Being a good daughter

[Bliz]

You guys are killing me between your succinct advice and humor. I will have to go over to the most narcisstic comments ever made.  Is there a spell check to this proceedure?  Just asking.  Thought it mightbmake it easier to read my posts.

This board could be a dangerous habit though as I am putting off work to be her.  AHHH, who cares, the Narbro works out every day from Noon-2PM, no matter how busy we are and then comes in all hyped up to yell at us to work more.  We are like the worker bees in "Metropolis".

I did want to try to say something to Greta that may or may not help. My own mother was in an orphanage from the age of 2-13 or so.  SHe was with her sister, although their mother was still alive.  She got them out as pre teens but neither felt a close relationshp to their own mother.  

It was interesting to observe my mother develope over the years. I now believe she was definitely Nar when we were kids.   She did go to therapy and created a life for herself.  Sort of an identity that she never had as a child. She also greatly improved in her ability to love when the grandkids came around.  

I watched her attend to her own mother's ailing needs, which thankfully didnt last long.  I wondered how she could do it since I knew she had little attachment to her.  She said she did it to assuage her own guilt.  I think she did just enough to not feel bad when she finally died 6 years ago at 94.  

It was never enough with her mother. You could do stuff for her all day and she would call you up and yell that you didnt do more.  Sometimes Mom would invite her to family events but often not.  I think she found out her own boundaries.  Even though MOm caves to the men on occasion I have a great respect for how far she has come considering she had no real parenting of her own.  Very sad.  When I think of her being left at an orphanage at two years old, it just breaks my heart.  

Unfortunately many Nars, I assume have had similar injury.  I would assume the same for Mom's Mom as I believe their mother abandoned them also.  My therapist once said I come from a long line of mother's abandoning daughters.  You have to wonder what that is all about.

[Portia]

Hi Greta

My therapist believes that sending her cards on her birthday and a small gift at Christmas, and short chit chatty emails every couple months constitutes being a *good daughter.*

I agree. I assuage my guilt with flowers sent to her home. But I don’t visit. But wait! SHE doesn’t visit ME either (thank goodness). She isn’t a good mother to me. When she’s a good mother, maybe I’ll be a good daughter (hell just froze over at the thought). It’s not one way Greta.

It’s not your sole responsibility to keep this relationship going.

This of course was a radical idea to me! My mother could never get enough of me--no visit was ever long enough(except of course if she had something better to do).

‘better to do’ – ditto here. When you say visit, this was you visiting her? Did she visit you? Did she make an effort?

Does anyone on the board have experience with redefining what it means to be a good daughter(or good son)?

Try being a good person first? And good to yourself first? I’m trying. It’s not easy.

What makes it worse is that she's a minister, so everyone thinks she's a saint, and she's a therapist, which is just plain scary.

Yep, that is scary. I continue to be amazed at who gets to be a therapist. I think I’ll set up as an unlicensed guerrilla therapist. Could I do as much damage as some of these people?

Bunny thanks!

You don't have to be a "good" daughter, but a "good-enough" daughter

me too please

Hey mudpup, 'Rosemary's Baby' ends in a very creepy way, great film (ah the ‘erbs and tanis root) but I’m not going into details with all our expectant mums on the board! Well okay I will: even though her baby is the Devil’s own, she still stays with him to be his loving mother! There’s more mother love in her for the anti-Christ’s child than can be found in many of our ‘homes’.   Hmm.

[Anonymous]

Greta,

This thread got me feeling and thinking.  Seems no matter what I would do I just wasn't a "good enough daughter".  So I've quite trying to be a "good daughter" a "good enough daughter" or even a "daughter".  Anyways I was never really the daughter, I was expected to fill the role of the parent.  So ... it's time for the child to grow up and leave the nest.  

Some people you can never have a "normal" relationship with.  Ones gauge of healthyness is not if they can have a "normal" relationship with someone who isn't capable of having a "normal" relationship.  So I agree that gauge needs to be thrown out.

Now if my mother or father were in financial need I would provide what I could, now they are not in that situation, they are well off financially.  Other than that I don't feel compelled to open myself up or my family (husband and children) to their games.  

LM

[Anonymous]

Other than that I don't feel compelled to open myself up or my family (husband and children) to their games.

Same here LM. That can be a tough thing to do but its necessary when there is no reward just all misery.
Takes a strong daughter to be able to that. I'm glad your one, especially for your kids.

Mudpup

[Anonymous]

Stay away, Greta.  My mother and my sister cost me thousands in psychiatric fees, several suicide attempts, and years of self blame.  Nothing was ever good enough, I was NEVER a good enouh daughter or sister.  Well, fuck em.  I quit trying.  I quit being the bad seed, found my own life, and even managed to have a wonderful whole existence--after I started using my tremendous life energy to LIVE instead of support two vampires.  After mom died, I cut sis out for ten years.  Six years ago, much healther, I let her back in.  She honeymooned me for two years, got cancer and got away with emotional murder (she was under so much stress, how could I object?), and then, when she got better, started to play hardball again.  After the last vicious attack, I said enough, said goodbye and just walked away.  

I know it hurts to do this (boy, do I know) but not doing it hurts a lot more.  Remember--you didn't make them they way they are, and you don't owe them a cure or your life.  You owe them less than half of what they have already taken from you.  Be safe, be happy, be free, and STAY AWAY.
freegirl.

[Greta]

Thank you to all who so kindly posted a reply to my questions about being a *good* daughter.  I really liked bunny's idea of being a *good enough* daughter.  

And Chutzbagirl's comment that the healthier you get the harder it may be to have a relationship with a troubled person, because you truly see how scary they are, made a lot of sense in my situation.   I haven't seen her in so long, that I find myself drifting into "Was she really that bad?" I have to do a mental accounting of how much pain I was in when I finally found a good therapist, and  come back to reality.  My Nmother seems so harmless to the rest of the world and that drives me crazy!

I keep reminding myself that nothing is enough for my mother, so to sacrifice myself by doing things on her terms, is a sacrifice done for an illusion--the illusion that I will ever be able to fulfill her needs.  It's hard to let go of that illusion--the hope that there is something I could do to make her see me as a real person, make her love me, but for my sanity I have to keep working on letting it go.

Greta

[Anonymous]

Greta:

I have to N brothers.  The longer I live away from them and the exposure the harder it is to "visit" or listen to their blathering about themselves.  It is very startling when you do visit or allow them back into your life for a short period of time, nothing changes with them does it?

You end up doing the only thing you can..........little or no contact to minimize the Nness and abuse.  

I am glad you have been able to work through it all and go on and make a good life for yourself.  It takes a lot of "nerves of steel" to make it through.  I have only the greatest respect for you for making it.  Patz

[vunil]

I haven't seen her in so long, that I find myself drifting into "Was she really that bad?"

Greta, I am going through the exact same thing (seems I am always writing that here-- I guess this board is the place for me!).  Last weekend I talked to my N mom after a few weeks of no contact and it took me a couple of days to get over that 20 minute conversation.

One thing I've found, and I'm interested to hear if others have found this, is that the more I am around them the more I can tolerate them. I don't know if it's because they stop some of the games after awhile or if I just get used to being the doormat (I think it's the latter).  After being away a lot in the last 6 months or so, really not talking to them at all for a good three months, now I can't tolerate them particularly well at all.  I actually feel physically ill after a couple of minutes.

[Anonymous]

Vunil:

I think it is sorta like a frog in the water.  The frog is in the frying pan and the water is just lukewarm, slowly the water is getting hotter but the frog does not notice, because the heat has slowly been turned up.  Before you know it, he is one fried frog!  Same with being around the Nness of your family.  Pretty soon you find yourself "tolerating" all kind of things.  Your separation and mine, for that matter, allows for validation, introspection, analytical comparasion.............hence little or no "toleration" for their Nness.  

I don't know about you, but when I do visit, their behaviour, their values, whatever you want to call it, is horrifying.  At least my N brother began to realize that I found his  and his children's "lifestyle" horrifying.  When he confronted me with this  I told him yes I found how they lived horrifying.
Haven't been back since.  Patz

[Anonymous]

When I lived far away from my parents, visiting them was really hard. I noticed all the dysfunction as under a microscope. Now that I live near them again, I'm more used to them. I definitely put on a mask around them but it's not the mask I used to wear of neurosis and wierdness. I now wear the mask of cordiality and shallowness. It works really well and I feel my parents appreciate it. They can't tolerate much more than that. I usually have to "debrief" after seeing them but it only takes about a half-hour when it used to take a week.

My late MIL was another story. I had to drink beforehand to face her. Her behavior really upset me. My H and I had our worst marital problems over my inability to visit her, phone her, or have any relationship with her unless I was forced to. Fortunately for our marriage, she was very old and died. Ironically, he avoids my family like the plague but I understand his feelings. He couldn't understand my feelings because he was so enmeshed with his mom.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Hi vunil,

One thing I've found, and I'm interested to hear if others have found this, is that the more I am around them the more I can tolerate them. I don't know if it's because they stop some of the games after awhile or if I just get used to being the doormat (I think it's the latter).

Definitely the latter for me. When you're immersed in it its just so much easier to go along than be beaten down or attacked for speaking up. When I'm away from it, as I have been for awhile now, my tolerance for the way he treats people is zero. I lose respect for myself for ever tolerating it.

bunny wrote,

I definitely put on a mask around them but it's not the mask I used to wear of neurosis and wierdness. I now wear the mask of cordiality and shallowness. It works really well and I feel my parents appreciate it.

I can't do that anymore. I refuse to put that mask on that tells my brother his behavior is acceptable. Its the only 'mask' I'm aware of ever wearing, and I'm ashamed I wore it. When I had that mask on I stood by while he did to other people what he is doing to me.
That's not a criticism of you bunny. They are your parents which is a different relationship, and their behavior is probably different than my N. Its just what I personally have to do have any self respect.

mudpuppy

[Anonymous]

mudpup,

I wouldn't wear that mask either and I'm glad you took it off. I don't condone any really crappy behavior around me. I step up to the plate and they know I will do it.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Hi All:

Greta, if your mother were a really, really good mom, then she would deserve to be treated really, really well and you wouldn't have to struggle to be what seems like a really good daughter, right?  Wouldn't all of that just come naturally?

It seems to me that your mother was not a good mom at all.  Do you think she deserves to be treated really, really well, even if you have to struggle to be what seems like a really good daughter?  Even if it feels unnatural?

Or......can you redefine what being a good daughter really is and try to match that to what you feel like giving back to her, according to her mothering and what feels natural to you?

You are a good daughter, Greta.  But you don't have a good mother to share good things with.  Maybe it would help to think of it as giving her whatever good things it feels good to give.  If that is a nice card that you really like, with words you really mean.......what's so awful about that?

If you can send an email outlining what's going on in your life and if she shows interest, what's wrong with that?  And if she doesn't?  She's just continuing to mother according to her history.  It probably won't change.

If you send her a gift....something you spent time finding....something you think is nice......isn't that what good daughters do?  And if she doesn't appreciate it......why worry?

If she tells you that you are not a good daughter, you don't have to believe that, do you?  And if you give her some good from you to her and she doesn't see it, why would you possibly wish to waste more of your goodness...trying to convince her?

Just my thoughts on it.  (((((((Greta)))))))

GFN

[crookedtree]

Hey, thanks, Greta for this topic!  I just read the whole thread and I appreciate the similarities to my own challenges.  I especially enjoyed bunny's advice not to co-sign the B.S.  
I see my mom now about every three weeks (used to be two three times a week) and I am already only taking a few days to debrief, myself, so I'm on my way to success!  And my partner has instituted a no contact rule with my mother.  So that has indirectly helped decrease my contact - she doesn't visit our home anymore - it's off limits!  It's great, actually!  And I am feeling more and more confident in myself and my ability to choose contact or not, and my ability to accept the consequences of that (contact - turmoil; no contact - guilt (but less and less guilt)).  
Oh yeah, things are lookin' up.  Greta, I hope that you can take pride in what great strides you've made in the area of separation!  And I hope that serenity descends upon you on her birthday, Mother's Day, etc. no matter what choice you make in terms of contact.  I will be thinking of you and wishing you the best.

[Anonymous]

Greta:

I remember being a parent to my mother for a long time.  She was a very emotionally needy person.  I can tell you in my entire married life my parents visited my home TWICE in 20 some odd years.  My n brothers visited me TWICE.  However I was expected to keep the road hot going back and forth to see them!  It was the same with the phone calls.   When my child was born I decided that all of that would stop.  If they wanted to see ME, wanted to visit, they would have to make some effort.  Needless to say the N in them prevented that.

After my mother died, my n father married his mistress of God knows how long.  He wanted me to accept this ( this is after he tortured my mother with this relationship) and "let by gones be by gones".  I did not speak to him for 8 years except the 2 months before he died.  I felt absolutely nothing for him at the funeral.  Then the preacher who was doing the funeral had the unmitigated gall to diss me in front of everyone about my relationship with my father.  He only had my father's side of what happened and the preacher did not know me at all!   It was truly a very bad experience.  I have not been back to see my "self absorbed" family much since that time.  So I can give you chapter and verse on what "being a bad daughter" is like.  Don't believe any of it.  Ns will use any excuse to project on to you so you can be the "guilty" one.  This way they can get out of any responsibility for their part of the relationship.

Stay away Greta.  The longer you are away from the Nness the healthier you become.  The healthier you become the more you are able to stand up and take care of yourself.  Patz