behaviour for a reason I can't discuss.  My fear of harm from my "abuser" is not physical harm but emotional harm that the person does have the power to inflict.  Thankyou for your concern and consideration.

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Can I urge you to talk about this, your fear in particular, with a good therapist? I urge you to do that. Will you do it? With a therapist who works with adult abused children?


Been there done that with, actually, more than one.  There was a 50% success rate (by that I mean that 1/2 of the therapists were out to lunch and caused me more harm than good and 1/2 knew their stuff and were very great help.  The bottom line is that there is nothing I can do to stop my abuser.

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Why do you have to tolerate this person’s abuse now? Please think about this. Because this person can harm you, I guess, or you think they can harm you. Think about what you mean by harm, about the practical aspects of this potential harm, and the emotional aspects.


I will try to think more about this but the real truth is that there is nothing I can do to stop this person from behaving the way they are.  The damage they are causing is to my children, which hurts me twofold in the end and to my reputation, which cannot be recycled into what it was before.  This person has power, knows they have power and is using that power to the uttmost of their ability.  My therapists have all agreed on these points.  The one's who caused harm (therapists) were those who tried to pin the blame on me and who could not believe that I could function the way I am, on my own, without breaking down.  I guess a lot people would have had some kind of breakdown, in circumstances such as mine, but I have not and do not intend to and so far haven't.  My situation is fraught with all kinds of issues that I think caused those therapists to project their "stuff" into my sessions.  We are all human so I do understand.   Took me awhile to be able to say that, though.

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You don’t have to tolerate this person’s abuse, but you might have to change the way you see yourself to do that. Change your thinking about being trapped.


It's hard to imagine that what I am saying is true but it is.  I am trapped.  There is absolutely nothing I can do to change the situation.  The thing I can do is cahnge my thinking, that is right.  The quesiton is...to what?  I'm trapped and I must survive until I am able to escape, later.  That time will come.  I'm doing my very best to try to avoid allowing myself to build up a whole, huge well of negative feelings and to just release them as they occur.  I'm thinking of steps I can take, now and in the future, that will help my children.  I'm  making plans and that does help.

But one thing I would like to know: have you ever been through your childhood experiences with a competent child abuse therapist?

No I have not but I have been to therapists to deal with situations as they occurred.  I became interested in the theories of psychology at a very young age and began applying some of the things I learned by reading.   I don't know that doing that will actually help me.  It's the frustration of having to put up with this person's behaviour, for now, that is difficult.

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... if you go back with a good therapist, you’ll see things differently? And you won’t be alone? And it’s okay to do that because none of us is psychologically built to do these things alone? I couldn’t do it alone. It hurts too much. But on the other side of that hurt is something better. It takes courage and complete trust in a therapist, or a very close and understanding non-judgemental friend.


What do you want me to see differently?  I'm not interested in reliving all of that because I feel like I've dealt with it.  I feel like I understand what happened, why it happened, how I felt at the time, how I coped, how it effected my self-esteem, my attitude, my performance in school, my childhood life.  I think I have improved in some of the areas that were really adversely effected and learned to accept my imperfections.  I have forgiven my "abusers" and feel good about that too.  Am I seeing it wrong somehow?  How will rehashing my childhood help me to tolerate the crazy behaviour of this person in the present?  Because that's really what I'm interested in doing.....tolerating it (for lack of a better word)....until it ends.  And it will end (and not by my hand...as that sentence may suggest).  Honestly, I don't think I have the stamina or the courage to risk an encounter with another therapist in the 50% failure zone.  I have enough to recover from and I just don't need any more.

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Suppose a qualified professional was able to diagnose your current abuser as suffering from NPD?......What difference would that make to you?


I don't think I need a diagnosis.  I know this person is ill.  It doesn't matter what label is put on it.  I would still feel sorry for the person and glad that I have been spared the same or similar illness.  I'm not afraid of the person.  I'm afraid of the harm they are causing by their behaviour, which is not something I have any control over.  A diganosis wouldn't change that.

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Take it easy GFN, these are difficult things to think about, please don’t underestimate that. I respect your ability to cope with what life throws at you. But I’m also sorry that (I’m guessing again) you have been coping alone. It’s too much for one person.


Thankyou Luego.  I know you have to guess a lot because I haven't given specifics and I haven't done so for a reason I'm not able to disclose.   It's not as bad as you may think.  I'm actually a pretty cool kitty and I can take my share of grief.  Sometimes I think it would be better if this person would just come over and beat the living' crap outta me.  At least then the cuts and bruises would heal and it would be over.  The way it is now.....is limbo.  It is like having someone let minute drops of acid fall on your clothing.  You scramble to either rip the clothes off or rince the stuff out.  Either way, you are always on alert and always having to do something to combat the effects of the acid.

I have 2 more years of it to withstand.  Once that time is up....some things will change for the better.  I am a positive, hopeful person with good coping mechanisms, in many respects, and I know I will survive.  And I don't really feel so alone, when I speak here and people like you listen and respond.  I'm in an odd situation that is not easy to deal with.  On the other hand, people have put up with and survived much worse.

bludie wrote:  
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Learning more about NPD helped me clarify some behaviors/characteristics that heretofore defied logic or reasoning.



Me too.

and
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I was able to de-personalize some of this while grieving the loss and experiencing the pain.


It does feel like a personal attack because it is a personal attack.  On the other hand, you're right, it's the illness that causes the behaviour....not the person--me.  My brain gets it.  My heart still grieves.

GFN

Kaz

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #121 on: January 27, 2005, 05:06:23 AM »
T, I'm having a bit of trouble trying to work out your reasoning.
 
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my posts have been clearly in support of abdication of labels for the sake of the labeler


I can see that your argument is true for strangers; that we not judge/label them for superficial reasons (skin colour, height, culture, behaviour, etc.). If we do, we are in fact, superficial and shallow.

But I can't relate this theory to personal relationships.

When I found this board, and had that Eureka moment about my (separated from) husband's behaviour and began to realise that he had the classic narcissistic tendencies, the fact that I could label him with this helped me enormously in beginning my healing process. He was no longer just my ex husband, he was my exN husband. I am no longer attached to him in any way, and can say that I have no need to label him as anything other than my former husband, because he simply doesn't matter anymore in my life. Not because I've chosen to not label him as you advocate we all do, but as a natural process. In fact, I don't think it's possible to do as you say. You can't un-label someone who already has a label eg. husband, girlfriend etc. We label them the minute we start a relationship with them and it just gets added to, in some form or another.

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #122 on: January 27, 2005, 07:11:14 AM »
Guest:

I do not know what your present circumstances are, if you are married have children, economically tied to this individual whatever........what I do know is that you have "awakened" to what your dealing with....whatever you want to label it........it is something that is occurring at you and your children's emotional expense.  I to was trapped and marked time by the days and years until I could escape.  

I eventually became a "mental athelte" to get through.  While it is admirable to slice and dice why "abusers" do what they do and to figure out the why, when and where of it.........and it does help to know this in the scheme of things.........N's could care less about the why of it.  They operate in a emotional vaccum.  I realize this is a global statement about N's.  We should care about them as individuals and what is to become of them.......however, the energy expended  cannot come at the expense of your emotional health.

  I read a Dr. Phil book recently on what it is to be a life manager of your life.  Taking responsiblity for what you will manage in the best interests of your emotional health and well being.  Personally speaking, I can no longer worry about N's.  The only investment I can put into other individuals is the uplifting, positive.......and mutual kind.

Guest, my hope and desire for you is that you can be sustained in your mental health, and to do those things your able to do for yourself right now.  If you know that your situation is going to change in the next two years, then that is a goal within itself.  You can look at the calendar and know each day is a day less in captivity.  I used message boards to gain strength from others, had a close friend in which to confide.  I did not seek a therapist, I felt, in my case I was more capable of handling my situation and making incremental changes.  In other words I felt a therapist would make demands of me that could not work in my situation and would only muddy the waters.  This works from some people, for some it does not.  

Just keep posting.  I just know this place is still a good life line to those who are "there" and who have come out on the otherside.  I in do not know everything about N's, but I do know some things.  I just hope as a newbie to this board that my posts do not come across as "knowing it all" because I don't.  I just have my own experiences for the last 50 years to go by.  Many hugs to all.  Patz

Patz

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #123 on: January 27, 2005, 08:31:52 AM »
Dear Patz,

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I can no longer worry about N's. The only investment I can put into other individuals is the uplifting, positive.......and mutual kind.


That's something I have not considered, the unprofitable emotional investment I am making.  I'm a thrifty person too, so maybe if I try to think of this, next time I find myself having making a deposit, I might be able to choose to pass by such a lousy deal and make a wiser choice.   Good old Dr. Phil!  Thanks Patz.

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I eventually became a "mental athelte" to get through.


Yes, that's what it feels like, in a way, for me too.  I wonder if many people who have to deal with a person who behaves like an N will need to become  mental athletes in order to get by in one piece?

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Guest, my hope and desire for you is that you can be sustained in your mental health, and to do those things your able to do for yourself right now.


Thankyou Patz and I return the hope for you too.  Even if you are no longer trapped, I would guess that there are wounds to heal and scars to get used to.  I'm glad you're here.

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I just have my own experiences for the last 50 years to go by. Many hugs to all.


That's all any of us have and by sharing our experiences, hopefully, we will all learn something, offer supportive feedback, and whether we are new here or not, we all have something to say of value and worth.  You keep posting too Patz.  Hug for you from me.

GFN

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #124 on: January 27, 2005, 10:21:33 AM »
GFN, you have said in your posts:

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I am afraid of what this person is capable of doing to cause me more harm, which compares greatly to the fear I had as a child of being harmed by my abusers then.

My fear is real because this present day person does indeed have the power to cause me great and further harm and I have to be careful not to allow such opportunity.

In my case, I have no direct contact with the person. The way they are harming me is through my children as well as other indirect ways.

My fear of harm from my "abuser" is not physical harm but emotional harm that the person does have the power to inflict.

the real truth is that there is nothing I can do to stop this person from behaving the way they are. The damage they are causing is to my children, which hurts me twofold in the end and to my reputation, which cannot be recycled into what it was before.


So your fear is that the abuser is causing you emotional harm, mainly through your children? And your children are also being damaged emotionally? What do your children say about the situation?

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It's the frustration of having to put up with this person's behaviour

I'm not afraid of the person. I'm afraid of the harm they are causing by their behaviour, which is not something I have any control over.


So you are not afraid of the person themselves. You are afraid of the consequences of them influencing others, including your children? What are the consequences? If you think about the worst that could happen, just how bad is that?

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Sometimes I think it would be better if this person would just come over and beat the living' crap outta me.


This indicates a disagreement between the two of you and that you would like it resolved? Perhaps it would be better if the person said whatever things they have to say, directly to you and beat the crap out of you. Perhaps this is what you want? It also sounds as though you perhaps have some sympathy for their viewpoint too?

We cannot control others but we can attempt to communicate with them and understand why they behave as they do. And if it is important to us, we carry on trying to communicate, or we reach a stage where what they do no longer affects us.

This person affects you. Or do they? Is it instead your own thoughts and feelings that are affecting you? I don't know.

Luego

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #125 on: January 27, 2005, 10:59:23 AM »
T - you used some labels for yourself

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Seeker, thinker, writer, partner, mom, musician, nature-lover, smoker, red wine-drinker, and more.


I would label myself with those words too, except I am definitely not a musician, or indeed, a mom. luego

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #126 on: January 27, 2005, 11:10:14 AM »
Hi All (boy is this ever lively!).

GFN:

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....more globally, using moderation of language to manage/control/avoid internal stress and negative feelings/self-perception.


I think what I'm ainming at with this statement is moderating the language I use when I talk to MYSELF.

This kind of goes hand in hand with the I Voice (listening to my own sub-text and that of others, consciously changing the language to reflect the subtext - and, importantly SPEAKING the revised language to myself), but I also think it goes beyond that, into the behavioral realm -meaning "to set new behavioral/emotional cues" for yourself.

Luego may or may not have a point about exploring the deep past issues. I say this only because my own experience shows me that in certain ways, I am still exhibiting in some of the same behavioral/emotional habits, that, while as functional as I could manage as a child, promote a certain ineffectiveness/diminishment in dealing with present-day trouble.

Your comment that you "have to tolerate it" and are trapped makes me think of my own situation. I actually got some pretty good advice recently about maintaining a "head-to-head" status in conflict. This is hard for me on numerous levels, but it essentially boils down to the fact that I have become so habituated to "keeping the peace" by reading the signals of others that I unintentionally keep myself in the weakened position - trapped, in essence, by my diligence in maintaining a narrowly defined control (thus the C- in lab). This robs me of my own voice to express my anger and to take action about it, because somewhere in the programming of my childhood I learned to be very still and quiet while I waited for the threat to go away ("until it ends"), in your words.

My arguments and rebuttals and even my reactions are largely logic and reasoning-based, giving me little room for my own REAL, UGLY - but JUSTIFIED -feelings, but I have had a few good (of course, the word good should be taken as "qualified") experiences where I was able to get better results by forcing myself to be direct.

I know what it is to be harmed through your child, to have your reputation and social standing destroyed. I agree that it is true that a certain acceptance is called for, also. You may not be able to change a thing. Even though my husband and I have reconciled, nothing is as it was before and will not be again. However, new stuff has come along and gradually the holes are gettting filled.

What was most helpful for me when we were (I thought permanently) separated was to stop saying to myself "My Life as I Knew It is Gone/Destroyed". That was a true statement, but it did not serve me to keep saying it that way. Instead, I taught myself to say: "I am out of an unfulfilling, hurtful life and am Starting a New Life." I even threw in a thoroughly juvenile but exceedingly satisfying (in my thoughts to myself) "And you don't get to be part of it, Nah-Nah.

It sounds really simplistic, I know, but it worked over a fairly short period of time, once I decided to make myself re-state that every time I thought the destroyed/gone thoughts (and trapped and helpless).

As reagrds my husband's use of my child to harm me , I just stood up and said: "You can choose to play games with me through our daughter, if you wish. You know it's bad parenting, I know it, everybody with half a brain knows it - but you can choose that if you like. However, I don't choose to play those games, I will not respond to them other than to remind you that you are choosing to hurt your child,  and I will not repair your damaged relationship with her for you. I will provide her with any comfort she needs, but I'm not making any excuses for you or covering up your game-playing, even to her. Period."

I had to repeat this speech many times, but it did have a certain effectiveness after awhile. Of course, he did not (until much later) come running to me to announce that he was changing his ways, but I could see it. I did not comment (I will not praise people who are actively hurting me).

As for the reputation-smear campaign stuff, that was harder. There was really nothing I could say to HIM to make that stop. I just picked up the pieces, tried to make new friends as I was ready, even tried dating after abiout six months (as an exercise ONLY - I knew very well I was not ready for a new relationship). What I did with language, though, was stop thinking the destructive words he was using or thinking what others thought of me now that he had said those things. Instead of thinking "I am not all those things he's saying", I redirected to say to myself: "I AM x, I AM Y. Because my life has changed, I now have an opportunity to show this more and better than before." That wasn't easy, but over time the reflex thought became more geared toward the latter.

Although I was fairly succesful in dealing with  my husband' acting out during that time (crazy as he was and I felt), I am backsliding a bit lately because those childhood habits (still and small) remain. I am beginning to see how this actually encourages any Narcissistic tendencies in my husband. We're both acting out, I think, our childhoods this way. If I go still and small, he sometimes is non-chalantly dismissive (making be shrink a bit more, of course), then later rages at me, saying all the things that as a child he could not say to his mother, who let her small stillness starve him emotionally and physically. I think when he is dismissive of me in my small state, he is unconsciously recreating his experience with mom so he can express himself. He acknowledges this to some degree. He recognizes the fear he feels when I become small. Now we're down to recognizing the start of the recreation.

Conversely, his raging makes me most often go still and smaller (in adult terms this means to refrain from comment, to communicate not with strong powerful words, but through questions, body language - things that aren't affirmative) even more, getting smaller and smaller until I go black hole non-functional (just like dear old mom). Then on the other side of that is the super-nova of my rage that I never could adequately express, either, which  also ain't pretty. In a sense, I am setting this up too, replaying my situation by failing to recognize in that emotional state that he is not my mother, he is an equal adult and I can find better ways to behave than still/small. Basically, I don't have to WAIT for him to step up and meet my needs, I can demand that of him frankly.

The big difference is that I actually rage against myself first, at least in covert terms, while he rages aginst others first, in overt terms, when we start ot slip up and go back to those childhood states.

Horrible as all that sounds, that isn't the sum-total uf us. We both work at having a certain awareness, and we go through very sucessful periods. But we do both slide back periodically. Hopefully, we will never slide back to where we visited a few years ago.

The talk of voice and language moderation is dear to me, in the sense that I need as strong reminders as anyone about these things, because I sometimes forget to speak correctly about myself and my feelings.

Many times, the correct terms are counter-intuitive and require me to just suck it up and do it with diligence, even if it feels wrong or scary somehow. The consequence of NOT moderating my language is much worse - for me and my favorite narcisisst both.

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #127 on: January 27, 2005, 11:32:55 AM »
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I would label myself with those words too, except I am definitely not a musician, or indeed, a mom. luego



Kinda thinkin' dude might be a hint on that one, although it could easily indicate surf-punk tendencies (thus a secret guitar with an anarchy sticker on it).

Both of those jobs are key to my happiness. The other stuff brings me some satisfaction, but these two are pure joy.

T

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #128 on: January 27, 2005, 12:17:07 PM »
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Kinda thinkin' dude might be a hint on that one

No hint intended...

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although it could easily indicate surf-punk tendencies

I have a copy of Wreckless Eric 'Go Girl Crazy'...

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(thus a secret guitar with an anarchy sticker on it).

Sounds good, but no - luego

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #129 on: January 27, 2005, 12:24:05 PM »
not Wreckless Eric, The Dictators did 'Go Girl Crazy', ironic surf-punk, un poco off topic? apologies - luego

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #130 on: January 27, 2005, 12:40:23 PM »
luego see new thread to continue...

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #131 on: January 27, 2005, 02:03:39 PM »
KAZ:

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T, I'm having a bit of trouble trying to work out your reasoning.

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Quote:
my posts have been clearly in support of abdication of labels for the sake of the labeler


I definitely believe that a certian amount of that helps in immediate terms.

In the long haul, though, it does not matter "what" a person who has/is harmed you can be called.

Hanging on to a label after you've determined the meaning and application of the related information (N, Abuser, etc) can stunt you in several ways (or so I think).

In one way, as I've talked about before, I think when we use those terms as part of the identity of the other person, we are unconsciously applying the opposite terms to ourselves (N=Power, Anger, Victim=Weak, Powerless).

In another, that I've also talked about before, I think we can automatically dismiss even the useful and/or truthful things said by such persons bacuse we grow attached to the notion that the Labeled Other is one-dimensional, and can offer nothing but pain and hurt ("Nothing an "N" says is ever truthful or meaningful so I won't listen"). In that case, we can miss out on some really good information about ourselves because we have so narrowly defined the source.

On the flip side of that, we are potentially making ourselves one-dimensional also, becoming unduly suspicious, looking for N symptoms everywhere in a effort to protect ourselves from further harm ("I am the Victim of an N, so I must constantly be on the lookout for more N behavior"). This puts us at risk for defining everyone  that says/does something that hurts our feelings, or even with which we disagree, as Ns - and thus we are only Victims. There is an actual example of that on this thread , where a poster accused me of being a narcissist because this thread was popular and s/he didn't like the nature of my ideas about these things. Clearly, this person was distraught about Ns to the point where if anything was slightly disagreeable, N was the reason.

Fortunately, others were able to see that and went to bat for me (thanks!).

In another way, which I haven't articulated before now, we can also diminish our right and need to fight back, beacuse it is presumptive in N Theory that They Can't Be Stopped (I give up), and on the more insidious side, They are Too Damaged to Take Responsibility, So There's No Point in Trying. My personal experience shows both things to be untrue.

What you do about that depends on two things: How much Affirmative Voice you are capable of using - and how much it's worth it to you to try.

If you want to make tolerable or repair a damaged relationship, then you have to learn to speak and act very affirmatively - "head to head" - and not back down or peace-make when you see the narcissistic behavior coming. I'm still working at that, because it's counter-intuitive to me. when I apply it, however, it works.

If you want to suspend contact, then you have to come up with a consequence for further boundary crossing, state it clearly and unequivocally, then follow through under all circumstances.

I think it becomes hard to navigate either approach if you are thinking in terms of the label with more emphasis than you are thinking in terms of your own needs and preferneces. If you are giving the label preferential status (N Ex instead of EX), then you are giving the person/behavior a kind of "special" status, more powerful and extraordinary than any other a**hole on the block.

I think labeling, once past the point of essential understanding, gets in our way.

Although everyone certainly has a right to label or not label as they personally see fit, I don't advocate it because my own experiecne has helped me understand how it can get in the way.

T

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #132 on: January 27, 2005, 02:24:18 PM »
Quote from: Anonymous
There is an actual example of that on this thread , where a poster accused me of being a narcissist because this thread was popular and s/he didn't like the nature of my ideas about these things. Clearly, this person was distraught about Ns to the point where if anything was slightly disagreeable, N was the reason.


Do you know that this person was distraught about N's to the point where anything slightly disagreeable was considered narcissistic? Do you know that the person felt something was slightly disagreeable? Please clarify. Admittedly I haven't gone back to find this post.


bunny

Anonymous

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #133 on: January 27, 2005, 02:35:18 PM »
check back - it was a direct attack and accusation, worded very clearly. GFN came to my defense. Ask again if it doesn't look over the top to you.

guest 2

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Narcissism Part II
« Reply #134 on: January 27, 2005, 03:20:52 PM »
Luego & T,
Your words have really helped me, and seem to be aligned with my own thinking.  One of my issues in contemplating leaving my own situation is that I may be aborting my own growth process.  I keep coming back to the question "what am I meant to learn here?"  I am not a victim, but instead a strong, capable, powerful woman.  Many of the patterns in my familial relationships are clearly reflected in my situation with my spouse.

Can you recommend any books that are aligned with your philosophies?