An unanswered question

[Anonymous]

Hi butterfly :}

the other people said so many great things,  the topic of 'failure' is near and dear to my heart so I dont really have advice.. just some "mental images" to offer that may help, that have helped me.

like so many here my parents were excessively demanding perfectioninsts. they taught us nothing, but expected us to know everything. my way to deal with this was to become a devotee of 'failure' in all its spectacular, messy glory. i became an artist. in the world of art, there is no right and wrong. there is only what is there. its up to *you* to name it or categorize it as success or failure. its a metaphor for life to me.

my very best work was often created from what others would have called 'mistakes'. i found that those 'mistakes' were really a gateway to the most creative and unprecedented thought.  one of my best drawings was one that was partially destroyed by a dog ripping it up. i just used the ripped parts as part of the design, and it turned out way more interesting than it was before. every person that paid me money for that poster thought i meant it to be that way.

when i would sell painted tshirts, sometimes there would be spots or smudges for different reasons. instead of selling those shirts for less becuase they were 'flawed', instead I painted butterflies (yes butterflies and other beautiful things over the smudges, so that each smudge became instead a beautiful extra thing, and those shirts became my most popular and sold for much more than the ones 'without mistakes'.

our 'failures' or 'successes' are up to us to decide.

some quotes:

"people fall down - winners get up"

"Ideas do not have to be correct in order to be good; its only necessary that, if they do fail,  they do so in an interesting way." - Robert Rosen

I also think about the fact that it took Thomas Edison more than 100 tries before successfully inventing a working light bulb... It took women almost 100 years to get the vote. It took almost 100 years to invent the birth control pilll. Anything that was ever invented that we take for granted now, was often the product of a loooooong process of 'mistakes', failures, and roadblocks during which some poor soul refused to take no for an answer.  Many things that we use all the time were actually mistakes BEFORE they were invented, that people then thought, 'hey this is cool' and started to use. I see this all the time in things even like cooking. you dont have oregano, you use basil instead. then it becomes your favorite recipe. all becuase of a 'mistake'.

none of this is really advice... its just mental images on the concept of redefining 'failure' and 'success' for ones self. life is a process.. not a perfect, shrink-wrapped destination as we were taught. cutting off our access to the potential of 'failure' is just another way to stifle our creativity, our life force,  our unique way of being who we are and contributing to the world. dont you let them do it!!

as far as reprogramming our thoughts, i agree with some others that its not magic, for me its been simply discipline. ive seen the power of negative programming.. so, why not use a little positive programming. it has made a lot of changes in my thoughts, with time, patience, humor, and a LOT of forgiveness of my 'slips'. it still hurts to have other people critisice you. im not discounting that. those tapes in the head are powerful. just offering a different point of view.  

just a little musings on 'success' and 'failure', from someone who has taken failing 'to an art form' :}}>

[mum]

BKS Iyengar calls triumph and failure "the great imposters"....

[October]

One of the things I decided was, telling myself negative things was not in my interest so I can't do it anymore even if I want to, even if it comforts me in a perverse way, even if everything in me screams to do it. And I may do it anyway. But I will see it happening. That's the main thing.

bunny

I am really happy that you have found a way that works for you, Bunny.  I would like you to accept that I am not the same as you are.

As I have said, your strength cannot be my way at present.  That is not being negative, it is being realistic.  For me, the way is to embrace what feel like the broken bits of me, but as everyone here says, the parts which help to find growth, rather than to take what to me would not be strength, in fact, but denial; the N way out, which would be perfectionism and 'not allowing' any part of me which actually exists.  I am not saying that this is the case with you, of course not, but with me it would be.  N behaviour and language is very familiar to me, and I am not going to allow it in myself, even in relation to recovery.

My uncle denies he has depression.  When he had a major operation he stopped taking painkillers after three days because he didn't need them any more.  This is what I am trying not to do.  (And of course I am doing the same.  I don't take a/ds.  Too strong for me.)

Today I can wash the dishes, and some of the clothes.  I can look out of the window and admire the spring sunshine.  I may even be able to sit in the garden for a while.  These are all very good.

Yesterday I was cutting the grass and a helicopter was buzzing around nearby and then hovering, and I had to come inside, because it became dangerous to be there.  But that is not a failure; I went and finished it afterwards.  And I laughed at my funny ways; why should the helicopter want me; so I pretended I was a film star.    Perverse comfort is better than none at all.  

What difference is there between staying outside, resolutely self talking myself into being there, and coming inside, smiling to myself, and then finishing it later?  The important thing is, the grass is cut.

[bunny]

October,

I accept how you are. I felt like I had to defend how I am because it was being misrepresented (that was my reaction).

I don't have strength. I just decided some things. That's all. You've decided what you decided. I don't consider it negative.

bunny

[October]

October,

I accept how you are. I felt like I had to defend how I am because it was being misrepresented (that was my reaction).

bunny

This is where I went wrong.  I am sorry, Bunny.  I was not trying to say that what you said was wrong, I was only trying to say that if Butterfly could not follow what you said - which was actually 100% right - then she would not be alone.  It was meant as, the theory is brilliant, but not everyone can do it; for one me (yet.)  But the theory is great, and I am full of admiration for those who are more proficient than I am.

It took me a long time to learn how to say 'I can't do everything.'  

I hope this helps.  I am sorry if you felt I was invalidating what you said.  That was not my intention in any way.  I always value what you have to say, and your breadth of knowledge.

[Anonymous]

Yesterday I was cutting the grass and a helicopter was buzzing around nearby and then hovering, and I had to come inside, because it became dangerous to be there. But that is not a failure; I went and finished it afterwards. And I laughed at my funny ways; why should the helicopter want me; so I pretended I was a film star.  Perverse comfort is better than none at all.

October, you're already doing it.  Otherwise, you would never have gone back out and finished.  Whatever voices were saying the helicopter was after you, sent you inside.  While you were inside, something happened and your thinking changed.  The helicpoter left but if your thinking hadn't changed then you would have been too worried that it would return, so you wouldn't have gone back outside.

"Why should the helicopter want me?".  That logical thought calmed you and helped you to realize it was a bit funny to be thinking otherwise.  Then your imagination helped in a positive way by pretending you to be a film star.  It was the good thoughts that helped you go back outside.

Had you continued to think that the helipcopter was after you, soon they would be dropping a hook down to grab you, and then they would take you away to who knows where to do heaven knows what, they'll come back if you go out again etc.......you would never have gone back out that door to finish cutting the grass.

So.......I now fully disagree with the idea that you are embracing failure.    You are capable and do actually use your own logic and imagination to change your thinking when an unrealistic idea presents itself.   I disagree that you "can't" do it because you did do it, yesterday.

I do need to ask why you are being so mean to yourself because I want to know if you think it is a habit, if it is because it feels normal, if it is something that helps you in some way that I can't think of, or if it is something you're not sure of?

I want to know because I care.      

Plus.......I don't want to make an incorrect assumption.  

GFN

[October]

So.......I now fully disagree with the idea that you are embracing failure.    You are capable and do actually use your own logic and imagination to change your thinking when an unrealistic idea presents itself.   I disagree that you "can't" do it because you did do it, yesterday.

I do need to ask why you are being so mean to yourself because I want to know if you think it is a habit, if it is because it feels normal, if it is something that helps you in some way that I can't think of, or if it is something you're not sure of?

I want to know because I care.      

Plus.......I don't want to make an incorrect assumption.  

GFN

Thanks.  I think.    I am not aware that I am being mean to myself, although I am sure that is true somewhere; in some possible world.  If I say that my history is mostly one of emotional abuse and neglect, perhaps that explains it.  There was physical stuff too, but I only saw that; it didn't happen to me.  It happened because of me, to my brother.  But I do not know how it can be achieved that the person I used to be can be looked after any other way.  This is how it is done.     Sorry for the weird language.  Except that I do it better than before, because I do more for me than anyone used to.  Or perhaps more accurately, I do it for my daughter's mum.  Because she deserves better.

My first t asked if I was masochistic, and I laughed and said no, of course not.  I look after myself as well as I can, and perhaps better than is familiar.  It may still not be anything like how I look after other people, but it is not bad.  But I have to admit my limitations, because they are too real for me to ignore any more.    Where am I being mean?

It isn't voices telling me about being watched; it is the feeling of being watched that is difficult.  I think this comes from overzealous parenting, determined to make us feel guilty every moment of our lives.  It is working.    I didn't want the people in the helicopter to be watching me.  It felt dangerous.  This is why I stay in my house.  Nobody can see me.  Which translates to nobody can hurt me.  Being seen equates to being hurt.  

This is the problem I have in therapy all the time; they want to find  the words, but the words don't come until I start to think.  The feelings come first, and I struggle to control them.  Sometimes I can, and then I am ok.  Then I find the words to sort out what is going on, and to find a way back through logic and reasoning, and humour.  My own thoughts are that whatever I am tapping into is prelinguistic, and therefore has no words.  I am not sure if that is right, but it feels right.

My mum says that when we were small my older brother and I had our own language, that nobody but us could speak.  That makes me wonder what kind of kids (not twins) don't learn English from those around them, but have to make up their own language?  Those who are not spoken to, I would assume.   Which would make English a kind of second language, and one which I struggle with at times, because there are words missing.  

Other times the feelings are too strong, and eventually I have to back away for a while, and be on my own.  If I try to talk myself out of it in this kind of situation - or worse still if someone tries to stop me leaving - all that happens is that things escalate out of (my) control.  If I leave, I am still in control, albeit retreating.

That probably explains nothing.  I am not as I ought to be.  Bits are fine, but bits are not.     I am not being mean.   I am being who I am (at present) capable of being.

[Anonymous]

Hello Everyone!

Thanks for all the great postings.  Everyone who posted had alot of terrific and sound suggestions, even though I don't see them in the same light as some do.  Which makes for a lively and spirited interchange of ideas, doesn't it?  Nevertheless, the fact that you all posted means so much to me.

Longtire, your optimism of life after 30 is refreshing to me.

Kaz, to answer your question.  I'm still on speaking terms with my mother.  We talk to each other, but we don't communicate on the level of having an emotional connection.  Just thinking about it makes me so sad and feel a deep sense of lost of what could have been, but isn't.  I have no anomosity towards my mother, just sadness.

Bubble, what you said about setting boundaries for myself makes a lot of sense.  But in this case, I feel we see things in a different light.  I highly value your perspective.  In my case, I've set far too many boundaries in my life.  I find those boundaries tend to backfire on me.  It's a no win approach for me.  Boundaries spells self-limitation and failure for me.  Which creates a downward spiral of disappointments in myself.  Besides, when I feel like a failure, I lose the energy to fight the self-defeating thoughts in my head.  I'm tired of fighting it.  Allowing myself to wallow in self-pity from time to time helps me to release a lot of inner conflict and anxiety.  This is a way for me to embrace my humanity.  Which you had beautifully put.

October, I can see where you are coming from with your perspective on setting boundaries.  I tend to see it that way too.  The book you had recommended sounds very intriquing.  I totally agree with the author...we are not broken or damaged, although we may feel as if we are.  That is very much an oxymoron.  The statement has a lot truth upon examination and makes whole lot of sense.  I definitely embrace that outlook on the resilient power of the human spirit.  I can relate to you on struggling with the issues of invisibility.  Thank you for the kind words.  However, what you wrote a little later in this thread, kind of left me scratching my head a little.  I think it's b/c I'm fairly new to this site and don't know your story yet.  I'm confused on the part where you said you are have social phobia, but in the next paragraph, you said you are a gregarious person.  And you like to be with ppl.  What am I not understanding?

Mountain climbing is definitely rigorous (speaking from experience).  I like to occasionally look down, just so I can assess my level of progress.  For me, looking back can be a way to encourage myself to move forward, b/c I can see how much i've progress so far.

Sleepyhead, I like your attitude about where you are in life in terms of accomplishments, etc.  I could tell that you are kind to yourself.  That's encouraging to me.  Now, I don't feel so alone anymore.  Even though I know there are many ppl in my situation.  It makes things more real to hear it from someone else.  I think you had a good point about what you said about not seeing the screwups around you.

Mum, I think you have a good point about hard learning is usually good learning.  But does ambitiously learning something new the wrong way bring about good results??  That's what I learned about myself.  I recently realized that all my life I've used an ineffective approach.  Despite all the effort I made to progress, I still reached a dead end.  I became very frustrated and disappointed in myself which led to depression b/c I tried so hard, but I still find myself stuck in a rut.  Why, b/c I was trying to put a square peg in a round hole.  The effort was there, but the technique was wrong.  Now, I'm learning to use a different approach.  Thanks for the uplifting thought on age.  When it comes to age, there's truth in the statement: if you don't mind, then it don't matter.

Guest from afar, thanks for your perspective on the whole idea about making mistakes.  What you said reminds me not to take life too seriously.  We sure do need to make mistakes, day after day.  Thanks for the reminder.

Mudpup, thanks for helping me with the technical stuff on this website.  I tried it and it worked.  But, I'm sticking to this old fashion way of doing things for now.  You know what...what you said about the Buddhist outlook on mountains as it relates to us climbing it makes sense after I think about it for awhile.  Focusing our effort in climbing a mountain does require us to expend a lot of energy.  And we spend no time just simply enjoying and appreciating the beauty and magnificence of the mountain.  But walking around the mountain allows us to really soak in the splendor of a mountain.  Buddhist was a really wise old soul.

Joey, Welcome!  Thanks for your input.

Okay, that's it for now.  But, I hope to get to know all of you more as time allows.  I apologize for being slow in my reply.  My schoolwork does that to me sometimes.

Butterfly

[October]

I'm confused on the part where you said you are have social phobia, but in the next paragraph, you said you are a gregarious person.  And you like to be with ppl.  What am I not understanding?

Butterfly

At last something I can answer!  

Compare it with someone with a broken leg, who says that they love running.  You would immediately know what they meant, even though it is clear that they are immobilised for the present.

Ptsd is an injury to the emotions.  It doesn't mean that you are the injury, or that there is anything organically wrong with you; you are the person you are meant to be, and who you can be again.  But until the injury heals there are limitations to functioning that have to be taken into account.  Once a broken leg is set you could in theory start running on it again, but you would be daft if you did.  It has to heal first, and grow stronger, or else you do more harm to it.

So I have recognised the injury, found a doctor, and am presently both setting the leg and healing the hurt.  It will never be the way it was before, but it will be functional, and in some ways stronger than it was.

I hope this helps.  Glad to see you again, Butterfly.

[Anonymous]

Hi everyone:

Hello again October:

If you find yourself saying something daft, then just think to yourself, that is not like me. After all, if you said daft things all the time, and were truly daft, you would never notice, would you? So that means that you are a bright person, who sometimes says silly things. As do we all.

What I mean by being mean to yourself is that you have this kind advice for Butterfly, (which I totally agree with you and think it is a helpful way to deal with putting ourselves down, which we all do sometimes, I'm sure) but........at the same time......for yourself.......you seem to be considering this way of dealing with the same type of thoughts as denial, pretending to sort yourself out when you're not sorted, as some failed way of dealing with the negative thinking????

As you said....in a way.....you're taking better care of Butterfly than you are of yourself.

I agree with what you said to Butterfly and so I am stealing your wise words and saying them to you now:

You are not the problem.  You are the solution.

I understand that it feels better to hide sometimes, that it seems safer to be invisible.  I'm not interested in criticizing you or adding to your discomfort.  It's ok to do that when you feel like it and I don't consider it to be damage (not that what I think matters here anyway, but just in case it might seem like that's what I mean to insinuate.  It isn't).

I just noticed that you were telling Butterfly to do what seems like you are not allowing yourself to do for yourself.

There is a chance that if you spend some time making positive suggestions to yourself.....that it could help you.  That's all.

Right now the feelings come first and then the thoughts.
You could start a new trend by reversing that order a little, not because you, or I, or anyone else thinks there's something wrong with that, but to add to and enhance your life.  If you think first.....it might be possible to stop the feelings that are keeping you inside.  You might find yourself gaining confidence and doing things you enjoy, more often, or taking steps that you never thought you would.  This would be good for you.  

The worst thing that could happen would be that you might waste a little time relaxing and saying good stuff to yourself.  Being kind to yourself in that way would really only be like embracing the bits that feel like they need embracing and giving them a hug and then adding a little encouragement to boot.

I want to encourage you October, not put you down in any way.  I'm so sorry for everything you've suffered as a child and as an adult.  I want your suffering to end.

((((((((((((October))))))))))

GFN

[Anonymous]

Hi Butterfly,
Actually I think it was somebody else who was talking about the Buddha climbing the mountain. Other's here can tell you I tend to quote Jesus, as I believe he IS the mountain.

October,
Your PTSD and social phobia sound very exhausting emotionally. Are they?
If you want to speak about it, how was your brother abused because of you? It sounded like you were blaming yourself for his abuse by someone else. Did I misunderstand?
I think you have a healthy attitude about where you are, how you got there and where you want to be. And I think your posts are beautifuly written considering English is your 'second language'.

mudpup

[October]

I want to encourage you October, not put you down in any way.  I'm so sorry for everything you've suffered as a child and as an adult.  I want your suffering to end.

((((((((((((October))))))))))

GFN

Thanks GFN.  I will try to read your post over and try to find a way to reach what it says.  Thanks.

Saw my t today.  That helps a lot, but leaves me exhausted, so not writing much at the moment.

[October]

Your PTSD and social phobia sound very exhausting emotionally. Are they?
If you want to speak about it, how was your brother abused because of you? It sounded like you were blaming yourself for his abuse by someone else. Did I misunderstand?

Yes, I am often exhausted just from the effort of staying alive.  I wake up exhausted, and then it gets worse all day.      I take St John's Wort if things are really bad, and that takes the edge off.    

My mum used to get angry with my older brother when we had the normal kind of rough and tumble games, say if he made me cry by pulling my hair or something - like kids do - she used sometimes to lose her temper and go for him.  He would panic and run upstairs, and she would follow, taking off her slipper on the way, and shouting at him.  Then lots of shouting, and lots of hitting, and me downstairs, listening to it, and just complete confusion and short circuits of understanding everywhere.  He would not cry for a long time, then eventually she would make him cry, and then carry on hitting just for the hell of it.  This goes right back.  I don't know how far.  Certainly before my younger brother arrived, when OB and I were 7 and 5 resp.  She hit YB as well, but never in this violent temper way.  

My brother didn't blame me, I am glad to say.  At the time he and I both knew it was something wrong in mum.  Dad was never there, and when we told him he did nothing to stop it.  It happened a lot.  She used to say not to laugh too much, or we would end up crying.  She made sure of that.     The last time was when my brother was about 16, and after she hit him a couple of times he took the slipper out of her hand and hit her back again, and she screeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmeddddddddddd!!!          

She never did it again after that, strangely enough.

He has forgotten that this ever happened.  I haven't.  This is one of the things dad says I am supposed not to think about, because I have to remember the good times.  Which means that he remembers too.  

OB now hits his three kids in the same way.  No slipper, though.  He uses his hands.  

[Anonymous]

October,

My brother didn't blame me, I am glad to say.

I'm not trying to be a pain or your surrogate therapist but I was just wondering if you blame yourself for his abuse. It kind of sounded like it in your original post. Maybe you were just saying your normal childhood crying was why you were 'responsible', so to speak, for his spankings.
No need to respond if you're exhausted.
Relax and have a little marmite on a pickle or whatever it is you put it on.  

mudpuppy

[October]

I was just wondering if you blame yourself for his abuse.

Who knows?  Maybe.  If I had not been there it would not have happened.  

Maybe more important would be to work out who Nmum blames for it.  Is it OB for picking on me, or me for being there and getting his attention and having fun with him?  That might be a more productive route to follow.  Nmum jealous of daughter, therefore tries to sabotage sibling relationship by beating up the person daughter is closest to, and most fond of in the world, in (failed) attempt to destroy the trust and closeness.  OB was my carer/attachment figure, just as I was the same for YB, and she resented that too.  

I think she resented the competiton at every level going.  So no, it is not my fault, but I am there, causing the problem, just by existing.