Author Topic: Anything  (Read 493304 times)

2cents

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« Reply #375 on: June 14, 2005, 06:05:42 AM »
Hey GFN,

Thanks as always for your reply, and for your kindness. It 's helped me shed some more tears - just a few, but real ones.

The people around me did just carry on with their lives or so it seemed, and it's a hard thing to comprehend. Even harder was to deal with the 'condolences' from people whom I hardly knew. I see now that they may have meant it for real, but at the time it seemed confusing and false. What was even harder was that the people who grieved my mother so deeply pretty much disappeared into thin air. No one offered to help. Give guidance. When people would come to visit us at our house they'd avert their eyes from the mess and pretend it wasn't there, and then leave. No one offered to help a 14 year old girl who was practically looking after her father and kid brother on her own!

Growing up I learned to identify myself with 'failing' to keep things together and make things 'normal'. But of course, things weren't normal, and it wasn't my fault.

The 'things' I couldn't enjoy were relationships with people. Approval from others. Connecting with others. On the other hand, if I look closely I think made a lot of bad choices where that's concerned. The 'world' has reached a stable point for me now and I'm trying to put things into perspective, trying to look inside and deal with whatever comes up. I've only just begun to REALLY try this, but it seems I'm getting somewhere.

One thing that I've learned about loss: sometimes we hold on to the pain as a way of staying connected to the loved one. I've done this consciously in my life, and then - consciously - chosen to let go and to move on. In the case of my mother I think I have UNCONSCIOUSLY held on to the pain, so it's much harder to reach, also cause her death was so sudden, and her loss was so profound. But I will let it go.

Feeling unreal definitely has a link to repressing feelings. Just like I don't know how to express anger I don't know how to express pain, so I carry it inside me and 'keep going'. Problem is, for a long time I wasn't 'going' anywhere - just running. Slowing down now thankfully.

Thanks again for listening,

((()))

2cents

Anonymous

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« Reply #376 on: June 14, 2005, 09:52:38 AM »
Dear 2cents:

As long as I am here, I will listen and I'm sure others will too and try to give you questions/ideas/or just a shoulder to cry on, if that's what you need.  You are welcome here, so keep posting.

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it wasn't my fault.


You got it!!  Good for you.  It wasn't your fault.  It wasn't your fault.  It wasn't your fault.  Good point to remember and remind yourself!  So true!

You are good and all of this happened through no fault of yours!  None!

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It 's helped me shed some more tears - just a few, but real ones.


This is probably a good thing too, especially if you have been feeling apathetic/numb.  Sorry to say "glad to hear it" but it is a release, so I'm glad for that.  Sorry for your pain though, 2cents. :(

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I think made a lot of bad choices...


Guess what?  You're not the only one who's ever done that!  Guess what else?  You're not doing that now!  Good for you again!!

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trying to look inside and deal with whatever comes up. I've only just begun to REALLY try this, but it seems I'm getting somewhere.


Great again!  This is something that can be scarey and painful, in itself, but seems necessary, in order to purge the pain.  A good cleaning out, it might be called?  Good for you for being brave and determined!  You will survive and feel better, soon!!

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In the case of my mother I think I have UNCONSCIOUSLY held on to the pain, so it's much harder to reach, also cause her death was so sudden, and her loss was so profound. But I will let it go.


I think this is very true.  As you let go of the pain, please hold onto your mother, your relationship with her, your memories.  Write to her, talk to her, visualize her, remember her and keep those precious moments as her gifts to you.  If I were her, I don't think I would want you to be suffering.  I would want you to be celebrating those memories.  As hard as it is to not wish for more, peace can be gathered from those that you've already had with her.   This may sound a bit silly but who cares?  You were a child.  Your mom died.  You have a right to hold onto the good stuff and to make it something that propells you forward, rather than drags you down!

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Slowing down now thankfully.


Good for you 2cents.  What's the one feeling you have failed to describe, the feeling that I suspect is underneath all the other feelings you've spoken of so far??   The main feeling causing the pain?

Thanks for the hug 2cents.  It felt good!

GFN

Brigid

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« Reply #377 on: June 14, 2005, 10:05:03 AM »
2 cents,

I'm so sorry for the experiences you have had to endure thus far.  It seems like way to much for an adolecent to deal with.  I think you never really were able to grieve the loss of your mother since you were just trying survive and keep your family afloat.  Its very sad that your father could not be the parent and help you get through it rather than the other way around.

I don't mean to diminish your pain one bit, but I sometimes look at people who are grieving the loss of a parent and feeling such pain and wish I could have felt some of that pain and sense of loss when my parents died.  I wish I could have had some memories to hold dear and long to have back.  Instead, I felt nothing.  There was no grief, no longing, no sadness.  Just guilt for not feeling any of those things.  

Maybe you can get to the point where you can look back fondly at the time you did have with her and the love she felt for you.  I have faith that you will.  Then the next phase of your life can begin and new relationships can enter your full and complete life.

((((((((2 cents))))))))

Fondly,

Brigid

2cents

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« Reply #378 on: June 14, 2005, 05:09:42 PM »
Hi GFN,

I think the main feeling causing the pain is, strangely enough perhaps, shame. I know there's fear there too, but I feel very ashamed of being who I am. Like I'm not complete, and normal, and I just want to explain it all away. I've felt this way since I was a child - maybe cause my brothers left? It's the first thing that comes out of my mouth when I meet people: an 'explanation' of why I'm so 'wierd', and why my life is such a mess. I blame myself for everything that ever goes wrong. Because of course it's my fault. :?

(((((((GFN))))))


Brigid,

Lovely to hear from you as always. Haven't been able to keep up here as much as I'd like, but I really hope you're doing okay. The thing is, I don't have that many memories of my mother at all, good or bad. She was a strong woman, and she kept us all together, but I can't reach her. Sometimes I'm jealous of people who have their mothers, whatever their relationships with them, because at least they have the person there in the flesh to react to, and at least they know how they feel about them if that makes any sense. My mother is an absence. Sometimes I dream of her, and then I feel a sense of connectedness again. I feel guilt too for not feeling many of the things I 'should' have felt. :? If you don't mind my asking, how old were you when your mother died?

(((((((((((Brigid))))))))))))))))

Brigid

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« Reply #379 on: June 14, 2005, 06:55:40 PM »
2 cents,
My mother just died in early January (I will be 55 in July).  She had been slowly deteriorating with Alzheimer's for about the last 4-5 years.  My father died about 5 1/2 years ago.  It was only after his death that it became clear that she was having some memory issues and she was diagnosed about 6 months after his death.

By the time he died, I had so much anger toward both of them that it was very difficult for me to have sympathy for her illness or want to be a presence in her life.  Whenever I would call, all I heard about was how wonderful my brother was and how helpful he was, etc., etc.  The fact that he lived near her (I was 350 miles away), had no wife or children or any other responsibilities other than his job, seemed to completely allude her.  She eventually changed her will leaving him 80% of her estate and me 20% and no provision for my children who were her only grandchildren.  

When I discuss my childhood with my T, I'm never quite sure who hurt me more, my mother or father.  Fortunately I had a grandmother who I was very close to and lived nearby most of my childhood.  She was the only adult in my life who ever made me feel special and loved.  I grieved alot when she passed away, but she also lived to be 98 so I knew she had lived a good, long life.

I'm so sorry that you can't remember your mother except occasionally in dreams.  Maybe the memories are buried under the grief you could never express and with healing they will become apparent.  As I have said to you before, you are so wise and insightful for someone so young (you could be my daughter and I would love to have another one  :) ).  I know you are going to get through this.  I'm so glad you are sharing your stories with us now.  I hope it is helping.

Hugs,

Brigid

butterfly guesting

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« Reply #380 on: June 14, 2005, 10:04:13 PM »
GFN wrote:
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What I think is that they are littered with wisdom and are written with love and much optimism. They are wonderful and wrought with beauty.

Really??  You see those things in my words? :roll: Thanks for seeing something in me that I don't normally see in myself.  Hearing them from you means a lot to me. :)   You're okay in my book. :wink:

Personally, I think you have the of gift of encouragement.  And you do it so beautifully!  Not to mention the other wonderful things about you...to list them all would make me win the trophy of the longest post ever.  I wouldn't want to take that trophy away from you :lol:

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I just want to hug you!!

Ditto!!! :D

2Cents wrote:
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I think the main feeling causing the pain is, strangely enough perhaps, shame.

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Because of course it's my fault.

You have every right to enjoy the goodness and beauty the world has to offer you.  Shame is one of those things that just sucks the life and spirit out of us, doesn't it?  I know what that's like.  I sense that you direct anger towards yourself, not others.  Why not direct that anger towards those who have hurted you, wronged you, took advantage of your kindness?  Why wouldn't you direct that anger towards them instead?  You didn't do anything wrong.  You didn't cause your mom's death, or your brothers and fathers actions, or the situation you found yourself in?  Those things were beyond your control.  So how can anything be your fault?  You didn't allow them to happen.  I'm so sorry if I sound insensitive in anyway.  I really don't mean to.

IMO, anger directed internally is crippling.  Anger directed externally can be empowering.  I hear a lot of anger you direct toward yourself.  Could this be the reason you feel constant shame.  Can you make this change for you, 2Cents?  I believe you have it in you.  Even if you don't feel it.  You can know it is there in you.  Perhaps, it just needs a lot of nurturing and TLC (tender, loving, care)

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I'm waiting for the day something just feels right again, just because it is.

But, this is the day you can start feeling right again.  I don't think tomorrow will ever come.  IMO, the door of opportunity will not open for you unless you take hold of it today.  Sometimes, we just have to kick that door open and claim it for ourselves.  Otherwise, someone else will take what is meant for us.  This is your day, 2Cents.  You can make it happen for you.  I think one of the key factor is learning how to redirect your anger in order to dwart shame.  Easy to say, but hard to do.  I'm still learning.

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Thanks for listening  

Thanks for sharing!!!

Brigid wrote:
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When I discuss my childhood with my T, I'm never quite sure who hurt me more, my mother or father. Fortunately I had a grandmother who I was very close to and lived nearby most of my childhood. She was the only adult in my life who ever made me feel special and loved.


Brigid, I'm very sorry for the pain you had to endure. :(   But, I'm glad you had someone who made you feel special and loved. :)

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I know you are going to get through this. I'm so glad you are sharing your stories with us now. I hope it is helping.

DITTO!!! :)

Butterfly

2cents

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« Reply #381 on: June 15, 2005, 04:09:16 AM »
Hi guys,

It is helping me big time! Each post i get a little deeper, and let a little more out...

Brigid,

I'm sorry that your mother treated you the way she did. And her death is still so recent too. I really hope you are okay. My parents both hurt me by making so many huge decisions without considering my feelings, or those of my brothers. I haven't been able to really talk to my father since I was 6 years old. I 'know' he loves me, and I love him too, but to call what we have a relationship is stretching it a bit thin to say the least.  :?

Butterfly,

I hear ya. I really do. I was taught that it was wrong to be angry with an adult, and it crushed my insides because sometimes adults do things that hurt. Then I learned that I couldn't rely on adults (my parents) so I tried to parent myself, and then became angry at my own 'parent'. But you're right - I've got to learn to express the anger to those who wronged me in order to let it go, instead of keeping it all inside. And tomorrow never does come does it? All we have is today.

Thank you thank you thank you,

((((((())))))))

2cents

Anonymous

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« Reply #382 on: June 15, 2005, 09:46:07 AM »
Dear All:

Butterfly:   :oops:  :oops:  :oops: Thankyou.  Too much.

Brigid:  (((((((((((Brigid))))))))))  I'm so sorry your parents treated you so badly and for the pain that caused.  You, on the other hand, are obviously not at all like them and have managed to come out beautifully, in spite of them!!

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She eventually changed her will leaving him 80% of her estate and me 20% and no provision for my children who were her only grandchildren.


I'm so sorry that she even tried to knock you down from her grave!!
Let your brother have 80% of her N money!   Sounds like he has got what he wanted?  That's sad eh? :(

You, on the other hand, have so much more,..... people who love you, and a spirit that won't quit ......and your 20% will probably be enjoyed by more than just you, I bet, and seem like much more.

Praise to the loving, kind Grammas of this world!!!  They are God's gift to children!!

2cents:

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I think the main feeling causing the pain is, strangely enough perhaps, shame. I know there's fear there too, but I feel very ashamed of being who I am. Like I'm not complete, and normal,


I think what I hear you saying is that your mother died (which wasn't happening to other people....so there must be something wrong with you), and your brothers left and you thought it was your fault and so you feel ashamed......a great shame for something you don't know what that is.....why they left......what you did to cause it??
This would be frustrating and make me feel angry too, I think.

It might be true that you have directed your anger toward yourself because it was too difficult or whatever, to explain or to direct it at those who hurt you.  Then, you end up so angry with  yourself that you feel ashamed.   Maybe the fear is a fear of letting the anger out?

I hear you also saying that you don't know how to let that anger out but I'm going to guess that it's not a matter of how but of afraid to???

Ofcourse, once that is done, once that great pile of anger is released, the shame will probably disappear, I bet.

But 2cents........underneath it all, isn't there sadness?
Are you in touch, way down inside, with the terrible despair and sadness that little girl (you) might have experienced??  The horrible grief?  The deep, deep hurt of losing her mommy? :(  :(  :(  :(  :( Of losing her brothers?  Of a dad that wasn't as dad?

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It is helping me big time! Each post i get a little deeper, and let a little more out...


Great!  Keep posting then!  This is the "anything" thread and you can post about anything you want to.  Are you writing those letters?

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I've got to learn to express the anger to those who wronged me in order to let it go, instead of keeping it all inside.


You got it!  You can write....to begin...if it feels less scarey.  Then, maybe talk to a cushion, in a chair, pretending it's the person.....maybe yell...maybe cry???  Even........draw your version (doesn't have to be a Picasso) on paper, of those you want to communicate with,  and rip them to shreds, maybe hug them, maybe?

I had a good one one day.  I yanked out 2 wheel barrel fulls of switch grass.  That stuff should be called N grass!!  It's slithery roots creep every where, just under the surface of the ground, or way down deep, depending on what kind of hold they can manage to get!  The grass looks like thin, harmless, rather graceful stuff until you try to get rid of it, at which point it takes hold like a viper.  You finally get one root coming out, only to find it snaking it's way around all kinds of other plants and you yank and yank and rip up so much soil......and finally.......break a piece off.  But there's lot's more to pull and it seems never ending and it comes back to haunt your garden when you least expect it.

Anyway.......for every yank....tug....pull......I imagined my abuser/s and/or some event that I felt angry about.  As I worked away I would say:  "There goes blank!!  Good riddence!!", when I pulled out a good chunk of the stuff.   I even cursed ( :oops:  :oops: ) some (no one could hear me) and just let a whole wack of it out, at the switch grass, the N grass, at my abuser/s, at events that were giving me anger.  I felt it coming out!  And in the end, where I used to complain and really dispise that switch grass.....I was grateful and I said out loud:  "Thanks God, for switch grass.  I never dreamed I'd say that!"

For me, gardening is very therapeutic.  For you 2cents, you will need to find something that is therapeautic for you, be it some chore, some sport or some creative activity.   I could search the net and give you plenty of ideas on safe, acceptable ways to release anger.

Truly.......I think you might consider doing that for you???  It would be good for you to read it and pick things that you think might work for you.  It might help you ignor your fear of releasing it,  by seeing the information and picking stuff that feels safe and not so scarey for you?

What do you think 2cents?  Does that sound like an idea that might help?
You could even share what you find with the rest of us, if you want to.  I'm sure we would all be very grateful!

I agree with Brigid and you, 2cents about today being the day!
I heard another good one:

"You can spend your money, gamble it away and work hard, maybe get it back later but once you waste your time, it's gone forever."

From the really silly movie:  "Up the creek".

Enjoy today all!

GFN

butterfly guesting

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« Reply #383 on: June 15, 2005, 08:26:54 PM »
2cents wrote:
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I was taught that it was wrong to be angry with an adult, and it crushed my insides because sometimes adults do things that hurt.

Yeah.  Adults can be hurtful with their words to children, esp. if they think their ways or ideas are always the right way.  It seems like what they taught you was intentionally self-serving to them.  Then again, maybe b/c they were taught that when they were kids themselves.  So the cycle of wrong info was continued by them.

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And tomorrow never does come does it?

I agree with you a 110%.  The concept of tomorrow is an illusion, isn't it?

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Butterfly:    Thankyou. Too much.

I'm sorry, GFN.  Didn't mean to embarrass you. :( Did I go overboard?  But, I meant what I said, though.

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For you 2cents, you will need to find something that is therapeautic for you, be it some chore, some sport or some creative activity.

I think this is a great suggestion.  For me, my form of therapeutic outlet was through keeping a daily journal.  That is where I express all my anger, pain, frustrations, happiness, crazy and not so crazy ideas, etc.  I find that through writing I get my tangled thoughts sorted out.  For me, sometimes, workable ideas are generated through the mere act of writing.  2cents, I hope you will find something that works for you.  Perhaps, the whole idea behind it is to find a medium to translate the intangible into the tangible.  

2cents, I'm going to take the liberty to be straightforward and kinda bold with you.  I hope my words don't come across as negative or anything like that.

I feel that the shame you have is taking away the needed energy from you to focus on moving forward.  It is crippling you.  It will continue to cripple you if nothing is done about it.  But, I believe you can learn to dismantle it one piece at a time.  Yes, the events in your past has knocked you down so hard that they left you partially crippled, psychologically, making it that much harder for you to walk firmly.  But walk you must.  Otherwise, you will not get to where you want to go with your life.  Figuratively speaking, where do you want to go, 2cents?  At some point in your life, you got to say to your crutches, "I don't need you anymore."  Put them to the side.  Let go of them.   And start walking on your own two feet.  Sure, taking each step without something to lean on is very scary and painful.  It will require all of your energy and commitment and passion.  But, surely, each step you take will make you a little stronger.

I think crutches are useful when they are used as a temporary aide.  But when they are depended upon for too long, they can actually work against us.

Have you ever seen a cripple person in rehabilitation working up the nerves to walk again?  It is so painful to see them take those little baby steps without having anything to lean on.  But it is so amazing to see them progress with every effort.  I know for that person, every painful step they had to endure was all worth it.

As bazaar as it may sound, I believe, shame can be used as a crutch.  How so?  Because it keeps you crippled.  It keeps you weak.   Sure, it may feel safer to lean on it than to confront it and disassociate with it.  But, you are bigger than your shame.  Confront it.  Show it who is boss.  Never let it be bigger than you. Never let it overpower you.  Wrestle with it, if you must.

Live boldly, 2cents.  Can you afford to live any other way?  You already know how living another way has robbed you of so much happiness.  It kinda left you feeling broke, didn't it?  The good news is, you can reclaim it, today.  You can start making deposits into your life's account.  How about starting off little, and see how your investment will grow for you.  You will be amazed.

I'm cheering you on.  Because I know you have it in you to get to where you want to go in your life.  Yes, I agree, it's important to embrace pain, and to give it voice.  But, don't lean on it for too long, less it becomes a crutch.

P.S.  I hope I don't come across as an imposter.  I guess what I'm writing is merely a reflection of my own thoughts and what has helped me.  In a real sense, we are phantom strangers.  And I don't know if what I said made any sense to you or is useful at all. But, all I know is what it is like to experience deep emotional pain.  

Thinking of you and praying for you.

Butterfly

2cents

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« Reply #384 on: June 15, 2005, 09:00:42 PM »
Hi all,

GFN,

You're right. I'm not in touch with my sadness. I'm seeing a therapist again (since yesterday) but I remember when I first went into therapy for depression my t told me that there is a function parents (and especially mothers) perform for their children called 'holding'. A mother 'holds' the world in place as it were for her child, and as the child grows s/he learns to become independent because s/he has a notion of the world as a safe place. Of ocurse their are dangers in the world, but the child learns that there is also a place of safety. What I was doing was 'holding' the world for myself until it was 'safe' (i.e. I reached adulthood) to let go. Only problem is, once I reached adulthood I was too scared to let go even though - in survival terms - I had 'made it'. :?

I gotta go through the pain to let it go, right? The switch grass equation? (Maybe you wanna copyright that one - great story! :D )

Butterfly,

You said it. I do actually know someone who is learning to walk again from being in a wheelchair, and although I don't know him very well his attitude and his progress are amazing. What you said in your last post about shame as a crutch and not leaning on it is a huge encouragement. And you know something? What you said about today being the day is true. I'm gonna remind myself of that everyday, long and often. Thanks again,


((((((all)))))))

longtire

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« Reply #385 on: June 16, 2005, 10:35:07 AM »
Quote from: 2cents
A mother 'holds' the world in place as it were for her child, and as the child grows s/he learns to become independent because s/he has a notion of the world as a safe place. Of ocurse their are dangers in the world, but the child learns that there is also a place of safety. What I was doing was 'holding' the world for myself until it was 'safe' (i.e. I reached adulthood) to let go. Only problem is, once I reached adulthood I was too scared to let go even though - in survival terms - I had 'made it'. :?


2cents, I had parents who did not do this "holding" for me growing up.  They didn't know how, even for themselves.  It has taken a lot of work and faith to step out of holding onto the idea that there was something wrong with me.  That has been very stable for many years, but has obvious downsides. :( Sometimes I worry that others will see my tagline and think that I am N. :) When I worry about that I just remind myself of all the tiny steps over all the years that I had to take to get to this point.  I still fight the idea every day that the world is a scary, dangerous place.  There are dangers, but there is a lot more good stuff out in the world and the only way to get it is to live without shame and fear.
longtire

- The only thing that was ever really wrong with me was that I used to think there was something wrong with *me*.  :)

2cents

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« Reply #386 on: June 16, 2005, 12:30:13 PM »
Hey Longtire,

Nice to hear from you!

I've kept up to date with your progress and you're definitely taking giant strides!

Something Bunny said on another thread got me thinking - about just exactly what 'transference' might mean... I'm thinking I've just never really felt safe enough to transfer  my fear onto another person - REALLY transfer it - and then TRUST that person to be there while I go through the process. Scary thought, but I'm really proud I'm even remotely able to approach it on a cognitive level now. In the past I just never got it.

(((((longtire))))))

2cents

Butterfly guesting

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« Reply #387 on: June 17, 2005, 12:02:30 AM »
Hello y'all :)

2cents,

I'm really glad that I was able to be an encouragement to you.  Actually, your feedback was very uplifting to me today.  As a matter of fact, it was the only uplifting words I've received all day.  Thanks so much!  After the doctor told me on the phone this morning that my mother is not able to have her pancreatic cancer operated on, my heart became very heavy.  Without surgery, her survival is very short.  Having to tell her of this news will be so difficult.  But, I'm really glad that she will have all her kids by her side to cushion the blow somewhat.  Anyway, I just want to say thanks again for your kind words.  It sounds like you are doing better.  That's encouraging. :D

Take care,
Butterfly

October

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« Reply #388 on: June 17, 2005, 05:47:36 AM »
Quote from: Butterfly guesting
Hello y'all :)

After the doctor told me on the phone this morning that my mother is not able to have her pancreatic cancer operated on, my heart became very heavy.  Without surgery, her survival is very short.  Having to tell her of this news will be so difficult.  But, I'm really glad that she will have all her kids by her side to cushion the blow somewhat.  
Butterfly


I am very sorry about your mother.   :(   I am glad you can all be there for her to help her, and one another.

Butterfly

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« Reply #389 on: June 17, 2005, 10:12:32 AM »
October,

Thank you!  Today will be the day to break the news to her.  I hear of death all the time.  But, not until it hits home does it  become real and raw.  I've never had to face the prospect of death of someone close to me til now.  Before the reality of my mother's grave condition had set in, I honestly didn't know how I will feel toward losing her.  Now, the hardest and most agonizing part is having to see her suffer.  I just pray that her suffering will be short.  

Thank you again for your sympathy, October.  It means alot to me.

Butterfly