Author Topic: Need to post this  (Read 5912 times)

Dawning

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« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2005, 09:02:14 AM »
oops!  me above.   :oops:  :roll:
"No one's life is worth more than any other...no sister is less than any brother...."

bunny

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« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2005, 10:08:46 AM »
Dawning,

It looks like projection. Your mother is telling you that she wants you to be worried about her. And I think it may have worked.

Why is a neighborhood friend getting involved. Is it this person's business?

An hour with your mother sounds like the maximum that could be tolerated. I don't see any reason to visit a person who would hide your car keys and lock all the doors. That disqualifies her from receiving visitors.

Bottom line, if I visited her it would be for an hour, I wouldn't dream of staying overnight, and if she started screaming, the visit would end immediately even if it had only lasted one minute. It's the only way she'll learn what you'll tolerate. There have to be some concrete consequences. She doesn't listen to verbals.

bunny

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« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2005, 10:20:42 AM »
Hi Dawning
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Basically, I want to be there for her. Like OnlyMe, I am an only child of my mother and feel that she is alone and I want to help her

I agree with Bunny.
Okay, you might want to *think* about what you mean by wanting to be there for her.

Is this duty, obligation, guilt at play? Do you really want this? Will it make you happy?....do you expect to talk with her maybe? (could be useful)

I'm an only child too. Not my choice, not my problem. If my mother's alone, her problem. I could be alone too, does she worry? Does she actually help me? Nope.

I get worried about mine - her health, her safety, her sanity.  But I don't act on that worry. Because the worry is my problem, I choose to worry. If she really needs my help - she'll ask. If she doesn't ask, heck, that's not my problem either. Sounds tough, but that's how communication works (and doesn't work). Real respect, love, knowing, understanding doesn't require all this cr*p - we just help each other because we genuinely want to, no strings attached.

So....how do you feel about this wanting to help? She may not want you there you know. She may want to 'worry about you' (project, whatever) from a distance. If you're there up close, it might blow her circuits. People are weird and our mothers are really weird. What you're proposing is 'normal' people stuff: but our families don't fit into that category. Maybe we'd like them to, maybe it would be great to do something normal and have it appreciated!  :D But,...... :?  take care as always, Steph/Portia

Dawning

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« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2005, 01:57:52 AM »
First, thanks to you both - Portia and bunny - for helping me through this.  You've been amazing sources of help for me and I admire the strength and courage you both have and your willingness to share and help and listen.

In my last email, I forgot to mention that, after that phone call, she sent me an email saying that she was not only worried about *me* but also worried about *her* and that I would do the same thing if I was a mother (I saw that as rationalization of her weird behaviour.)  Then, she said to email her.  I haven't.

Today, I got an email simply saying, "well, I guess I am on your sh*t list again.  xxxoo.  Mom."   :roll:

You both raise some interesting questions.  Thank you.  

bunny wrote:
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Why is a neighborhood friend getting involved. Is it this person's business?


The neighborhood friend is someone I met years ago.  He was also at my grandmother's death bed.  He has known my mother for years but, until recently, did not catch a glimpse of her attack/rage/fury/infantile behaviour.  I consider him a friend of mine and another available source of info.  Since I had heard from other relatives that my mother was writing letters to these relatives (apparently) stating that she was "getting drunk everynight" and another neighbor has told me of her "insatiable love of booze," I inquired to the friend on phone last night about this.  He said that he has been over several times unannounced and she has not been drunk so he doesn't think it is necessarily true.  He suggested I give it a shot; come back, stay and see what happens and if she starts her 6 year old tantrums and manipulative behaviour and verbal attacks to just leave (as I said before.)  

Then, today, I get the email from her.  Typical 6 year old stuff, eh?  She wants to get a rise out of me.  An emotional reaction (which I have given her before when she has been like this as the child eager to please the parent) but now I think this is not a relationship based on respect.  It is a relationship that has to do with *her* and only her.  What is she thinking?  That if she victimizes herself, I will come to her rescue?  And that she will once again have succeeded in taking advantage of me?  It is not even a question as in *am I on your sh*t list?*  It is her assumption craftily worded to attempt to get me to defend myself and my actions.  What hurts is that I deeply don't believe that she has the ability nor the desire to question herself and her behaviour.  So what I really need now, more than anything is a definite plan of action b/c I don't think she is going to change b/c she wants to.

Portia wrote:
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Okay, you might want to *think* about what you mean by wanting to be there for her.


I think I want to make her happy and she has fully taken advantage of this.  I have been conditioned to believe that my happiness can come from making her happy.  But now I think differently.  She cannot expect me to put up with her sh*t just because she is my mother.  But how to communicate this to her?  I think that any reaction she gets from me will satisfy her if only giving her hope that I will dance the dance again with her.  And now I am dancing my own dance.  And I seem to be making good friends, my confidence is growing and I feel so much better about myself than I did a year ago.  I am learning about what I love, how to pursue it and how to make and maintain relationships based on mutual respect.  And it feels so good.  Detaching from her and my father has been hard but its bearing a little fruit.

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do you expect to talk with her maybe? (could be useful)


Actually, I am afraid of talking *with* her b/c, based on previous experience, she takes what I say, twists into something about her and leaves me there with this empty feeling of being used.  Only when she is in total control of me does she seem to lighten up and not feel threatened.  That is no way for me to live.  

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I could be alone too, does she worry? Does she actually help me? Nope.


My mother seems to love to see me go through a crisis.  Then, she can step in with all the answers.  But they usually have to do with her needs; like she is not really listening to what I am saying.  So, when I go through a crisis now, I turn to this board or my retreat-studies and I examine the ways I've been conditioned and how I've been programmed and I examine it.  And all this pulls me further and further away from her and her snide little manipulative infantile emails like the one I received today.  :twisted:  How I wish she wasn't like that for she does have the capacity to be a warm human being.  But talk about Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde!!  When she feels threatened or afraid, watch out!  And that was surely scary for me as a little girl.   :cry:   And I am standing up for myself now.  I wonder sometimes if I am doing it the right way.  Maybe I should be more patient with her, more loving, more understanding of her NPD, more compassionate.  But she seems to really, really enjoy pushing my buttons or attempting to anyway.

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I get worried about mine - her health, her safety, her sanity. But I don't act on that worry. Because the worry is my problem, I choose to worry. If she really needs my help - she'll ask. If she doesn't ask, heck, that's not my problem either. Sounds tough, but that's how communication works (and doesn't work). Real respect, love, knowing, understanding doesn't require all this cr*p - we just help each other because we genuinely want to, no strings attached.


That is very true and very well-said. I guess I feel I am at a cross-roads; that I naively (stubbornly?) believe she will *get it* and then I will have succeeded in saving her from her NPD and we can have a normal relationship.  Or - the other way - accept her for who she is, forget about ever having true adult-communication and take her with a grain of salt - concentrating more fully on the relationships I have with people that are sane and honest.  And working on becoming the person I want to be.

Loving this kind of crap I am getting from her is not what I want to do or feel compelled to do.  So I am just ignoring her as, bunny wisely pointed out, she doesn't listen to verbals.  But it is hard b/c I love her and I have convinced myself that I am all she has got.  She's got no friends, no husband, all relatives have shunned her....but then, on some days, I think she is tough as old bones and what is she trying to engage me in with that little email of hers today?  That email was not based on respect of any kind or it seems so to me.

Maybe it is me who still somehow wants a mommy that will never be.

So I think that I want to control her to some extent...still.  I want to make her into a nice mommy that doesn't hit me or scream at me or devalue me or expect me to take on the role of the crazy person so she doesn't have to and I want her to respect me and listen to me and see me as not her reflection in the mirror.  Oh, if this were possible! I have put alot of effort into making it possible   I am starting to think it is not.

I can't help of thinking of Death of a Salesman.  If, by pulling away from my mother to be happy and lead a sane, honest life, she kills herself??.....that is my fear.  My fear is that she will kill herself to make her point...that I was only put on this planet to please her and, if I can't do that, then she will make me pay for it by having to feel guilty the rest of my life for not making her happy.  But the truth is (all melodramatics aside) she is a troubled, unhappy woman and, if she takes her own life, it is not a reflection on me.  I have tried all my life to make that woman happy.  I have offered my love to her and have had it rejected in cruel ways.  And, now the really scary part, is that I am starting to make good friends and starting to get an inkling of what I am capable of without being in her shadow.  Getting that email from her today basically felt like a punch.  And she didn't mention anything at all about my grandmother, her cremation, her ashes or anything a long those lines.   I mean, for all she knows, I could be in the hospital for some reason and not be able to email but I guess that thought never occurred to her.   :evil:   Gawd forbid!  As I said before, I need a plan of action b/c she is not only getting on my nerves but she is acting ridiculous.  One thing I can do is protect the little girl inside of me who wants her mother's unconditional love and, instead, give it to myself and others worthy of it.  Thanks for listening to me ramble.

Love,
Dawning.
"No one's life is worth more than any other...no sister is less than any brother...."

Portia

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« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2005, 08:46:22 AM »
Big sighs Dawning. Can I work with you?

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So I think that I want to control her to some extent...still. I want to make her into a nice mommy that doesn't hit me or scream at me or devalue me or expect me to take on the role of the crazy person so she doesn't have to and I want her to respect me and listen to me and see me as not her reflection in the mirror.

Yep, I still want her to change. I want her to stop the game. Stop the game of manipulating my attention and relate to me as a human being. At least, that’s the game I perceive. She offers me communication and insights into her, but then doesn’t fulfil the promises. She wants me to ask and ask for it, to make her feel in control? Wanted? Or – does she simply not care, becomes disinterested in what she promises me, and forgets? Do I disappear until the next time she finds that her ‘friends’ are all on holiday? I do find that when she is busy with others, I don’t figure at all. I could easily be dead. So maybe I fool myself in thinking there is a game. Maybe there isn’t. Maybe it’s as simple as a parasite needing a host – any host??

She’s pathetic, unhappy, screwed up as I see it. But does she see it like that? Is she capable of seeing it like that? The narcissistic state seems to be one of utter shame and fear, but that this fear and shame are always kept at bay by being superior to others etc. The only way the fear is fully felt is when all the defences don’t work – so as long as they get supply, they’re okay I guess. But what about us? Are we simply hosts to the parasite? I don’t know. And if not us, it’s someone else, someone who maybe won’t hurt as much as we do as ‘hosts’, so maybe our job is to protect and grow ourselves until just maybe we’re strong enough to be compassionate without guilt or obligation or any negative feelings? I don’t know, I’m asking. If so, that’s a long way off for me, I’m not that free of anger and I’m not that self-confident.

One of our problems it seems is that we have compassion mixed with our understandable need to be loved. Our mothers it seems lack that compassion but do have this insatiable need – insatiable because we can’t be their mothers holding them as babies and supplying that unconditional love. It can’t happen!  

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If, by pulling away from my mother to be happy and lead a sane, honest life, she kills herself??.....that is my fear. My fear is that she will kill herself to make her point...that I was only put on this planet to please her and, if I can't do that, then she will make me pay for it by having to feel guilty the rest of my life for not making her happy.


Yes I know. I have felt like this and still do, to a point. But the evidence is that people who are so out of touch with themselves in this way, don’t suicide. She’ll probably go on forever. Maybe mine will outlive me, I consider it possible! She’s the mother, I am/you are the daughter. They’re supposed, in some order in my mind, to want us to live, to carry the genes forward. They’re supposed, in some gut-instinct survival way, to protect us, not want to crush us or subsume us. If life were perfect, they wouldn’t burden us like they do. If you had a daughter wouldn’t you want her to be the happiest, most fulfilled she could be? I think not having our own children is a loss, simply because we don’t experience the protectiveness and love for them, that we didn’t have from our mothers. I think that makes a huge difference to some women (and men) – seeing their children with love and realising what is missing in their own parents. Some parents are willing to die so that their children live! Imagine that eh.

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I have tried all my life to make that woman happy. I have offered my love to her and have had it rejected in cruel ways.

And it’s not your/our job Dawning! It’s not our job to do this!! This is topsy-turvy life.

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And, now the really scary part, is that I am starting to make good friends and starting to get an inkling of what I am capable of without being in her shadow. Getting that email from her today basically felt like a punch.

It is scary, I find personal freedom scary. And I get regretful too, at what I’ve missed (been capable of). And yes, I felt that punch too. It’s akin to “I know when I’m not wanted” i.e. you don’t love me child!!! Pile on the guilt and kill me with it I guess. Motherhood martyrdom stinks. :evil:  

If she’s acting ridiculous, let her, it’s her life. Maybe you don’t need a plan of action re: her?? Can you let go? She’s not your responsibility, whatever society or convention may dictate. And by getting you to think that you can influence her (help her, comfort her) she’s letting you think you have that power. When in fact, she’s exercising power of control over you by appearing weak and out of control. Now that could take me from sad to angry in milliseconds!  :roll:

Thanks for getting me thinking D. Listening to you really does help….P

bunny

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« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2005, 04:06:26 PM »
Quote from: Dawning
Today, I got an email simply saying, "well, I guess I am on your sh*t list again.  xxxoo.  Mom."   :roll:


Manipulation, she is also acting like a teenager.

 
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He said that he has been over several times unannounced and she has not been drunk so he doesn't think it is necessarily true.  He suggested I give it a shot; come back, stay and see what happens and if she starts her 6 year old tantrums and manipulative behaviour and verbal attacks to just leave (as I said before.)


Give a shot to visiting her because she isn't drinking? I'm a little mixed up here.
 
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That if she victimizes herself, I will come to her rescue?  And that she will once again have succeeded in taking advantage of me?  It is not even a question as in *am I on your sh*t list?*  It is her assumption craftily worded to attempt to get me to defend myself and my actions.  What hurts is that I deeply don't believe that she has the ability nor the desire to question herself and her behaviour.  So what I really need now, more than anything is a definite plan of action b/c I don't think she is going to change b/c she wants to.


I agree with the plan of action idea.


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I think I want to make her happy and she has fully taken advantage of this.  I have been conditioned to believe that my happiness can come from making her happy.  But now I think differently.  She cannot expect me to put up with her sh*t just because she is my mother.  But how to communicate this to her?


Through action. Words aren't going to cut it. She doesn't listen. You've taken one major action, i.e., moving to the other side of the globe. I think that sent a message. If you communicate through email, I would only send short emails that are extremely simple and firm.


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I wonder sometimes if I am doing it the right way.  Maybe I should be more patient with her, more loving, more understanding of her NPD, more compassionate.  But she seems to really, really enjoy pushing my buttons or attempting to anyway.


If anything, I would be very firm. She needs boundaries because she doesn't have any. If she's faced with some boundaries she may revise some of her worst behaviors. But she has to see the consequences of not respecting the boundaries, and she has to know that your boundaries are being enforced.


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She's got no friends, no husband, all relatives have shunned her....but then, on some days, I think she is tough as old bones and what is she trying to engage me in with that little email of hers today?  That email was not based on respect of any kind or it seems so to me.


She is probably pretty tough as she hasn't caved in to the pressure of having no friends or relatives. I suppose she's finding supplies though.



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Maybe it is me who still somehow wants a mommy that will never be.


Why wouldn't you. It's what everyone wants...

I don't think your mother will commit suicide but she may create some drama (like telling everyone she is drinking) to get your attention and divert you.

bunny