people with mood disorders exceptionally susceptible?

[Anonymous]

I have sat in many a group of men with no women around and I don't think most women realize the disrespect many men hold for women. Like Bliz said, men you wouldn't expect it from. Or how many may not hate women, but would cheat on their wives if they could get away with it and/or who ridicule them. Sometimes its said with a smile sometimes not.
They don't talk like that with women around. So I guess the question is, When are they telling the truth?

Where are these people? [Not at church, I hope.] I agree that some men who've had bad divorces, etc., blame all women and are woman-haters. But I think they were that way BEFORE the divorce. It was probably one of the reasons their marriage went south. I think anyone who blames their spouse for all sorts of crap, then extends it to the entire gender, is far too bitter. I reiterate that most men are not like this. Most men are good people. That's been my experience once I became open to male energy and saw what men are all about. P.S. When I do meet a woman hater, their vibe is very obvious. Maybe some women are in denial about it, conditioned to it, or something.


bunny

[Stormchild]

I think it's likely that many people, whether male or female, simply aren't capable of relating to others as equals. They have to be 'one up' all the time, which means whoever they're with always has to be 'one down'. If they don't deliberately select someone 'inferior', they denigrate and belittle and abuse them to cut them down.

Doesn't matter where. At work, at home. With 'friends', with family.

This would result in the kind of destructive attitude that I'm talking about.

Very sad, to see either a man or a woman whose primary attitude towards their supposed life partner is purely and simply contempt, who expresses this contempt behind their "loved one's" back to members of the same sex, thus being permanently treacherous to the one person they are supposed to be closest to... and who won't lift a finger to address any of the problems this attitude cannot help but cause.

Sadder still, to watch a kid become corrupted by it.

I watched some of my male friends turn from really sweet guys into knuckle-dragging Neanderthal toads, between seventh and tenth grade. And some of my female friends turned from beautiful little girls into venomous gold-digging b**ches who basically dated boys purely and simply to get things from them (jewelry, meals, evenings out). It was like a nightmare, except that I was awake.

[Brigid]

Mudbrother,

Let me translate this phrase, "women; you can't live with 'em, you can't live without 'em"
Many women think that means that men think women are very different than they are and sometimes its hard for men to understand women even though they actually love them terribly.
What it actually means is, at its very essence is "women; why can't they just give us sex, and then go away while we scratch our bellies and run them down, until we want sex again?"

If this is true, I may as well head to my attic and lock myself in for the duration, because I don't have much to look forward to.  

Obviously, I am not around when men are talking amongst themselves, but I shudder to think they are so shallow as to only have sex and their disdain of women to discuss.  What about their golf shots, Monday night football, and the hot new chick in accounting (oh yea, that goes back to sex.   ).  And, of course, there are the latest jokes they've heard.

Not to change the subject, but am I the only one who has ever noticed that men score points with other men when the have a good joke to share and women score points with other women when they have a good recipe to share?  A generalization, but mostly true I think.

Sorry, I digressed.  I think there are opposite sex haters on both sides, stemming from that individual's relationships with mom/dad and dating relationships and/or marriage.  IMO, women talk just as much (if not more) about sex than men do.  Oftentimes, it is about how much they don't enjoy it (never my problem) and are trying to avoid it than when they can get some, but it is discussed nonetheless.

I think a good way to judge a man is how he treats and interacts with his mother.  That's harder at my age as many of their mothers have passed away, but you can also look at sisters, wives of friends, etc.  We can't control how people behave when not in our presence, but I think good therapy has given me much more insight into personalities and the ability to judge them.

I have faith that most men are not jerks, but just look at things differently than we ladies do.

Brigid

[dogbit]

Most of them have been through at least one divorce or bad breakups and most had a lot of anger, and they direct it from the ones who damaged them to women in general.


Mudpup!  What level of intelligence do these anecdotal guys have.  Hopefully it is above room temperature.  Sorry, I am admittedly being sarcastic.   But, clearly, they have not thought this one through and I'll have to take your word for it that they exist.  Because of the direction my career took me, I was almost always the only "girl".  I had great problems with men and great friendships with men.  I think the kind of men you are talking about are safely sequestered in the corner of a cheap bar.  I would like to think they are in the minority.  I just don't think it is that simple.  Or maybe I just don't want to believe it?  I can't believe this kind of neanderthal thinking still exists.  Tell me it ain't so!!!!  And for the flip side....my mother hated women!  Maybe the common denominator is they just love themselves so much.  Bittles (and, yes.  I have not had a good day today so am a bit prickly)

[Harumph]

I think a good way to judge a man is how he treats and interacts with his mother.

I thought I would step in on this one That applies except in cases when the mother is a narcissist.

Most people wouldn't be able to spot the dynamic - so if your mother is a narcissist where does that leave you?

Most would leave you alone, as having no relationship with your mother, for acceptable reasons as we all know - would set a normal persons alarm bells ringing

For me, with extreme issues of trust based around mother, I had to find someone who would understand.

When my mother first got my partner with her alone she attempted to get my partner to become her confidant. ie so that my partner would create a bond with her (my n mother) over and above the bond that we shared as partners.
She had always done this, but expressing it to my partner beforehand, it seemed like I was paranoid and abnormal.....which is why it is so hard to express these kinds of things in the first place. most don't get it.

Fortunately my partner saw what my mother was trying to do and told me about what she said etc (all expected from me but still hurtful)

that was one of the things that helped me give my trust to my partner completely and also give me the strength to confront my mother.

the confrontation went all wrong , as I was successfully goaded into losing my temper (so she could say how bad i was to everyone without lying (in her eyes) she could give an accurate 'slant' to what happened and be belived. she never mentions the part of her goading me to anger in the re-telling of the tale.
But - She's out of my life, and that's a situation that will not change.
Her choice - cut people out by punishment for speaking up - (what a way to teach children- i have younger siblings who obvioulsy know say anything that is on your mind that mother doesn't like and she will cut you out)
so her choice in the first instance, but now the choice is mine.

she had her chance and she blew it. she just didn't know that it was her last one.

oops. rambled on a bit sorry if I hijacked just wanted to share my thoughts on Brigid's comment.

[Bliz]

Do most men deep down inside hate, (or at least severely dislike) women?  Didnt realize what a can of worms this would become.  I am only basing it on my experiecne as a) only female sibling, b) woman in a male dominated field, c) involved as only woman on a community board.

I heard that before I did the community thing it was quite popular to tell horribly dirty jokes behind closed doors.  THe guy that supposedly used to tell them has alwasy hated my intrusion and I was told called me a c--t and other locker room things behind my back.

You know the family story.  Men always kowtowed to and favored yet still they speak and act derisively and disrepectfully towards women.

Personally I think it is the fear of losing control.  Men know how important we are to their health and well being and hate that hold over them.  Unfortuantley that doesnt work with brothers and I have never been very good at using my feminine wiles.

I think it is a reason why I find it so hard to find good male companionship.  My health standards are high so that rules out alot of partiers and burners.  There has to be some brain in there which rules out some more and then there is the spark and the "non typical" type male I prefer.  I have actually built a pretty full life without a male companion but it would sure make the journey more fun.

[Brigid]

Harumph,

Quote:
I think a good way to judge a man is how he treats and interacts with his mother.


I thought I would step in on this one Smile That applies except in cases when the mother is a narcissist.

Most people wouldn't be able to spot the dynamic - so if your mother is a narcissist where does that leave you?

I guess I should have qualified this with "assuming they are both healthy individuals."  Maybe a better determining quality at my age would be how they treat and interact with their children (as I choose to date only men with children).

Thanks for pointing that out.

Brigid

[sleepyhead]

Hi all! I don't know if most men dislike women (I hope not!), but I do believe that the vast majority of men believe themselves to be superior to women. I have known very nice, sweet and friendly men who honestly believed that men are more logical than women! And these are men that would see it as a given to help with housework/change nappies etc. They "had heard" this and immediately assumed that it was fact, rather than checking if there was logic or any factual support behind this statement. (very logical and rational ) The good news is that with my logical powers I have managed to make them see that this is not so. But it was reeaaally scary though...people who I thought were my friends somehow had this idea that I was not quite as smart as them... For no reason other than my sex.

But on the whole I think that there are plenty of good men out there, I have a lot of male friends who really respect women. Some men would like us to believe that all men are like them (bad), so that we won't go looking for another man. (Like the men who say that all men are unfaithful, just because they are.) This is of course incredibly insulting to the men who aren't like that, but Nmen often have this idea that "if I'm like this, then all other men must be too".

Having said that, a lot of women think they are superior to men, being more sensitive and more moral, when in fact idiots comes in all shapes, colours and sexes. My Nmother says that all men are horrible but she always takes a man's side, even against her daughters, and thinks that infidelity is a given with men, something every woman needs to put up with and not a reason to split up.  

[Bliz]

Maybe it is more that many men feel superior to women.  That has been particularly difficult for  me since I did well in school and at least at one time was considered fairly smart.  

It has been my experience that many men are then threatened by you and will find other ways to bring you down in certain siutaitons.  Certainly true for my father and brothers and to some extrent other men I deal with in sutuations of power.   Unfortunately even when I know the attaqcks are based on their insecurities it still is frustrating, annoying, at times shaming etc.

I posted on another thread awhile back that I felt it harmed my femininity as I thought I had to act more masculine in these circumstances.  I have learned that is not true but still a struggle.  What was the women's liberation movement really all about if we never actually made strides to be more equal. I wonder about this.  I think the inequality went mroe "underground".  Comments?

[mudpuppy]

I'll try and refine what I said about men tomorrow. Haven't got time today.

Brigid its not as bad as you think.
I didn't have time to read all the posts but i can say it was Bliz who started it.    
Just kidding Bliz.

And bunny, you'd be surprised how many are at church.

mud

[Bliz]

Hey, I dont mind starting it.  

So many of the discussions I have had here with people has really gotten to the core of my own personal situation.  Debating "woman as inferior species", "being feminine yet centered and powerful," "dealing with nars in the family and business in general", it has all been great for my self esteem to get these things out. It is so much easier to attempt a healthy solition knowing I am not alone.  I have kudoes, only, for this board.

[Stormchild Guesting]

This has been great, and I'm not being sarcastic. Everyone who is posting has been really honest and direct about what they think and what experiences have formed or influenced their opinions. We 're not in 100% agreement - we're doing something better than that - we are learning from each other, nonjudgmentally, affirmingly.

'Scuse me, just was scanning the thread and realized this, and it really put a lump in my throat.

Sleepyhead, thank God you're back, I was starting to get really worried about you, how are you doing?

[sleepyhead]

Sleepyhead, thank God you're back, I was starting to get really worried about you, how are you doing?

Hi, Stormy, not to worry. I thought I would take a break and just focus on being pregnant for a while. And since my fiance hasn't been working and several of our friends have made sure to visit before we go back home (in two weeks), and with organising the move, I've been kind of busy. It's a pain being away for this long though, because there is so much to catch up with when you come back ! Anyway, glad to know you're glad I'm back! It's good to be back and see that you're all still here.

[mudpuppy]

Hi everyone,

Just thought I'd jump back in.
I agree that a minority of men 'hate' women in the sense that word is usually used. I used a poor choice of words in my original post.
It is also a minority of men who, maybe don't rise to the level of hating, but just dislike women as a sex.
There is also a minority of men who don't really think of women as much more than an object rather than a person.
A very significant minority of men, maybe even a majority think women are inferior to men either emotionally or intellectually.
All these groups overlap and they all approach women, as a group, with an unhealthy attitude. Whether it comes under the title of disdain or varyng degrees of contempt is up to the eye of the beholder.
And the men who 'merely' think men are superior to women may not be as clearly contemptuous of women as the other groups but they are the group most likely to hide their disdain and the group most likely to be of the two faced variety; friendly and sweet around women and contemptuous behind their backs. They're also the largest subgroup.
I have no idea what the total percentage is of men with all or some of these attitudes, but I am certain it is a majority.
It certainly has been for the men I have known over the years.
The good news is, that leaves the rest of us (35-45%, who knows) that don't feel that way. I'm not claiming to be the lone, wunnerful, wunnerful man in existence. Thirty or forty% is still millions and millions of men.
And that still leaves room for me to be a jerk in any number of other ways.  
To paraphrase Martin Luther King, People should be judged by the content of their character, not the soft, silky, Oil of Olay smoothness of their skin.  In my experience that usually doesn't happen when a man meets a woman.

The church thing. In medium sized and larger churches it is a well known problem that many single men are there for the sole purpose of finding a 'good' woman. (Maybe even some of the married men.   ) There are a lot of men who enjoy watching lap dancers and porn stars in their leisure time but there aren't a whole lot who want to marry one.  
Single women also have a problem in church in that they are often seen (usually incorrectly) as a threat to the married women.
I'd guess that single women are harrassed in church about equally between men and women.
Churches are just made up of flawed people like any other instititution and at most churches probably a minority of the people in them are truly trying to live by Christ's standards. Sad but true.

As far as the men I described as having IQs in the room temperature range, that is entirely possible. But thats another can of worms altogether.  

I have to confess it is a novel experience for me to be told by a group of women that men aren't as bad as I say they are.   Usually its either "amen brother" or I start slinking down in my chair cause the war stories start flying back and forth and I'm afraid the natives might get a tad restless having one of the brethren in their midst.

At that point I usually slide out the back door and find a male friend to commiserate with, about how irrational and silly women are (as we scratch our bellies).     Just a joshin'.

mudpup

[October]

Or is it because men married to Ns suffer in silence or are too ashamed to talk about it?

 I wish my father had talked about it and then I could have known it was not my fault...you know how kids always think when bad things happen in the family, it's their fault     I'm glad you're talking about it!  

My mum is N, and therefore my dad counts as one of the 'suffering in silence' types.  Except he didn't.  He complained to me and my brother when we were growing up, and used us for emotional support in a way that I now know is not appropriate, but at the time felt like being treated as an ally or equal to dad.  From around 7 or so.  Maybe younger.  He let us stay up to watch horror films too, which gave  me nightmares, but I didn't dare tell anyone I had nightmares, because that would have made me silly.

Dad taught me that mum is 'highly strung', by which he meant that she shows her emotions too easily.  The message for me as a girl was to avoid emotional expression at all costs, or else I would end up insane like mum.  I am not sure what my brother learned, but we both learned to despise female or feminine things, I think.  Or perhaps just to despise our mum.
   

At one point my mum was in hospital for something or other - her back I think it was.  Ns make lousy patients, especially Nnurses (like mum) or doctors.  I am not sure what exactly happened, but dad told me that at one point the doctors were very worried about my mum's behaviour, and wanted to assess her further.  They asked dad if she was ever like that at home.  He lied and said no, he had never seen that from her before, and that at home she was perfectly fine.  So they let her come home, and no assessment was done.  Dad was proud of that.  Or at least, I think he thought he had done the right thing, but he was not really sure.

All of which means that in my opinion, people with N mothers sometimes marry Ns in turn, and although they are unhappy, and know somehow that something is not right, they never quite break out of the spell enough to find out what it is.  Very sad really.

I do not know if my SIL is N or not.  But she is not maternal, if you know what I mean by that.  If the boys need comfort they go to my brother, not their mum.  When they hurt themselves she laughs and says they won't do that again.  I don't dislike her, but she is not attuned to the boys, if that makes any sense.

Relating to the other side of this thread, I believe that my dad does despise women, and regards them with anger and suspicion.  He had a domineering (N?)mother, and then married my Nmum.  Qualities which he would regard as acceptable and male, are those which you find in me.  Qualities which are female, and not so acceptable in me, you find in my daughter, and I am very pleased to see them in her.  But I am some kind of psuedo boy myself.  Not masculine exactly, but kind of asexual in dress and behaviour.  

I don't want to say any more about me, because it gets too personal, but the female side of me is to be tolerated but not nurtured.  In my daughter, the whole of who she is is nurtured.  Well, it is by me, anyway.  But again, my dad makes fun of her makeup etc.  The difference is, she does not wilt in the face of such comments, as I used to; she answers back, in a nice assertive way, and tells him he is talking nonsense.

I think a lot of men do fear women, and that fear turns into aggression of one kind or another.  But there are also some lovely men out there, who do not.