The Art of Not Being Offended by Dr. Jodi Prinzivalli

[phillip]

I have a response to your statement Portia, "Maybe there was no creation?"  

I got myself into alot of trouble on another board where alot of philosophy was being presented about how to "properly"  connect with spirit.  Because the person writing had two near-death experiences, he felt he was in an authoritative position to discuss the nature of god and creation.  I merely presented the question to him, "How can something come from nothing?"  This is the profound question.  If we can answer it, we need go no further, IMHO.  The creation of a god concept does not satisfy as an answer, because obviously we are still left with the question, "Where did god come from?"

I never believed in the big bang, and never will.  Often I think that humans attempting to understand infinity and eternity is like an ant trying to figure out what a lawn mower is that is leveling its ant hill.

Belief is another topic.  I was once married to a Scorpio, she was a medium and telekinetic.  My ideas are not based on belief, the ones that are even I do not classify as truth, only theory, speculation.  I only believe in the things I experience personally, then create theories to explain it.  

I spent years literally at the feet of a gifted holy woman.  Though often skeptical, she always impressed me with the reality of her gifts.  I could go on and on with specifics, that most would not believe.  But suffice it to say that her belief was that we create what we think.  Add to that the magnetic power of intention and total faith and we are creators.  I am working on this faith for myself.  The rest seems somewhat circular.  Why ask questions that have no answers?

I will share something that some may find interesting.  She told me something once, when we were alone.  She channeled this, and she only vaguely remembers her words.  She said each atom of matter contains the potential of a black hole.  She said the earth, and any planetary body or star contains within it a black hole.  The reason the earth does not get sucked up, is because there is a balance.  It involves the size of the black hole, and the matter that gets added to the earth's mass simply by the attraction that the black hole exerts on local space debris.  This is the engine that creates heat and techtonic activity and radiation.

She also added that this engine creates lenslike portals, that are relatively stable.  Some of the ancient sights were built to perpetuate the location and memory of these sights.  She said that these sights are the "tunnels"  that people who have had near death experiences have referred to.  She told me that these lenses are the soul's entry and exit from the material realm.  She said Native American mystics can see these "coordinates" in a person's "Medicine Wheel" which is their term for the aura.  She said Machu Pichu is such a site.  There are others.

Obviously, I can prove none of this.  I merely think it highly interesting and I hope any of you do too.

[Anonymous]

Good morning everyone,
What a nice friendly place to discuss things.
Phillip, I must confess I am unfamiliar with your reference to the thirteenth seat as where Christ came from. Perhaps you could give me the verse?

I hope this has not offended anyone.

Not me. I don't agree with your beliefs, but you are obviously a kind and considerate and sincere person. I hope you get Brigid's vacation squared away before she gets there.

Portia,
 

Faith isn’t logic to me

I didn't mean logic is faith. I meant it can be logical and reasonable to have faith that something unprovable exists if there is sufficient evidence.

So why is the universe and human nature utterly improbable?

I agree with you here. It is only improbable to our limited minds. To the creator it is probably very probable. Look up the anthropic principle. It is not really a testable scientific theory, but it is a calculation of the huge number of precisely correct circumstances which have had to occur for life to have even been possible on earth. The odds are exponentially long of you and me even existing to communicate.

Who knows that trees don’t think? We do not know.

Considering my line of work I sincerely hope they don't.

We know very little but we don’t like to admit it.

I admit it. I find it somewhat amusing that as science describes and measures and gains a minimal understanding of the universe that it tends to increase our arrogance not decrease it. You would think that discovering a tiny portion of the wonder around us and getting an idea of how little we know we would be humbled. I don't claim to know much of anything. I do however believe there is a God who does, and all he asks of us is we acknowledge him.

Just because we experience life as linear (born, live, die) it doesn’t mean that the universe is linear. Time is our idea. The idea of beginnings and ends is our idea. I wish I could find somewhere where I could use this way of thought – .

I found somewhere to use this line of thought. When you describe something outside of time and outside of the observable universe you are describing God, to me anyway.

then I wouldn’t have to bore your pants off, sorry. It is quite lonely being me, I don’t have a book to follow, or other people who talk like me. If anyone is still with me here, and you can point me somewhere else, hey, I’d love that.

You're not boring my pants off. I'm not feeling any cold drafts anyway. I love this conversation, and I'm still with you. You are very thoughtful and quite reasonable. And a bit of a wiseguy too, which I always admire.
vunil,

I can't believe in anything spiritually that contradicts what I believe rationally and scientifically, and that requires me to suspend any disbelief whatsoever. I think I'm different from a lot of people in this way?

I believe in the big bang. And I believe it occurred billions of years ago. I also believe there is obviously a progression of animal life from simpler to more complex over billions of years. I think Darwinian evolution has some insuperable hurdles to clear, but the critters were obviously here.
Try visiting a site called reasons.org. Sorry don't know how to do the link thing. It is an organization started by a Caltech astrophysicist name Hugh Ross who claims to have developed a testable creation model incorporating the big bang and other scientific discoveries. It is extremely powerful from the astrophysical side and biblical interpretaion side, maybe a little weaker on the biological side. It has opened the eyes of a great many skeptics who have been tripped up by Genesis and the traditional interpretation of it.
I wonder at your conjoining rationality and science. They aren't one and the same are they? They are only identical if we begin with a logical fallacy aren't they?. If we assume that the only things that exist are what we can measure or observe then they are the same. If however something exists outside of our realm of observation we cannot by definition observe it. Isn't it irrational to make that assumption? How do I know you exist. I have made the rational assumption that the byproducts of your existence(your posts) demonstrate you exist. That's why I believe in God. The byproduct of the creator, his creation, indicates his existence. And our ability to measure his creation strengthens not weakens my faith.

And I feel a little caught in between, between my friends who are faithful to their religions (whether it is tarot or astrology or christianity or earth-based spirituality or whatever) and my friends who are scientists and reject the idea of god and spirituality out of hand as just ignorant.

I have a feeling I'm the odd woman out here too

You don't seem odd to me in the slightest. I sometimes have the same feeling among Christians many of whom repeat dogma that is completely unrelated to the bible in any way. I think you are great and have an open mind. Maybe they ought to be the odd ones out?

Hope your little one is enjoying the conversation. He's so close to the keyboard he must know what you're saying.  

Its pouring rain here so I have nothing better to do than make long rambling posts.

mudpup

PS. The DaVinci codes. There are scholarly critics of faith of any kind and Chritianity in general. This guy isn't one. He is a complete historical ignoramus who is making a quick buck off of a lot of gibberish.  

[Anonymous]

Hi again Phillip,

The creation of a god concept does not satisfy as an answer, because obviously we are still left with the question, "Where did god come from?"

I believe this is also a logical fallacy. You must first assume it is impossible for something to exist eternally without beginning or end. It is logically impossible to prove that such a being doesn't exist so your question does not dispose of the 'god concept'.
The bible explicitly states God is without begining or end. If he is, then he came from nowhere, He simply is. When the Pharisees asked JC how he could have known Abraham, who had lived two thousand years earlier, he simply said, "I Am". Now you may not believe that, but from a philosophical point of view you can't just say something is impossible, which cannot be proven to be impossible, to answer a question.

mud

[Anonymous]

Hiya Mud:

The way I insert a link (which works but there may be other or better ways) is......

Open a second window and go to the site I want to link up.

Flip back and forth between that window and the message box so as to type the addy in the message box correctly (including capital letters, if any).

http://www.reasons.org/about/index.shtml

Then right click and highlight the addy just typed.

Click "URL" at the top right of the message box.

And there you have it!

GFN

[catlover]

As far as I can tell, the "science" in such matters gets better and better at DESCRIBING phenomena with greater accuracy and detail, but it does not EXPLAIN them.  How could it, when meaning is subjective and science is supposedly objective?

Phillip:  You have me completely hooked - I want to know more about your experiences!!!  By the way, did you get my birth info via private message?

[Anonymous]

GFN,
How did I know you would provide the answer?
Do you ever tire of being so helpful? Seems like it would be a burden once in awhile.
Thanks.

mud

[Anonymous]

Seems like it would be a burden once in awhile.

A few moments of typing is no burden at all Mudpuppy.

You're quite welcome.

GFN

[vunil]

Considering my line of work I sincerely hope they don't.

So funny!

Thanks everyone for being so comforting and accepting

I do actually have spiritual beliefs, but heaven knows they would make no sense if I tried to explain them.  Maybe that's why I can't find a church that exactly fits me!  Light bulb!  The church of the inarticulately expressed ideas.

My feelings about science are similar to what many feel about the supernatural. I thank the stars every day that someone studied narcicissm and wrote down evidence of it and how it affects us and what to do about it (i.e., run away...).  It just seems like the world's greatest gift to have people out there figuring stuff out and then telling us.  Fills me with awe...

And in a weird way, for me, the particulars of the physical earth (and universe) are what I find most mystical and god-like.  I want to know everything about them.  It feels worshipful for me to do that.

anyway, thanks, list!  

[bunny as guest]

In my experience, most (not all!) of my friends who are involved in a religious or belief system feel pretty upset if I do not share it.  I think this is a normal human reaction.

I don't think it's normal to get "pretty upset" that you don't share their belief system. It's kind of narrowminded. Why can't they just chill out about it. I've had no pressure regarding religion but only about PC-ness. I am not that PC. So some people have tut-tutted me and even gotten hot under the collar because I disagreed with them. I don't even care. I figure it's a free country.

But it is true that many religious people see a declaration of lack of faith as a weakness that can be saved-- and they try to fix it or save it or whatever with their own faith.  In general not believing in something is treated as a deficit, to be fixed with argumentation, evidence, testimonials, whatever.   I've received this reaction from people who believe in everything from psychic phenomenon to conservative christianity (not sure what that is a continuum of, but anyway).  It just bugs them that I don't believe-- and I feel so uncomfortable!  Somehow not believing in [whatever] is evidence of lack of imagination or something.

I usually pretend to agree with them; start acting saved or whatever they want. I might say, God Bless You, Thank You Jesus, and they cheerfully move on. Arguing with them only encourages their prosletyzing.

I think this is because whatever state someone is in feels comfortable and useful to them and they'd like to share it with other people.

Here are some reasons I've observed: the person may be mentally fragile and prosletyzing keeps him "together" (when a stranger approaches me). Or the person is a bit tunnelvisioned and wants everyone to be like them (can't tolerate differences). Or the person wants to report back to their church about the missionary work they did. I don't think any of it is meanspirited but I don't think it's really about sharing. It's more about wanting to rescue other people who didn't ask for it.

I disagree with hordes of people. I don't think they care. And if they do, c'est la vie.

bunny

[2cents]

Hey all,

What a huge cool thread! So much to digest, gonna have to go back and read it all S-L-O-W-L-Y again for the fifth time! Just a little info on Scorpio's: (don't know much but astrology has always interested me) they aren't ruled by sex, they're the sign of birth, death and rebirth. Every sign has a corresponding part of the body, and Scorpio's is the genitals. Scorpio's are very sexual but in a spiritual sense and in terms of cosmic energies. They have the ability to regenerate themselves (if they know how to use their power) which may be where the healing aspect comes from.

Off to reread this thread and get some more education !

[Storm]

 Mudpup said: I believe in the big bang. And I believe it occurred billions of years ago. I also believe there is obviously a progression of animal life from simpler to more complex over billions of years. I think Darwinian evolution has some insuperable hurdles to clear, but the critters were obviously here....  The byproduct of the creator, his creation, indicates his existence. And our ability to measure his creation strengthens not weakens my faith.

Hey Mud! I'm a theistic evolutionist as well... and my father, crazy though he doubtless was in other respects, worked very credibly on several projects that measured - among other things - the residual radio noise left over from the Big Bang. So y'all know where I stand on that one.   (And of course, "Let there be light" = the Maxwell equations! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell's_equations )

I mean, why would God go to all that trouble to make DNA and RNA and protein, and then not use them to the fullest?      

Thanks for the awe-some info on reasons.org. I never knew that was there.

[vunil]

I mean, why would God go to all that trouble to make DNA and RNA and protein, and then not use them to the fullest?

I love that!  

I was thinking this morning about what a wondrous thing antibiotics are.  And x-rays!  And ultrasounds (pregnant ladies love those).  It seems everything is there for us to discover and figure out how it all fits together-- and when we do, it is pretty darned interesting.  I mean-- chromosomes have to be the most interesting thing ever (did I mention I was pregnant?).

[vunil]

Oh, just realized something--  the reason why I don't believe in the creation story literally, or even combined with evolution,  is because I think it's way less interesting and compelling than just regular old big-bang/evolution, which knocks my socks off utterly.  Just seems to be more wondrous wondrousness in the latter, to me.   I feel god in it.  Whatever the heck I mean by that (please don't ask me to explain! I have no idea how to).


(I know most of us here disagree with at least one of those statements!  But I hope you'll indulge my revelations, which I'm utterly enjoying).

[Portia]

Hiya all, I love this thread, I’ve never seen or heard such an open conversation.

Phillip,

I only believe in the things I experience personally, then create theories to explain it.

I understand this and accept it. I would add get as much information about it and then compare all experience to your own experience and see how it matches and differs? If this is your faith, then I like your faith. I guess if I have faith (I’m hung up on words and language, so-) then it’s similar.

She also added that this engine creates lenslike portals, that are relatively stable.

This is all fascinating and stretching. Thank you.  It fits into using energy holes for ‘travel’ too which is a lovely thought to entertain. I just can’t see right now how we fleshy things could ever evolve to such a level where we could somehow withstand the forces though. But ‘they’ are investigating such things. Beam me up Scotty.

Q: if you could go back or forward in time just once, which would you choose? I’d go forward and see if we survive, what we’re doing, how we’re living. But how far forward? Suppose we die out….if I go forward far enough…would a different species be ‘doing better’? Just playing.

Hiya mudpup,

I do however believe there is a God who does, and all he asks of us is we acknowledge him.

I can’t see how any God would be bothered enough with us to be concerned about our acknowledgement. Why would he ask anything of us? I don’t understand how we can be that important. If we are important, we’re not doing very well at taking care of ourselves and our home, we need educating!  

One of the reasons I question any idea of an external higher power that is interested in us, is that, well, it seems too much like a parent/child relationship and in some ways, too close to human narcissism than I like. Do you see what I mean? I get uncomfortable with the ‘relationships’ involved.

GFN,

When I said “I’d like to understand faith better”  what I meant was I’d like to understand why some people have faith. I know what faith is. I don’t know why some people have it and others don’t. Don’t think I expressed that very well before.

You do have a set of principles and beliefs. So you do have one type of faith.

I don’t have any principles which are absolute. Can’t think of any which I wouldn’t change given the right circumstances. Seriously. Murder, suicide, much worse. They could all be argued for given certain theoretical situations (but that gets a bit sick for everyday yakking). What about faith in myself? I could easily be driven ‘mad’ and perhaps not know what was me or not me. Faith would be believing that couldn’t happen I guess. I don’t have that faith. Anything could happen.

I haven’t read all of the Bible, or the Talmud, or the Koran etc. They don’t interest me enough now, and I’ve given up reading books because I think I ‘should’ read them. Maybe I will read them one day. On that desert island.

Do you trust anyone?

I trust myself more now. But you mean trust others? And if so with what? My life? My Self (which is more important to me than my life)? Honestly, no I don’t trust anyone with my Self. Because there is no-one that knows me like I know me. To trust someone else with my Self, my mind, would be illogical, lazy and irresponsible to me. Unless I was ‘mad’ and then I might have no choice (or would I?). Tricky subject, insanity. Do you really trust anyone to that extent GFN, with your mind? Is this what faith is, feeling that God is responsible for what’s in your head? (trying to think how to phrase that better, but I can’t think how to, it’s a serious question though)

What I feel is a desire to comfort Portia and hope that she is not feeling "wrong or bad" but first.....I want to be sure it's ....people....she's concerned with who think that....and not God.

Thanks for wanting to comfort me GFN. If God thinks I’m wrong or bad, I don’t know that, so it literally doesn’t enter my thoughts, no problem. But I really don’t imagine he’d be interested one way or another. I wonder if God sees a difference between bad and good, right and wrong? I think Vunil answered this quote pretty well. It’s that I have enough on my plate trying to understand my fellow humans but I really like the humans here

[guest phil]

Dr. Stephen Wolinsky states that universally, his belief is that the shock of entry into the world , at birth, coupled with the awareness that we are not our mother at about 6 to 8 monts old creates a need in us to be safe.  This manifests as cycle of, "if I am good I get safe.  If I am bad, I get punished.  It is not a coincidence that we view god in this way.  Portia, your statement in your last post directly suggests that this is the case.  Very brilliant insight on your part, IMO.

Think on this concerning black holes.  If quasars are "white holes", where all of the matter is presently spewing out, keep in mind that most of the quasars are 15 billion light years out there.  Which means that we are seeing them from 15 billion years ago.  This would mean that the energy is somehow being thrust into the past.  How bizarre to think that the energy is actually recycling the universe, but TIME is being recycled also.  I think time is another conundrum that we do not have a grip on intellectually.  Just openly sharing my speculations.