Narcissism Part II

[Anonymous]

GFN, if this person is upsetting your children, can’t you stop your children seeing this person?

If this person is telling lies about you, then you can tell people, including your children, the truth.

You say the consequences could be severe, of this person influencing your children? And yet you have said you’re not afraid of them yourself. Who would the consequences affect? Severe to me means blackmail, physical injury, criminal acts etc. If your children are in danger, you need to act, don’t you?

Perhaps but the person has no spine and will never face me. The person is a sneak and a liar and has no guts. I made a big mistake in confronting this person, awhile back, and that sent them off the deep end. I'm not the least bit afraid to speak my thoughts and feelings clearly to this person but this person will not face me. It is much easier (and possibly) more satisfying for them to try to destroy me by other means.

However, it sounds as though you are in the position of power here. It sounds as though they are lying about you. I don’t understand why this person has any influence at all? Where is their power? How could they try to ‘destroy’ you?

You don’t want to have communication with them – and you don’t have any.
You don’t want them in your life – and they’re not in your life, but they are talking to your children…

The other is upset and says he/she "can't stand it" when this "abuser" person "says bad things about" me, seems to avoid contact with my "abuser" (as much as possible), voices a desire to remain out of the conflict and states he/she feels "stuck in the middle".

If this child can avoid contact, presumably this is not an ex-husband/partner with access rights to that child. This is someone else who is probably related to you, as you know their past history, not a parent, so I would guess a sibling or cousin. If so, I would say again, can’t you stop this person seeing your children, particularly the child who is upset by any contact? luego

[Anonymous]

Luego:

 Advocacy takes many forms.  You can be involved in organizations that help individuals escape from their circumstances to  have a better life. Advocacy may take the form of self-sacrifice of your own personal comfort zone and finances.  The ultimate goal is to provide the best possible life you can for your children.    

I think there are many kinds of abuse, sins of omission and those of commission. If you fail to act, knowing that you can,  it is an act of commission.  If on the other had you are ignorant that the circumstances are harmful and the outcome for your children negligent, it is one of omission.  In either case, the outcomes for your children are negative, with negative results.

Failing to act on my child's behalf would have relegated him to a life of sitting in a backwater town, with no resources, and a limited kind of life and maybe even life expectancy.  To confront those things, I had to push through my own desires, my own confront zone to get those things.  

The Pay Off:  A better life for myself, a better life for my son.  To have done otherwise would have been foolhardy and irresponsible.  It came with pain, it came with work, but the desire and the knowledge  overcame those considerations.   Patz

.

[Anonymous]

GFN:

Thanks once again for "getting behind me". You make me feel good and appreciated. You are a kind person whose viewpoints are inclusive, objective and rational, and whose observations and criticisms are reasoned and compassionate. I'll bet you're a great Mom.

I'm so sorry that your situation is in some ways beyond practical suggestions. I've seen enough of your responses to understand that from where you are, that destructive power of your ex is real. Not knowing the partuculars makes it impossible for me to offer more, but I respect your silence on the matter.

I do hope that the tables turn for you someday.

KAZ:

Thanks a lot. Understanding the mechanics of NPD and everything else under the personlaity disorder/mental illeness sun is helpful - I won't dispute that. More so, I think, is self-knowledge, at least in the long haul, and I don't think that knowledge of PDs is absolutely necessary to acquire that.

I had a very interesting experience when I did my dating exercise, which was before I learned about NPD. Seems I caught on to some things in absentia of that knowledge, because my separation had given me some tiwe to think about how I ended up where I was what thinking patterns I was using to guide me to a destructive place. It was a relatively short dating experiecne, but highly instructive.

I met a man, a lawyer. We hit it off initially quite well, because he was brainy and conversant in many areas (forget Brad Pitt, this makes me sit up and take notice above all other things), liberal in his politics & philosophies, and reasonably attractive (doesn't hurt), and, at first, seemingly quite confident and centerd.

I saw him for a total of 10 weeks - every other weekend (when hubby had visitation) and perhaps once for dinner every other week (about 25 times, altogether, more or less). I was frank about my situation, stating that not only was I not really ready to discuss a serious realtionship, but that my daughter was not ready and would not be for some time. I never introduced them, as I felt it was wrong to bring her into a situation that would only add to her confusion (she was 6/7 - had a birthday - at the time).

At first, things seemd okay. We had a great time, he treated me like a princess (always had flowers for me, always had wine although he did not drink, never let me pay for dinner, took me to wonderful places, arranged to do fun things that I enjoyed, conversed extensively, etc.) But then I noticed a few little trends that made me get more observant and less dismissive of potential problems.

For one, he was a "First In Class" graduate of a very prestigious law school (this was verified and true). A nice thing, certainly, and something to be proud of, but it become apparent after a while that he obsessed on this quite a bit - he rarely missed an opportunity to mention it (at least every other date), although he often described (fairly convincingly, at first) how he felt others were jealous of this. At the same time, his career path was not one that actually jived with that status - he was a minor partner in a one of those ambulance-chasing ppersonal injury firms (you know the ones - think of the most dramatic and pandering TV commercials of the lot).

On our second date, he misused the word "penultimate" to describe his favorit Thai restaurant (this actually means next to last). Now, this is a greatly misunderstood word, and probably 50% of highly educated folks actually misuse it to mean "the best". In fact, I used to use it incorrectly, too, until someone pointed it out to me. I questioned his meaning, assuming he might be using it correclty. He said Best Thai Place, and so I said "I don't think that's what penultimate means. I think it means "next to last". I assumed that he would say what I did when corrected: "Really? That's not what I have understood it to mean. I've have to check that out.". I later thanked that person for the tip - I'm happy if someone helps me learn something.

But no, he actually laughed at me and dismissed me, in a subtle way. I stuck to my guns and said, "no, I feel quite certain of this. Perhaps you might want to check it out".

He said then, "I know I'm right and I'll prove it to you. I'll bet you any amount of money - say 1,000.00 - and I'll win." I replied by saying "I'll take your bet, but I won't take advantage of you. Plus, on principle, I never bet more than I can afford to lose. How about 5.00?". At this point, I'm just amused, thinking he's kidding, right? No - he insists that we make it a big bet. I don't bite, however, and am still thinking this is a big joke.

Later we did look it up in "The Oxford English Dictionary - the BEST dictionary in the WORLD (according to him, no other dictionary will do)". The look on his face as he read it was one of horror and anger. He them grimly and abruptly got his wallet, fished out 5.00, and very grudgingly gave it to me, without making eye contact. I said, "Thanks." and then, it was immediately over and his mood went back to all the "good stuff", so I kind of dismissed my own experience and questioned what I had just seen. I had a lot of trouble with the idea that an adult, particularly one so seemingly accomplished and smart, could behave that way. I assumed the problem was me.

As time went by, it also became apparent to me that he was trying to "make me over in his own image". He had a sort of fascination with my "street smarts" and lack of formal education, and at one point made overture to formally teaching me himself - asking me to read, highlight (!!!), and "be prepared to discuss" a xeroxed copy of a Camile Paglia essay.  

At first, I questioned my own perception of this, too. I'm used to feeling less-than, and also anxious to learn,  because of my lack of formal training and education, so I tried, at first, to "go along" with it. I felt, in some unspoken-to-self way, that this was only natural, given his high-level academic standard. But  even as I "went along" with it, I found that HE wasn't ready to have a serious dicusssion about the material - what he wanted was for me to ask him what everything meant. The whole exercise quickly fell apart and vanished as soon as it became apparent that I had a mind of my own about her work - that I agreed some places, disagreed others, added to still others. Just as I was really beginning to enjoy it, he stopped cold and became disinterested.

Over time, I found that he also tried to make himself my equal in my own semi-professional and professional disciplines (music,  photo-work, grahphics) - not by producing work in those areas, but by showing me basic snapshots of his travels that were framed and hanging on his walls and saying, "I'm an artist, too". He notes that he has a great singing voice (true - lovely warm baritone), which then becomes "I am a musician, too."

By this point, I'm learning not to question myself, a little at a time. I gently say "Those are great photos. Art, to me, is about conceptualization, technique and commuication all married together". His reply is to ask me if I've ever been to Florence to study the Great Masters. Of course, I haven't, although I have viewed some of those works in books, visited my local museums and galleries, etc. He tells me that if I have not done so, that I cannot be an artist. I didn't say this, but I wondered how come nobody told Ansel Adams or Grandma Moses about this - surely they would have given it up, had he just explained their limits to them.

These are just a few anecdotes that I enjoy telling because they're so over the top, but there ended up being a lot of little signals in between.

Ultimately, I realized that not only was this guy not all he seemed to be, but that I was squishing my own self (I Voice) because he seemed to be so accomplished and knowledgable.

Even after I bailed, he showed all the signs of NPD (clinging, pleading, cajoling, bribing, blaming) - for almost another 1.5 years. I was still getting messages and e-mails once in a while long after my husband and I reconciled. Even that fact did not deter him for a long while. Eventually he gave, but mostly because I finally replied to an e-mail after a long silence, indicating in "police language" that he must stop all communication immediately. He's lawwyer, so he got what I was saying and quit.

The point in all this, aside from the fact that I enjoy the stories sometimes from a head-shaking and eye-rolling point of view, is that I did not have to know anything about NPD, or it's mechanics, to avoid this one. Simply being in a position to look at him with the eyes of someone who is not ready, not feeling that needy in-love stuff, and not especially vulnerable to whirlwind romance was enough. That combined with my determination to never be devalued that way again.

While I would like to think that it was all because I was so great and rocked his little world so hard, the truth is that
it was all about him, not me. Even though he went out of his way to be generous, accomodating, affectionate and all that - it was really more about positioning himself as the powerful half of a relationship, and his idea that he could eventually make me into an ideal partner who reflected well on him. He looked at me not as another person, but as a good-quality lump of clay. I had all the right attributes, if only he could arrange them to suit his fantasy. The real me meant little more than a threat.

I will grant that having learned about the disorder - and especially the contiinuum parts - have really helped me understand it academically. But it really was just about truly hearing myself, in the end. It was my own voice and experiences, and not the (potential) disorder that REALLY instructed me. I think if I had been in what I formerly thought of as a "healthy" place between relationships, I might have fallen for it.

That would have been truly hellish.

[Anonymous]

Patz - that's a great story. To me, it highlights Jayne's reluctance to trust herself, value herself, and to demand consideration and respect for her needs - even to question that her own needs are as legitimate and important as Jim's.

I think Jayne might be squashed by even the most well-meaning person of confidence, almost as easily. If she doesn't learn to speak affirmatively, she may go on, after Jim, to a kinder, more compassionate person, but that will not change her experience much.

I agree with Luego that the most important element in this story is Jayne's behavior, not Jim's.

T

[bunny as guest]

Re: dates with insecure, wierd attorney.

He showed red flags almost instantly about what a fragile, insecure, temperamental, controlling person he was. I'm surprised you stuck around as long as you did, and tried to "discuss" things with him.  I don't know whether or not he has a personality disorder but he was obviously a screwed-up individual. I think he kept pursuing you because you didn't dump him after one or two dates. I imagine he had a very difficult time getting women to stick around, and if he found a "live one" he would cling to her with every bit of energy he had.

bunny

[Anonymous]

P.S. I would not, on a date, tell someone they misused a word. It's kind of shaming. I'd tell them after I knew them better and we had some foundation of trust. OTOH, you saw the ugly side of this guy immediately by so doing. So it was helpful.

P.P.S. I also misuse the word penultimate and now I won't anymore. Danke.

bunny

[Anonymous]

My theory is the better I know myself, the harder I try to give out "I'm not prey" signals, the more I do to keep myself from being mentally and emotionally vunerable, the better. I think it's me that attracts the type and it's me that has to change to decrease the changes of repeating that. I also think, some of it is just chance.

Let's face it, sometimes hunters are just good hunters and sometimes prey is just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Can we really protect ourselves from those who behave like this by constantly scanning others for signs, behaviours and traits?

I think this is the right track, but I've decided that it's me that is attracted to that type. Otherwise, I would not end up there. I'm trying to think of myself not as the passive attractor, but at least as equally the active attractee.

It sort of sucks to say that, paints not such a smart picture of me, but as I consider it that way, I realize that the "healthy" narcissistic qualities, which I lack in many ways, are attractive to me and I do look for them.

By these qualities I mean confidence, social ease, ambition not screwed over by fear, an ability to like one's self despite flaws, etc.

However, because my intimate familiarity with those qualities in "healthy" form, either from within or from role-models, is lacking and/or half-formed, I cannot as easily tell the difference on the superficial level. My distorted view of myself (Jayne, perhaps) leads me to have distorted views of others.

I'm trying to learn to protect myself not by scanning others, but really scanning me in my responses to to others.

If something feels really great, I try to ask me WHY...and to require myself to pinpoint exactly what feels good. If something feels bad, I ask the same.

Sometimes, I am surprised by my answers, especially efter giving it a second and even third thought, in an effort to not let myself get away with superficialities and personal maxims.

This has been really a interesting approach, and helps me get to know myself better.

T

[Anonymous]

This is really a thought-provoking thread.

Hi Luego:  

GFN, if this person is upsetting your children, can’t you stop your children seeing this person?

No I cannot.

If this person is telling lies about you, then you can tell people, including your children, the truth

.

How would you suggest I do that with the child that does wish not talk about it?

I could spend an eternity running around trying to correct the stuff that's being said.  This would be rather draining, I think.  Do you really think it is possible to reverse a smear campaign?  I don't.  I think it's a waste of energy.   I do my best to correct mis-information with those who bother to ask and with my children, when it is appropriate and when they are comfortable talking about stuff, which with the one, as I've said, that isn't very often at all.

If your children are in danger, you need to act, don’t you?

The danger is emotional damage to the child who is pulling away, who is being convinced of untrue information, who will not have the relationship with me that would have been, had this person not been interested in harming our relationship.   The danger is emotional damage to the other child, who feels torn, who just wants to be a kid and stay out of adult stuff, but who is being used as a pawn.  The danger is emotional damage to me, watching it happen and not being able to stop it, possibly losing the relationship with one child, trying to comfort the other, and as time goes by, seeing the emotional damage caused.  Severe, would be the loss of the relationship with the one child, another who grows up confused and feeling used and may act out.  You may not believe that I cannot stop this person but I am telling you the truth.   You may think there must be some recourse I could take but there isn't.  I cannot stop this person.

However, it sounds as though you are in the position of power here.

I have power over my own life, you are right.  I suspect that this person thinks that if they can manage to allienate my children against me, it will destroy me.  But........I have already made up my mind that if that happens, I will not perish.  It will hurt, that's for sure.  I will never stop trying to communicate with my children and I will never give up hope that some day they will see what's real.  So, yes, I have a lot of power.  I have the power to decide that and work at making the best of it all.

Patz:  I think you asked, when do we take responsibility for abuse?

To me that means, when do we take responsibility for allowing the abuse to go on? (and for our behaviour during the abuse)?

My answer is that if we have any ability to intervene, we must do so as soon as we recognize the abuse.  If we don't have the ability to stop the abuse, we must do our best to counter the effects.  The trick is recognizing it to begin with and being able to act.  Did Jayne recognize the abuse?  Was she aware of being used?  Did she realize she was allowing herself to be used?

There are some circumstances that exist where one is indeed trapped.  If you are a woman in a physically abusive relationship with a person you believe is capable of murder, then you, and only you, can decide to risk your life by trying to escape.  People get killed trying to do that, sometimes and so....maybe some decide to remain there because it is the better of two demons?   I cannot find it within my heart to condemn such a person.  I have not stood in their shoes.  I have not needed their courage.  I have not been terrorized into stagnation.
Thank God.

Patz, I admire your courage to act as you did for your children and your decision to do without, in order to make their lives better.  You are a fantastic mom!   If I could do that for my children and fix this, I would.  

Hey T:  

Even though he went out of his way to be generous, accomodating, affectionate and all that - it was really more about positioning himself as the powerful half of a relationship, and his idea that he could eventually make me into an ideal partner who reflected well on him. He looked at me not as another person, but as a good-quality lump of clay. I had all the right attributes, if only he could arrange them to suit his fantasy. The real me meant little more than a threat.

I bet it was this realization that helped you decide to quit seeing this fellow?

...my determination to never be devalued that way again.

Wasn't this Jayne's real trouble?  Her needs were less valuable in her mind than his?  I think it's good to try to give and be generous to others, to be unselfish and put our needs asside, sometimes, to help someone in need.    But there is a fine line between gererosity and being a door mat, or at least, a line that needs to be defined clearly in our own minds and we have to find ways to recognize the line.

You are a kind person whose viewpoints are inclusive, objective and rational, and whose observations and criticisms are reasoned and compassionate. I'll bet you're a great Mom....I'm so sorry that your situation is in some ways beyond practical suggestions...

Thankyou, T, for such kind words, which I'm sure I only live up to some of the time.  I'm human and flawed and I can be weak.  

I confidently believe in two things:

Good eventually overpowers evil.

And

What goes around....comes around.

GFN

[Anonymous]

Hey T: Quote:
Even though he went out of his way to be generous, accomodating, affectionate and all that - it was really more about positioning himself as the powerful half of a relationship, and his idea that he could eventually make me into an ideal partner who reflected well on him. He looked at me not as another person, but as a good-quality lump of clay. I had all the right attributes, if only he could arrange them to suit his fantasy. The real me meant little more than a threat.  


I bet it was this realization that helped you decide to quit seeing this fellow?

Yes and no. Believe it or not, this fella didn't hurt me in the least - in large part because my mindset was so different thatn it might have been were I not in a place of self-examination. If I had just been on the usual looking for love quest of the ordinary single, I really might have missed it before it was too late. But I wasn't.

I enjoyed the ride in many ways, tough as he could be about some things. He was all the good parts, too - and that is the majority of what was visible unitl some weeks had passed. His wierdnesses unfolded a little at time, in an isolated incident her and there.

I hung in there for those weeks for several reasons - one, is that you can't really make too many judgements based on a couple of encounters, and I should probably point out that the "breaking it off" part took a good 2.5-3 weeks.

I think one critical thing is that I've always been more about long-term commitments and never really about dating (I've had three long-term relationships since adolesence - 4 years, five years, and going on 14 with my husband). - so this unconscious idea that I could see someone for a little while, making neither a snap judgement or a quick commitment but rather feeling it out gradually was kind of new for me.

The largest issue stated and felt by me at the time of break-up was really simple incompatibility - his style did not really mesh with mine, our objectives were different, and I just couldn't stand the controlling behavior. I was able to bust him on that stuff, and receive a pledge to change, but I really didn't believe him - I knew better by then. 40-something men (& women) don't usually change unless they experience something earth-shaking.

Overall, I did like him very much, and would have been thrilled if we could have remained friends. He could not handle that, though, so I had tyo tell him that we couldn't be friends. He wouldn't walk away on his own.

One should probably consider that I was 26 when I met my husband - and 36 when I met this fella, so there was not only my basic state of affairs influencing my thinking, but also just relative maturity and experience.

I think it was the first time in all of those realtionships where I entered the door thinking about my own needs. It did make a big difference.

T

[Anonymous]

I hung in there for those weeks for several reasons - one, is that you can't really make too many judgements based on a couple of encounters, and I should probably point out that the "breaking it off" part took a good 2.5-3 weeks.

Yes one can make judgments about a person right away. They usually throw up red flags at the first encounter. This guy's floral tributes, etc., were one red flag, as you'd told him you weren't ready for a relationship. He was still coming on way too strong.

Overall, I did like him very much, and would have been thrilled if we could have remained friends. He could not handle that, though, so I had tyo tell him that we couldn't be friends. He wouldn't walk away on his own.

From your description, I'm wondering how you'd be thrilled to have this individual as a friend. He sounds like someone to stay far away from.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Hey T: Quote:
Even though he went out of his way to be generous, accomodating, affectionate and all that - it was really more about positioning himself as the powerful half of a relationship, and his idea that he could eventually make me into an ideal partner who reflected well on him. He looked at me not as another person, but as a good-quality lump of clay. I had all the right attributes, if only he could arrange them to suit his fantasy. The real me meant little more than a threat.  


I bet it was this realization that helped you decide to quit seeing this fellow?

Yes and no. Believe it or not, this fella didn't hurt me in the least - in large part because my mindset was so different thatn it might have been were I not in a place of self-examination. If I had just been on the usual looking for love quest of the ordinary single, I really might have missed it before it was too late. But I wasn't.

I enjoyed the ride in many ways, tough as he could be about some things. He was all the good parts, too - and that is the majority of what was visible unitl some weeks had passed. His wierdnesses unfolded a little at time, in an isolated incident here and there.

I hung in there for those weeks for several reasons - one, is that you can't really make too many judgements based on a couple of encounters, and I should probably point out that the "breaking it off" part took a good 2.5-3 weeks.

I think one critical thing is that I've always been more about long-term commitments and never really about dating (I've had three long-term relationships since adolesence - 4 years, five years, and going on 14 with my husband). - so this unconscious idea that I could see someone for a little while, making neither a snap judgement or a quick commitment but rather feeling it out gradually, with no commitment clock ticking in the background, was kind of new for me.

The largest issue stated and felt by me at the time of break-up was really simple incompatibility - his style did not really mesh with mine, our objectives were different, and I just couldn't stand the controlling behavior. I was able to bust him on that stuff, and receive a pledge to change, but I really didn't believe him - I knew better by then. 40-something men (& women) don't usually change unless they experience something earth-shaking.

Overall, I did like him very much, and would have been thrilled if we could have remained friends. In some ways, I had more just plain fun with this guy than you can shake a stick at - and I have some really fond memories of him. That part was great! He could not handle that, though, so I had to tell him that we couldn't be friends, eventually - breaking up with him in another way after a few more weeks. He wouldn't walk away on his own.

One should probably consider that I was 26 when I met my husband - and 36 when I met this fella, so there was not only my basic state of affairs influencing my thinking, but also just relative maturity and experience.

I think it was the first time in all of those realtionships where I entered the door thinking about my own needs, more so than about being in love or being loved or finding true happiness. It was more like "Okay. So do I like? What don't I like?".  It did make a big difference.

I suppose if I was scanning for NPD signs, I wouldn't have had all the fun parts and the opportunity to get to know myself through this experience.

And no, bunny - he wasn't all that desperate - he had had plenty of dates a marriage and a three year shack up under his belt when I met him. So he wasn't completely inept with women, he was just unsuccessful. I think I was so attractive to him because of his erroneous idea that he could shape me to be a better version of his PhD women - one educated by him, rather than by the university - one as comfortable on the shooting range as in the Halls of Justice. What he did not get was that the qualities he really aprreciated in me -independence, curiousity, adventurousness (and maybe a couple of other things, too) - would have vanished under such tutelage.

Believe it or not, I'm not an ugly, desperate girl myself - falling for anyone who gives me special treatment. I've had special treatment before from desperate and non-desperate men alike, so that by itself, while charming, was not really influential.

In the end, my husband knows me best. He might bring flowers, but he also bring screwdrivers - because he knows what I like and doesn't think he has to tell me what I like. Whatever else I can say about the rest of his stuff - that's a good thing and I'm grateful for it.

He actually does appreciate me for me, unless he's in one of his "Adventures on the Continuum".  Then, for a time, he does not recognize me.

T

[Anonymous]

oops...sorry about the double post.

bunny, I'm beginning to think you're just kind of contrary and don't really want to like anyone who isn't perfect.

I could see the fun and good parts of this guy because I was THERE. Even in my "lengthy and abundant" posts I can't spell out every single detail for you. You should let your imagination kind of fill in the blanks on some things, and maybe assume that there were some mighty good parts balancing it out, as is true.

It's just an illustration and a funny story and does not have to be deconstructed as a pathological event - it wasn't. It was an experience that many HEALTHY people have. I dated someone for a few weeks. I liked some things, I did not like some things. I broke it off when what I did not like outweighed what I did like. And -  I learned from it.

Are you trying to make me feel bad? Like I'm doing everything all wrong? Like I'm some kind of Moron because I don't think getting flowers, all by itself, is a sign of pathology? I don't think I am. I'm not perfect, but I'm making good progress. How about you?

I would probably feel better if I heard once in a while from you: "Funny Story", or "Good Job, you learned something!", or "Hey, interesting way to look at it", or "Yes - listening to one's instincts is important - I find that XX and YY healp me hear myself better", or "gosh - that's a bitter, hard experience - I feel your pain"

Throughout this post, I've heard nothing of you and your experiences, and how they have shaped your thinnking, for better or worse.

How about you share what you missed or what you saw in one of your relationships, or how you've worked on yourself?

Or are you right when you say you are only "interested", and don''t actually feel concern for any of these issues or the people affected by them?

T

[Anonymous]

Patz, thank you for your posts which I keep thinking about. I am sad right now, but sad in a way I know, so it's okay. I will be back to post some other time, but I wanted to say thank you Patz. Whether you intended for your posts to resonate with me or not, they have. I wonder whether you intended it? My heart is sad but it gets stronger. luego

[bunny]

T,

I'm just commenting on your ideas. I cannot give you the phrases you want to hear, I'm not hardwired that way. I haven't heard anything funny yet, or pathological. I did read some things that pushed my buttons, and sometimes I felt like protecting others who might be afraid to disagree, and some feeling of intellectual competitiveness, like "this person can match my steel." I understand that you think I'm calling you a moron and expect perfection from you. I'm not. If I thought you were a moron, I wouldn't have responded to anything you wrote. It takes quite a sharp mind to stimulate my mind and you are sharp-minded. If I thought people had to be perfect, I would be somewhere else, not on this group. I don't agree with everything you've said. You don't agree with me either. No biggie. And I have talked about myself. I don't think you noticed. And maybe not as much as you'd like, but I have to be that way. I have a husband who wouldn't want me to talk about him. I've had bad experiences in the past posting about my problems with other family members so I mainly share that only through private messages. Sorry but I have to protect myself in that way. If there's something specific you'd like to know about me, a PM is the best way.

In general, I was seriously emotionally f****ed up from childhood until I was in my 30s. I had a lot of borderline behaviors and tendencies. I was a mess but managed to function at work, pay rent, etc. My way of acting out was to get into minor car accidents. I had a therapist whom I loathed so much that I finally broke my foot in her office so I'd have an excuse to leave her. I didn't even know that I was allowed to leave a therapist. She was very angry and tried to get me to return but I didn't. A lot of other stuff...no contact with family for about six years....mother disowned me for marrying a non-Jew...marriage was poor decision anyway...divorce...yada yada...reconciliation with mother...more therapy...second marriage...couples therapy...N-inlaws (yes, N) finally deteriorated and died. Right now my main concerns are some small children in the family but they are the ones I can't talk about.

At some point I went to night school and got a masters in "counseling psychology" but didn't pursue that as a career. I wanted desperately to know how therapists did their job because I was so intimidated by them and yet I wanted to obtain some therapy. This started my intense interest in psychoanalysis, specifically object relations. I'm not in psychoanalysis and never have been, but I am in therapy, permanently, as far as I'm concerned. And I have probs with the therapist (negative transference) but I think he's okay. We're discussing my negative feelings about him, how disappointed I am in him.

My big revelation (like your I-voice, possibly) was learning about other people's internal worlds. I thought everyone had the same reactions to things. I thought everyone was extremely angry. I thought everyone was a closed book who would keep me out. Now people are an open book and I get what is going on. This was important to me, as I had so many mistaken ideas that I'd overreact to things all the time. Plus I took in everyone's projections like a sponge and reacted to them.

I am very very concerned about small children and adults whose child-parts are very powerful in their lives, so they can't protect themselves like an adult would. For others I am mainly interested and maybe not so much concerned about them. They seem to be doing okay.


bunny

[Anonymous]

Luego:

My heart is sad but it gets stronger.

I'm sorry to hear that you are sad and I hope you feel better soon.

GFN