people with mood disorders exceptionally susceptible?

[dogbit]

Or is it because men married to Ns suffer in silence or are too ashamed to talk about it?


I think this comes the closest.  From what I have read mostly on other forums, men are ashamed when they find out their bride is the bride from Hell.  They'll say things like "how could I admit to anyone she hits me and I can't hit her back because she's a woman?"  And I think women are cut a bit more slack when they act irrationally...like it's just hormonal stuff.  Men are held to a higher standard so when they act out of the realm of acceptable, it is noted much more quickly.  Women are also brought up to be more verbal than men so they will talk sooner about the bad stuff.    Men who have custody issues will talk more freely since they are concerned about their kids.  The others probably just go away.  I'm in my 50's so there is a younger generation out there that might have a different insight.  I know my father and my father-in-law just never talked about it period.   Which was not good.  I wish my father had talked about it and then I could have known it was not my fault...you know how kids always think when bad things happen in the family, it's their fault     I'm glad you're talking about it!  

[Anonymous]

Hi Write,

I'm really sorry I hijacked your thread.
After I posted my questions about why there aren't more men here I realized I probably should have started a new thread. At the time it just seemed like a natural outgrowth of your question.
Sorry.


mudpuppy

[New Day]

Hi write,
I agree with everything that has been said about the vulnerability quotient and the fact that a N finds that and co-dependence a winning combination in order to get the adoration and adulation they require.  

My exN had an affair that I found out about way after the fact.  He told me himself the woman was bipolar, and said she was not the strongest type. maybe a B (am not familiar with the types).   When all hell broke loose and he was then onto another affair that he flaunted to me, I told him that until he met me, it seemed that all of his former gf's had some weakness that seemed to attract him, and then, ultimately wear him down or repel him.  I did not know a thing about Nism at that time.  I told him that he seemed to constantly think that someone was the perfect person for him but that person always had something wrong with her, so it was as though he would get into a relationship with them deliberately only to abandon them when they got too needy. Like he set it up that way from the beginning.  Again,  these were my perceptions, I had never read one book, article or word about Nism.

He admitted that I was right.   He told me when we met that he'd never known anyone like me. I thought he was being overly romantic and a bit of a fake.  But he insisted.  I can see now he meant it.  I did not fit the template or the model he had always used.  He had no idea what to make of me.   I actually wanted him to BE SOMEONE so when he kept mirroring me, I found it frustrating and didn't understand it.  BE YOURSELF, I would say.  I'll be me, you be YOU.  

I do not mean to offend anyone by what I have said.  The difference between a N going for a vulnerable person and a "normal" person being attracted to a vulnerable person is that a normal person likes that person for who they really are; a N is attracted to that person because that person will need them and build them up and give them the adoration.  There is nothing wrong with being vulnerable!   There is something wrong with the person who takes advantage of a vulnerable person.  

My exN was in therapy for a number of years.  You will love this, but I completely and truly believe that he USED his knowledge of therapy, not what he got out of it, to attract vulnerable women.   It made him look like this enlightened, vulnerable guy who was trying to better himself ... BARF.   He used it to make him look like a sensitive guy.  I kid you not.  He knew how to talk about his feelings b/c he learned to do so in therapy, but from what I can see, he was in therapy for an intellectual exercise that he went on to use to seek out prey.  
To be honest, I thought he had a lousy therapist!!!!!
 
New Day

[Brigid]

New Day,

To be honest, I thought he had a lousy therapist!!!!!

IMO any therapist who continues to treat a N with no results, has to be lousy.  For the most part a NPD will stop seeing a therapist who is actually trying to deal with their issues.  

My STBXNH had seen a therapist about 15 years ago when he first determined that he was ADHD (after our son was diagnosed).  He saw the guy for maybe a year then stopped.  He started back again with the same guy when I realized something was not right with him (before finding out about the affair, etc.) and I convinced him that he needed to talk to someone.  

This therapist does not treat his internal issues, but deals with the external by convincing him to do things that make him feel good and recommended a bunch of books to read.  I can't believe he actually pays for this, but like your xN, it probably makes him look like a guy who really cares about himself to the women he wants to attract.  I don't know what his married girlfriend thinks (nor do I care), but its my understanding that she is also in therapy for her own set of issues, so I guess they are a well-matched set and maybe some day she'll be stupid enough to leave her husband for him.

I think it goes without saying that he has found another vulnerable victim to prey upon and she hasn't got a clue what she's in for.  Whatever it is, she surely deserves it.  

Brigid

[d's mom]

There is something wrong with the person who takes advantage of a vulnerable person.

totally agree with that!

this is kind of late but been wanting to add this..... these 'vulnerabilities' dont actually have to be weaknesses, or what people might look at as 'negative' personality traits....

exploitable vulnerabilities also include 'positive' traits... like kindness - generosity - wanting to give people the 'benefit of the doubt' - being a humanitarian - unwillingness to be rude - wanting to help others.

predators will seek -anything- to exploit, these can be perfectly 'positive' traits. some predators (like cult recruiters) are actually trained to evaluate people, and locate which particular exploitable qualities they have, often idealism or other perfectly acceptable things.. in cults they do not want people with obvious mental illnesses (no offense, i am bipolar myself) or what other people would name as 'weaknesses' becuase those people will not work for the cult, and be high-functioning as they want. but they are still very successful at manipulating their targets nonetheless.

more 'self taught' manipulators - like the ones talked about here a lot - seem to just have a knack for it.... or they use things like knowlege of therapy to get a 'one up'. someone just sent me an interesting site about 'psychopaths' and sociopaths and it has some interesting insights on why people with  no conscience and people who are willing to lie without remorse, have 'the benefit' in personal interactions. the benefit  goes naturally toward the liar and away from the honest person. its an intersting dynamic.


http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm

d's mom

[Stormchild Guesting]

Thanks for the link! I've been trying to find Hare's psychopathy checklist for more than a year. Bless you, there it was.

[d's mom]

Thanks for the link! I've been trying to find Hare's psychopathy checklist for more than a year.

wow, great..  its so gratifying when things turn out useful somehow.

[write]

he was in therapy for an intellectual exercise that he went on to use to seek out prey.

the latest n-man in my life treated everything like this- even when I told him I was getting a puppy he said, 'a dog's a great social ice-breaker'...everything has to be useful to be valued.

[Bliz]

Responding to Stormchild's comment that she thinks many men actually hate women.  I am starting to wonder this too.  Because my family is heavily male dominated as is my occupation and office, I often hear men, you would think would know better, talking about women as bitches, etc.

Sometimes it is guys you would least expect.  Is this some kind of make bonding ritual I missed?  I also see them occcassionally talk very dismissive to their wives. It has made me wonder if the majority of men deep down inside hate women and why?  Maybe this is an age old question.  Of course they may think deep down I hate men, which I dont think I do.  I am often disappointed by thier behavior, though.

[New Day]

First, d's mom, thanks for the link.   Quite a bit to digest, but as an overall essay, that is the best piece I have ever seen.  Thanks!

the latest n-man in my life treated everything like this- even when I told him I was getting a puppy he said, 'a dog's a great social ice-breaker'...everything has to be useful to be valued.

I so agree, this is a good observation.  Sure, many of us would think or say something like this once in a while, but with a N, it's ALL ABOUT using and appearances and how they can use something to make themselves look good.  It's never about pure feelings.  Even in the essay from that url it stated that these people have absolutely no altruism.   Funny, but my exN referred to the OW (now his wife) as doing something that had to do with a "charity"  BARF.  She belongs to a NON-PROFIT organization that has a cultural benefit, but it is NOT a CHARITY!!    No one needy is getting any benefit from what this organization does!!  BUT to my exN, he refers to it as a charity.  Inflated, distorted, self-important.  uggghhhh.   Man, when he said this, I had all I could do .... (bleeding heart here, mind you .... wink!)

Over the time my exN was in therapy, I often wondered why the heck he went when it seemed to make absolutely no difference.  I thought he went out of "habit" , part of a routine, and strangely enough, to have one "over on me"  like he held it over me that he went some place to talk to someone about his problems that he could not talk about with me.  I can't explain the feeling, but it made me very uncomfortable, like I said, like he was "using" therapy as a means to another end.  As the essay points out, everything is a means to an end for a N.  

Insofar as men hating women ... I think many men have contempt for women.  I think they are socially conditioned, to this day, to feel superior to women and since we are stronger and more self sufficient than ever, many men do not know how to put that into context.   So you really have to put "wiring" (as Brigid said in an earlier post) into account because it simply cannot be entirely social conditioning.

Have a good Saturday, hopefully a peaceful one.
New Day

[Brigid]

Anna,
Thank you for that link.  I think I need to go back and read it again, as last night I read it after a couple of glasses of wine and probably missed some salient points.   But I could certainly see my H in almost every one of the descriptors.

Brigid

[Anonymous]

Hey Bliz,

Responding to Stormchild's comment that she thinks many men actually hate women. I am starting to wonder this too.

When I said all men are jerks, you seemed shocked or at least dismissive.
It seems you're coming around to my way of thinking.
I was being hyperbolic. Not all men are jerks. But I believe a large majority are.
And part of that 'jerkness' comes out as contempt for women. This contempt is magnified and reinforced in groups. Like Stormy's boyfriend, who was sweet alone, but was pulled away by a pack of feral men and turned into one of them.
Let me translate this phrase, "women; you can't live with 'em, you can't live without 'em"
Many women think that means that men think women are very different than they are and sometimes its hard for men to understand women even though they actually love them terribly.
What it actually means is, at its very essence is "women; why can't they just give us sex, and then go away while we scratch our bellies and run them down, until we want sex again?"
Most men are selfish slime balls who deep down have contempt for everything including themselves. They don't just hate women, they hate everything. You guys notice the hate towards women cause its directed at you. In addition most men are fairly infantile, but then I guess you knew that already.
Maybe its related to a fear of death? Don't know, I'm not one of the haters, thanks to God.
I'll leave it to you guys to disclose the ratio of women who are hateful users. It appears on the surface to be lower than in men. But I'm not in the club and don't know the secret handshake to get all the details.  

mudpup

[bunny as guest]

I'm going out on a limb here: Men don't hate women. Some men are fearful, terrified, and ambivalent about women. And they have behavior problems. An equal number of women have the same negative feelings about men!  My philosophy is to avoid the tape of "men hate women" because it's not helpful or even realistic. If the men in my life hate women, then I look at my own issues with submission, tolerating bad behavior, putting up with crap, and paradoxically, how I get along with other women? I found that I had even worse problems in that area. It's not just about men. Sometimes it's about autonomy and confidence with both sexes. But it's easier to blame the opposite sex. When I looked realistically/honestly at the men I encountered on a daily basis, most of them are perfectly respectful and nice to women! We tend to take these men for granted and put all the focus on the bad apples. Okay, stepping off the soapbox...

bunny

[Stormchild Guesting]

based on the things I overheard from pals who talked freely in front of me, an awful lot of men - not all of them, mind you, but a lot -

really dislike women, waaay down deep.

So. If the one they end up with is the kind of screaming nutbar I had to growl at in the office, doesn't this just confirm them in that dislike? and give them something to p*ss & moan about to their pals at Unhappy Hour? And.... help them justify cheating, etc.?

Believe me, I saw quite a bit of that mindset before I was even 30.

Men who like women, and are comfortable talking with them as people, and can actually discuss both the thoughts and the feelings happening under their own skins without doubting themselves in some basic way, are sadly somewhat rare compared to these other fellows.

I think we're incredibly lucky to have two of you on board, mud & long. And I know we are grateful as all getout.

Hi guys, I didn't ever use the word "hate", and what I did say was a lot more complex than that. I thought I'd just put it here again as kind of a reality check.

I don't hate men, either; and I have just as much astonished contempt for women who run in packs and slander their "good providers" behind their backs, too.

Which I guess makes me an Equal Opportunity Scorner, anyway      

[Anonymous]

Sorry guys, I tended toward a little hyperbole here with the hate stuff...............bbbbbutttttttt.........

I have sat in many a group of men with no women around and I don't think most women realize the disrespect many men hold for women. Like Bliz said, men you wouldn't expect it from. Or how many may not hate women, but would cheat on their wives if they could get away with it and/or who ridicule them. Sometimes its said with a smile sometimes not.
They don't talk like that with women around. So I guess the question is, When are they telling the truth?

That being said, I have known a lot of men (maybe not most) who 'hate' women however you want to define it. It is not a murderous type of hate, but still a real loathing of women. Most of them have been through at least one divorce or bad breakups and most had a lot of anger, and they direct it from the ones who damaged them to women in general.

I think there's more than you guys realize.
Hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it.

mudpup