Help me understand

[longtire]

Longtire,

You are amazing! You have put it all so plainly clear.  !!snip!!

GFN, I think that was mudpuppy you were replying to in the last post, not me.  This is my first post to this thread, though I have been reading along.  Darn,  you say the nicest things, too!  

[Anonymous]

     
OOOOPs!    

Well....now....would I like to try the other foot?

Sorry Mudpuppy!

Sorry Longtire!

Although.....I just read your post, Longtire, under your long, long story, re your recent realizations in regard to your failed marriage and how it feels good to put those down on the screen and face some of the failures and choose to believe good things about the future and.......yes....I think you are also amazing and have put it down very plainly and clearly too.

And It was Mudpuppy I was referring to, originally, sorry for the mixup.

GFN

[Anonymous]

GFN,
Praying for someone IS extreme generosity. I believe it is one of, if not the most important things we can do for others because God can effect change in them far more than we can. The problem is God will not change them unless they allow him to. That darned old free will thing that we seem to have such a hard time with.

If your abuser shows up at your door and sincerely says "I'm sorry, what can I do to make up for the damage I've done, help me change" then you can love him face to face and help him in any way you feel led to.
If your abuser shows up at your door and sincerely says "Let the games begin" then you love him by slamming the door in his face, locking it and starting to pray all over again. And perhaps calling your local sheriff.
Love in the sense I am talking about and which Christ meant when he said "there is no greater love than this, that a man lay down his life for his brother" is sacrifice for the GOOD of another. Allowing abuse is not good for anyone, including the abuser. That's not love, that's a pathology.

You or anyone else can frame anything I write. Its not copyrighted. I really doubt anything I write is worth framing anyway. I know I don't have any of my wisdom hanging on my walls. : )

As for forgiveness, that is a whole nother topic. In fact I was thinking about starting a thread on that very subject. I do know this, forgiving yourself is no more selfish than forgiving others, but I do struggle with it. In fact it is harder for me to forgive myself. So lets all forgive ourselves for being trusting fools who wanted to believe the best about others. And lets resist the cynicism that comes from the betrayal of that trust.

Longtire,
GFN does say the nicest things, huh? I wish I could express myself as well.

Now then the hard part,

By the way.......click the left button on your mouse....drag it across the words you wish to quote......click the right button on your mouse....click copy......place the pointer in the reply box, where you want the quote to appear...right click your mouse and click paste......click the left button on your mouse again and highlight the text by going over it with your pointer again......go to the top of the reply box and click "Quote" and voila!!!

Did it work? Lets see.

Mudpuppy

[Anonymous]

Wow,  it works! Thanks GFN!
I am now a computer genius. If anyone needs any technical assistance they can drop me a line.

Mudpup

[Anonymous]

To patz,
I should have responded to your post earlier. I remember you mentioning your two brothers before. It sounds hard having to observe. But you are making the only sensible choice by not being drawn into it. That is my brother's modus operandi, to gather as many allies against his perceived enemy as he can.
As far as when I started losing my sibling bond with my brother I think it probably started twenty years ago when we first went into business together. Prior to that he was just somebody who was hard to deal with, but who I could get along with if his ego or insecurities weren't threatened.
Within months of being in business with him however I began seeing the signs of manipulation and in fact the business broke up once after only four years. After being ostracized for a year and a half because he layed the blame for the breakup on me(of course it was my fault that he took a year long trip overseas while I stayed home working my tookus off) I made the second biggest mistake of my life. I went back into business with him. Of course the manipulation began again until I just couldn't take it anymore. All this time I was bit by bit losing respect and affection for him until I severed the business relationship at which time he essentially declared a war on me which is when I considered him no longer a brother. I had a fun childhood, so I do have a sense of loss for those good old days, but when I became a man I put away childish things, as the saying goes.
Anyway thank you for reading my little blurb and taking the time to give me your two cents.
Much love to you too,
Mud

[Anonymous]

Hi everyone:

Mud wrote:

GFN,
Praying for someone IS extreme generosity

.

I have to be honest, I have never thought of that.  I have always prayed for those who hurt me, or who seem lost, or otherwise in need of prayers.  To me....the person who is so hurtful to others needs the most prayers of all.  They need help.  I have never considered this generous but just a natural thing to do.

Jesus hung out with the low-life of the times....the sinners....and I guess I've always thought He did that because they needed Him most.  It almost seems like my obligation to pray for those who need it most.

If my abuser showed up at my door sincerely saying:  

I'm sorry, what can I do to make up for the damage I've done, help me change"

[Anonymous]

I'm a real embarassment to this thread!  I have absolutely no idea how that got posted.  I swear I did not press submit.  It must have been some secret code I typed!!  I'm NOT a computer wiz!!

Anyway......as I was saying......if that happend about those sincere statements at my door, I don't think I would be able to be loving or generous or praying or anything else.....

Because I would be passed out on the floor from shock!!!  

Anyhow.....glad you learned how to do the quote thingy.  I tried for ages until I was able to get it.

GFN

[Anonymous]

GFN,

Jesus hung out with the low-life of the times....the sinners....and I guess I've always thought He did that because they needed Him most. It almost seems like my obligation to pray for those who need it most.

The Pharisees asked Jesus' disciples why He ate with the tax collectors and sinners. When he overheard the question he said "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick."
The interesting thing about that verse is, it kind of applies to Ns. Jesus believed we are all sick but he was calling the Pharisees well because in their own eyes they were righteous; just like an N who either doesn't know he is sick or would never admit it.

I'm NOT a computer wiz!!

You're still ahead of me, if that's any comfort.

mudpup

[Anonymous]

mudpuppy,
I don't think you feel any emotions other than anger because I think the next emotion for you to feel is guilt and I think you don't want to go there.  With my parents I knew what they were like, I had a very superficial relationship with them for over a decade.  When I became pregnant they began showing REAL interest in my life and I allowed a close relationship to develop, even though I knew that they were not able to carry it through.  I mean I didn't say to myself I know that they can't carry it through, I had unrealistic hope that they could/would.  So I know that now I have a certain responsibility in the pain that exists now.  I can be as angry at my parents as I want to be, but really I'm most angry at myself.  When I came to that understanding I was able to release a lot of the anger and then just do what I had to do.  And it's true that it is not good for anyone including the abuser to allow abuse to continue.  Once I worked through my anger at myself and my own guilt I was more able to accept their anger and I did not need to place all the guilt on them.  Then I could just experience the sadness of it all and learn the lessons to be learned and find joy in life, even with the here and there continuing BS.
LM

[Anonymous]

Hiya Mudpuppy:

Jesus believed we are all sick...

Yes, the humility thing again.  I think I got this, even as a kid...that we are all capable of doing wrong...that we are human and have some real nasty parts in us....etc.

I think I read once that St. Mathew wrote something to the effect that he felt like he was constantly fighting the devil within himself....always wrestling with temptation...always fighting his own wicked parts.   I really think that's an accurate way of putting it because, for me, I do battle those nasty thoughts...desires....impulses.....reactions......and want to just throttle some people sometimes......but want more....not to...because I know how wrong that is.  I'm sick or have sick parts, that's a given.

Jesus was smart to hang out with the sickest of the sick.  He helped them and they followed Him...giving us all hope.  Knowing this is what has helped me a great deal...having this faith.  I don't know what I would do without it.

I'm NOT a computer wiz!!  

You're still ahead of me, if that's any comfort.

mudpup

I wouldn't bank on it...me being ahead of you, I mean.  How do I post without pressing submit?  And at least you can keep your poster's names straight!

GFN

[delphine]

Hi Mud, I think I understand your  feelings. I have an N mom,N bro, too many NXBFs.. .. guess that makes me either an idiot, expert, or both...
Ns know how to hook and play people's emotions. They have this very pleasing False Self and can promise you the moon. It's very hard to let go of the illusion, the role they played. Romantiic relationships with Ns are the hardest because we've all had that honeymoon period of finding "the one"- hard to hate the actor when we loved the role.
My mom has gone through periods with me of convincing me that she's changed and so I have really opened up to her for decades only to be harshly reminded that its ALL about her ALL the time. Plus, with a parent you have the infant bonding experience.
But my brother was a competitor for attention from day 1. We have the fondness of shared memories but at some level I've always known not to trust him. When he Nars out, there are no surprises. Although he can provoke my anger and occasionally a good moment, I don't have deep feelings for him one way or another. I know what  he suffered as a child, and I know what suffering he inflicts on others but personally I could take him or leave him.
If you are free of the compulsion to change or fix your brother I think that's really healthy. It sounds like you love him in a healthy way, meaning, you know who he is and give him a lot of space in which to be himself; you accept him. You are right that we are not required to like anybody!
Delphine

[Anonymous]

GFN,

I think I read once that St. Mathew wrote something to the effect that he felt like he was constantly fighting the devil within himself....always wrestling with temptation...always fighting his own wicked parts. I really think that's an accurate way of putting it because, for me, I do battle those nasty thoughts...desires....impulses.....reactions......and want to just throttle some people sometimes......but want more....not to...because I know how wrong that is. I'm sick or have sick parts, that's a given.

That was Paul in the book of Romans. He said, loosely: "The good that I want to do I don't, but the evil I don't want to do, that I practice....Oh wretched man that I am." I speak for no one else, but that certainly describes me at times. How much more wretched then is an N who always surrenders to doing evil?

mudpuppy

[Anonymous]

Hi again:

Even though I have an idea of what it means.....I just had to look up this word:

adj. wretched, wretch·ed·er, wretch·ed·est

1. In a deplorable state of distress or misfortune; miserable: "the wretched prisoners huddling in the stinking cages" (George Orwell).

2. Characterized by or attended with misery or woe: a wretched life.

3. Of a poor or mean character; dismal: a wretched building.

4. Contemptible; despicable: wretched treatment of the patients.

5. Of very inferior quality: wretched prose.

from yourdictionary.com

What a picture that paints.  Are people who behave like N's....in a deplorable state of distress or misfortune; miserable; characterized by or attended with misery or woe; of a poor or mean character; dismal; contemptible; dispicable; and of very inferior quality??

GFN

PS:  (I had no idea there were such words as wretcheder or wretchedest. )

[mudpup]

Hello LM, Delphine and GFN,
Sorry I took so long to respond.
LM,

I don't think you feel any emotions other than anger because I think the next emotion for you to feel is guilt and I think you don't want to go there.

Maybe, but I doubt it. I've never been one to take on much guilt, even when its my fault. Seriously, the only guilt I have felt is regret over the day I went back into business with him in 1992. Other than that, he is the jack ass causing all the problems so I've never really understood where the guilt should come from. Maybe if I was smarter or more perceptive I would feel guilty. See, there are blessings to being dumb and oblivious.
Delphine,
Your relationship with your brother sounds very similar to mine, with one exception. I can only accept who he is if he is, like about 10,000 miles away and has no way of contacting me. Then I can accept him just fine.
GFN,
 

Are people who behave like N's....in a deplorable state of distress or misfortune; miserable; characterized by or attended with misery or woe; of a poor or mean character; dismal; contemptible; dispicable; and of very inferior quality??

Uh, is "all of the above" one of my choices?
Thanks all.

mudpuppy