Being a good daughter

[Greta]

I'm coming up on the gauntlet of Easter, my nmother's birthday(April 1st. . .) and Mother's Day, and struggling with what it means to be a "good daughter."  I haven't seen  nmother in several years because in her presence I feel like I cease to exist.   I was her little shadow, following her around, and never imagined that I could set any boundaries at all with her.  I feel bad for the person I was at 24--when my h and I got married, she stayed in the living room of our efficiency apartment on our wedding night.  I didn't have a voice to say "get a hotel" and in fact it wouldn't have occurred to me.  She trained me to accept her intrusiveness, and so now, when I stay away, I feel like a horrible daughter.  

At the beginning of therapy 4 years ago I assumed that I would know I was healthy when I could see my mother again, and have a *normal* relationship.  Over the past couple years I realized that this cannot be the benchmark of my health, and is unlikely to happen because her emotional vampirism is not going away.  I am getting own life for the first time ever, and that's what counts.  But she sent an email last year wondering if my therapy was helping, and maybe I should take medication--all because I haven't started seeing her again.  I had to keep telling myself that she couldn't take my progress away from me.  

My therapist believes that sending her cards on her birthday and a small gift at Christmas, and short chit chatty emails every couple months constitutes being a *good daughter.*   This of course was a radical idea to me!  My mother could never get enough of me--no visit was ever long enough(except of course if she had something better to do).  Does anyone on the board have experience with redefining what it means to be a good daughter(or good son)?  What makes it worse is that she's a minister, so everyone thinks she's a saint, and she's a therapist, which is just plain scary.  

I've learned so much from reading this board--I'm glad it's here!

Greta

[mum]

Wow, Greta.  You sound very healthy and centered to me.  I would not want that kind of calm to be upset, either.
Boundaries are so very hard.  Especially with a parent, I would imagine.
But I have been learning that setting them is truly the most compassionate thing we can do, for ourselves and for those who routinely violate them. It tells them we care too much about ourselves and them to accept anything short of love and respect from them. Interesting.
Your mother is not the first major Narc I have heard of who parades around as a "higher up" of a church.  How very sad.  I imagine, though, there are lots of N's in such postitions. Power is power to them, regardless of the package (even if it seems contradictory to us who see through the mask).
I think your therapist's idea of a "good daughter" is fine, but even that may be just too much for you.  Hard to do, but if you can forget that she is your mother for a moment....would it help?  Then decide whether you would be communicating with this person at all.  Then go from there.

[October]

..

[Anonymous]

Hi Greta,

My therapist believes that sending her cards on her birthday and a small gift at Christmas, and short chit chatty emails every couple months constitutes being a *good daughter.*

I hope this doesn't sound mean but that is more than she deserves.
Don't you think your interaction with your mom should be completely dependent on what is healthy for you? If that means zero contact then so be it. Your duty is to get healthy and not be pulled backwards by the person who failed you as a mother.
I redefined the role with my brother by finally realizing he is not a brother at all, and completely severing contact with him.  I never did watch the end of 'Rosemary's Baby'. Maybe my parents unwittingly adopted her kid.  
You have been forced to raise yourself, emotionally speaking. The only thing that matters in that case is protecting yourself. If you can interact with her, while staying healthy and it feels right then trust your instincts. However she has forfeited her right to have you consider what is best for her by forfeiting her duty to raise you in a loving home.
To thine own self be true.

mudpup

[Guest1]

What does it mean to be a good daughter or good sibling?  

That was just what I was thinking when I retreated to this board today after dealing with yet another brother.  He is way too busy, which I know isnt true to keep these new summer trailer search going. Naturally he thinks I have lots of time because I am single.  Could not be more wrong.  I suggested sharing the duties to move the concept forward but sharing was too much for him. It had to be all me working or nothing.  SO naturally I will feel like the bad daughter if I dont keep this moving forward and the brothers are more than happy to blame me for not doing all the work, sitting in the back seat, etc.  AAEEEIII!!!?

Oh Greta, I am so sorry.  I hijacked your thread.  Please forgive me.

Trying to decide what is appropriate and what we can tolerate as far as being the "good" daughter, sister, etc., is difficult espeically with mothers and daughters as those very words have such a powerful impact. When you said you felt like your mother's shadow with no voice of your own. some strange familiar feeligns started hitting me.  That was how I felt.

I agree with the posters that say it is up to you and what you are comfortable with.  You are not a bad daughter by setting your own boundaries. Unfortunatley those with your mothers tendancies know no boundaires and constantly violate ours.  Can you leave town on Easter?  I have found that to be an appropriate response.

[bunny]

My therapist believes that sending her cards on her birthday and a small gift at Christmas, and short chit chatty emails every couple months constitutes being a *good daughter.*

I concur. You don't have to be a "good" daughter, but a "good-enough" daughter. And that's good enough for yourself, not for her. She made herself impossible to deal with. There are consequences for that.

bunny

[bunny]

Guest1/b,

What is the "summer trailer search"? Just because everyone agrees that you have to do all the work, doesn't mean you have to co-sign the BS.

bunny

[mudpup]

Hi Guest1,
I also do not know what a summer trailer search is but I do know about the rest of it.

I suggested sharing the duties to move the concept forward but sharing was too much for him. It had to be all me working or nothing.

My jackass sibling would actually give me a list of things I needed to accomplish while he took a six month vacation overseas. This of course would be in addition to me working like a dog at our business and giving him half the profits.
What is now so hard for me to believe is, I actually did some of them, and then would listen to him complain about how poorly I had done them when he got back! God that used to infuriate me!
I keep complaining about the limited types of emoticons here; I could really use one puking right about now. Here, this guys mouth is open, just imagine he's tossing his cookies.
Many Ns I believe are terrified of failure and what appears to be laziness or a sense of entitlement is actually this fear. That's why they aspire to management, if something goes right they take the credit, if something goes wrong there's always an underling to be the fall guy.

mudpup

[Guest1]

I have to come up with a real name here.  I dont want to hijack Greta's thread even if it is related.  The summer trailer thing goes back to my thread about the Nar brother but now a different one. The one that actually went with me to look at the summer trailers after crazy body builder Nar brohter got upset because I was sitting in the front seat of the car.  
 
Greta, we can only do what we can, as good daughters, sisters, brothers, husbands, wives, friends etc.  So many of us have had trouble setting these boundaries.  And it is so often trial and error to find out what we can live with and what are boundaries are.  ANd many of us, particularly the woman,  want to please people.  Unfortuantley it was how we were raised even if we were or are independent.  It still seems left to us to plan the events, do the work, etc, etc.  Carry the emotional load for the family.

How much time do you spend with aging parents or psychotic brothers?  And at least one has a nar psycho wife.  I can spend a lot of time with them if they arent shaming, blaming, taking out their anxieties on me or expecting me to do all the work.  This does actuallyhappen sometiems but who knows why?

Greta, I dont know if this will help you but I had so many bad experiences at Christmas I started leaving town for CHristmas.  It is also my birthday.  Christmas away from everybody has had its sad moments but it has mostly been a huge relief.  I go to Florida. I decided enough was enough several years ago.  We actually did spend Christmas all together this year in Flroida.  Probably the first time for me in 12 years or more.  It had its great moments especially with the kids, but was kind of nerve wracking.  I got a lot of massages and spent hours trying to get the club steam room to work.  Sometimes I just laid down on its bench to center myself even when it wasnt working..hahaha!!!

Maybe it is time to create your own traditions without your mother or with limited involvement with her.  Is that possible?  If you have family, can you go somewhere? I hope this has helped and isnt too much about me.  I would like to think I could help someone else too.

Bliz (new name)

[chutzbagirl - Reply]

I thought that the healthier I got the more contact I would be able to have with my N Mom as well.  However, I've found the opposite to be true.  The healthier I am the more accutely I feel the pain of her dishonesty, lack of respect, slander and rejection.  Unfortunately, the nature of my Mom's N causes her to need to be the center of male attention - the moment I was born I became a threat to her.  

I am learning to take much better care of my heart which means no contact with my Mom.  It's a hard path to take - but it is better than routinely putting my heart through a meat grinder.  Being a good daughter means learning to be true to ourselves even when we have to live with the discomfort of disappointing others.

[Bliz(Guest1)]

"My jackass sibling would actually give me a list of things I needed to accomplish while he took a six month vacation overseas. This of course would be in addition to me working like a dog at our business and giving him half the profits.
What is now so hard for me to believe is, I actually did some of them, and then would listen to him complain about how poorly I had done them when he got back! God that used to infuriate me!
I keep complaining about the limited types of emoticons here; I could really use one puking right about now. Here, this guys mouth is open, just imagine he's tossing his cookies.  
Many Ns I believe are terrified of failure and what appears to be laziness or a sense of entitlement is actually this fear. That's why they aspire to management, if something goes right they take the credit, if something goes wrong there's always an underling to be the fall guy."


Boy this does sound like them, write down to the list and then criticism.

The summer trailer thing is getting a new accomodation at a family river camp.  Mom and Dad actually were willing to chip in money if the kids would organize the search and find the trailer Naturally this is fraught  with problems.  

Nar brother stormed out of the first meeting last year when he got into it with brother number 2.  He stormed out of the car last Saturday becuase I was sitting in the front seat.  (Can you belive it?) Power, power, power.  Brother1 and I went on to the mobile home place and knocked out several questions and looked at accomodations but now he is "too busy" to assist in moving things forward .

Brother1 actulally sent over a list for me to do, similar to the above.  I emailed back how about splitting the duties and he said he was "buried" unitl April 15th.  Trust me this guy goes down to company number 1 and does nothing all day.  It is a very poorly kept secret. But now he can say that the whole thing fell through because I wouldnt follow up.  He can alwasy say it is the kids, wife, etc.  I dont have the ready made excuse but trust me I probably work more hours than any of them.  I threw it back at him to at least split some of the duties but we will see.

Just infuriates me how their time and everything else about them is more valuable than anyone else and the parents will probably support it.

Aeeiiii!!!  (Sound of me running down the street pulling my substantial amount of hair out.)

[Brigid]

Greta,

I went through this with both my parents (who are now both dead) at two different times so I know what you are going through.  My father was the truly impossible one to live with and made life miserable for all of us.  I put up with his crap all my life, finally getting strong enough to stand up for myself and my mother, but she always took his side anyway.  I finally couldn't take the stress anymore and walked away for two years with no contact with either of them.  My mother blamed me, of course, and made me out to be the evil daughter.  Fortunately I lived 350 miles away so I could distance myself both mentally and physically.  I returned to see him 2 weeks before he died.  His death did not affect me at all.  

After my father died, I did what I had to do to help my mother, but we never had any relationship after that and she was eventually diagnosed with Alzheimers, changed her will leaving 80% of her estate to my brother who is not married and has no children.  She left the remaining 20% to me and nothing to my children, who were her only grandchildren.  She passed away in early January and I have felt virtually nothing at her loss either.

I sometimes wonder what is wrong with me, but I think it has much more to do with what was wrong with them.  I also raised myself emotionally which makes you feel like you had no parents.

Greta, do what you have to do to save yourself.  Don't lose sleep over the guilt of not contacting your mother.  She is not worth it.  You are.  You have a chance to be happy and live a normal life.  She's the one that has to adapt and change to allow you to return to a relationship with her.  Don't sacrifice yourself unless she is willing to change.  If she is an N she most likely won't.  These people poison us and leave us damaged.  You are in therapy to get healed.  The only way that can work is if you don't keep redamaging yourself by allowing her presence in your life.

I'm praying for you.

Brigid

[mudpup]

Hi Bliz (definitely better than guest 1),

He stormed out of the car last Saturday becuase I was sitting in the front seat.

Hilarious,   .... of course I wasn't there.
My daughter was literally more mature than my brother when she was five, LITERALLY. She had to set the rules if they were playing together.  

I'll bet you could make some tremendous contributions to the "most narcissistic comments ever" thread.

Aeeiiii!!! (Sound of me running down the street pulling my substantial amount of hair out.)

I can't afford to do that anymore. Not quite as substantial as it used to be.

mudpup

[Stormchild Guesting]

I thought that the healthier I got the more contact I would be able to have with my N Mom as well.  However, I've found the opposite to be true.  The healthier I am the more accutely I feel the pain of her dishonesty, lack of respect, slander and rejection.

Chutz, The healthier you become, and the more it shows, the more of a threat you are. Remember Don Quixote? or the movie Man of La Mancha? how he was defeated by the Knight of the Mirrors, who showed him what he really was? Quixote was a sympathetic character, idealistic (at least in the film - the book's a lot rougher!), so it's not a perfect analogy, but when you hold a mirror up to a N - a real mirror, not some magic mirror flattering thing - they can't stand it, they can't face it, they have to stop it any way possible.

And oh yeah. I noticed when I went to Al-anon and CoDA meetings that the old-timers were easy to recognize by one key feature: they no longer had their primary addict/abusers in their lives.

((((Chutzbagirl))))

[bunny]

Bliz,

These people have a history of exploiting you. Reasoning/arguing with them about sharing responsibilities is useless. They aren't interested. So what if they blame you. They always do anyway. I say, blame me all you want. Let's see how many trailers that gets you.

bunny