people with mood disorders exceptionally susceptible?

[write]

I'm wondering how many people here have had depression or bipolar or other mental health symptoms, and when they ran into n's those people seemed like the insight and answer to all their prayers?

I know for me ( living with bipolar 1 ) I ATTRACT n's...3 times in a row, each different from the other.
Each did less damage because I was wiser to narcissism.
But~ anyone got any explanations for what's happening in this pattern of relating???

[Anonymous]

Hiya Write:

I have absolutely no expertise in this area but I have recently been wondering something....

What if.......it's really that the N people are just intensely keen about locating the vunerable?  I mean, rather than certain susceptable people being attracted to N's, what if..it's the N's who are just wizzards at finding people who will comply with their needs?

In that case....then maybe the solution is to work on really not being a target?  In other words, ridding depression, taking meds for Bipolar, doing therapy, working on improving our vision of self/self worth, getting involved in activities that add joy to our lives, including satisfying work, joining social groups that give us pleasure and help us feel like we belong, forming relationships with people we admire/respect as friends, basically, working on being the best we can be....doing all possible to make life as happy and comfortable and full-filling as possible?

I wonder if maybe then.....a person would not give off whatever it is that is given off that gets these N's sniffing around and finding a hunger for??
I can't see them going for a happy, content, confident, independant, satisfied, person who appears to have a handle on life and who has a strong support system of good friends.  Don't they want people they think they can control easily and who they see as weak and alone?

GFN

[vunil as guest]

I agree with gfn.  I think, also, there is this little dance that happens.  When I was much more vulnerable (I had a lot of borderline characteristics in my youth, big on the drama and insecutiry) I would seek out people who seemed "strong."  Probably there was this inperceptible moment when I lingered my gaze or time on some man who was particularly arrogant and tall and confident.  He noticed this, and also noticed I was insecure and a little all over the place in my reactions, and liked that (ala gfn's theory).  So, we started flirting.  Somewhere along the way he said something to me patently untrue, or confusing, or selfish in some odd way.  I went along with it, or more likely fluttered around in infatuated confusion right in front of him.  Fun! (he thought).  Later he upped the ante and outright insulted me.  I would cry or cling to him or otherwise show that his insult affected me a lot.  I'd ask him what I could do to improve.  He would give me advice.  I would be greatful.  My cute little borderline self would make a big ta-do over everything that happened, thus amplifying him in a way that he just adored.

And so it went.

At any point in that dance one of us could have stopped, but it was all perfectly coreographed for maximum pathology....  

Eventually it would fall apart, of course, being built on absolute ridiculousness,  but not before my self-esteem was in complete tatters.


Now I can't stand men like that.  If I find myself with the slightest attraction for one, I make myself get away from him until it goes away-- I'm still capable of being attracted to N men, but no longer able to like them or admire them, and really unwilling to date them.  So, progress? I think that those men remind me of how I acted before and it is terrifying.   In fact, I am much more likely to be firmly stern with them now than anything else, to keep them in line.   Of course, there is another issue-- now that I'm not as young and cute they are less likely to come running after me

[Brigid]

I also agree with GFN that these N's have a way of sniffing out the most vulnerable among us.  My guess would be, that if their sniffer was incorrect, they would quickly be moving on to their next potential victim.

I also agree that they way to combat this is through therapy and a lot of building of the self.  I have started dating again, and I find that I can easily move on from someone that I do not feel is sincerely (and that is the tricky part) interested in an equal relationship.  We all know that N's can disguise their behaviors behind a mask of charm in the beginning, but I think I am getting pretty good at recognizing that.  I guess time will tell.

Brigid

[Anonymous]

What everyone else said. The N has this magical combination: Exciting/Rejecting. It is pretty compelling to all of us, but when we've worked on ourselves and know ourselves, we tend to pass over these types fairly quickly. They only have a superficial attraction. If you are kind of codependent, the "exciting/rejecting" combination is hugely addicting. And the codependent has the perfect combination of insecurity/dependency which they find compelling. The trick is to avoid these people when you feel the addictive attraction. And if they feel their addictive urge toward you, be very boring and they will move on.

bunny

[Anonymous]

I agree they have a nose for the vulnerabe, but I think they test virtually everyone they meet to ascertain their vulnerability. I doubt if its some sixth sense that says "hey vunil over there looks like a good target"
Its some kind of subtle radar recepters that allow them to detect who is likely to supply them with their own weird brand of nectar after a little interaction, just the way vunil described it.
Here's my question.
Where are the men, who are equivalent to all you women who married Ns?
What I've read says from 50-75% of Ns are men.
So why are there about well, zero cases of men stuck with an N wife here?
Longtire's sounds a lot closer to BPD.
Is it because men aren't attracted to N women?
That doesn't seem likely, since a lot of people here had N mothers.
Or is it because men married to Ns suffer in silence or are too ashamed to talk about it?
Or maybe men just hit the ground running when they figure it out?
I'm interested in any theories because I have no idea of my own.
Sorry if this temporarily hijacks your thread write.

mudpup

[Brigid]

Bunny,

If you are kind of codependent, the "exciting/rejecting" combination is hugely addicting. And the codependent has the perfect combination of insecurity/dependency which they find compelling.

Thank you for such a succinct explanation.  I find it scary how co-dependent I was (and potentially still could be).  There's no doubt about what I need to continue to work on in therapy.

Brigid

[bunny as guest]

mudpup,

Many of the N's described here (male & female) have borderline traits. In men the N traits are more visible, and in women the borderline traits are usually more visible. This is because narcissism is more "independent" in style while borderline is more "dependent" in style. Men get together with narcissistic women all the time. I think they're more likely to rationalize/find ways to adapt and less likely to talk about it.

bunny

[Stormchild Guesting]

mudpup,

Men get together with narcissistic women all the time. I think they're more likely to rationalize/find ways to adapt and less likely to talk about it.

bunny

Plus:

based on the things I overheard from pals who talked freely in front of me, an awful lot of men - not all of them, mind you, but a lot -

really dislike women, waaay down deep.

So. If the one they end up with is the kind of screaming nutbar I had to growl at in the office, doesn't this just confirm them in that dislike? and give them something to p*ss & moan about to their pals at Unhappy Hour? And.... help them justify cheating, etc.?

Believe me, I saw quite a bit of that mindset before I was even 30.

Men who like women, and are comfortable talking with them as people, and can actually discuss both the thoughts and the feelings happening under their own skins without doubting themselves in some basic way, are sadly somewhat rare compared to these other fellows.

I think we're incredibly lucky to have two of you on board, mud & long. And I know we are grateful as all getout.

[Jaded911]

I would love to come across someone with NPD that would explain truthfully, openly, and precisely what triggers their actions and thoughts.  All of our questions would be answered wouldnt they?

Trouble with that is their credibility would be questioned because of our experiences with N.

I comapare N victims to wild horses.  There are some you can catch and train and there are some that you can catch but never succeed at training.  There are some of us whose spirit couldnt be broken.  Yet there are some of us who changed the second we connected with a N.  I know N leaves ever lasting effects on everyone but I feel alot of compassion and empathy for those who are completely and whole heartedly sucked into the N web.

[Brigid]

Mudpup,

So why are there about well, zero cases of men stuck with an N wife here?

 
Other than my own therapy, I have 0 psychological knowledge, but I'll throw in my 2 cents anyway.   I think it has something to do with the differences in the way men and women are wired.  I am going to generalize here and I obviously know there are always exceptions (necessary disclaimer   ).

I think, for one thing, that most men do not question the level of intimacy in their relationships.  We all know that most men cringe, run, hide under the coffee table, whatever, when their significant other suggests "that we need to talk."  In most cases (my H being a big exception), men might have issue with a lack of physical intimacy, but probably not with the mental aspect of it (might be totally relieved, in fact).

I also think men have perfected "tuning out" better and if their wife is ranting or raving, they just don't hear it.  They also may not internalize the negative crap being thrown their way to the same extent (if they are basically mentally healthy to begin with).  We all know that boys can hurl stuff at each other one day and be pals the next.  Not so with girls.

From what I've read on this site from people raised by N mothers, their Nness tended to be more incidious and sneaky, than raging and outwardly nasty.  The husband may not be all that aware of what is going on.

Or maybe they were raised by an N or BPD mother and they think all women are like that.  After all, many of us ladies raised by N fathers went on to choose N husbands.

All that being said, I also think that more men end up with this disorder because they probably didn't let it out over time, thought that therapy was for woosies and just kept sliding into the abyss.

I may be totally full of sh*# here, but it is an interesting discussion, nonetheless.

Brigid

[vunil as guest]

I think it's maybe a simpler explanation (along with the complicated ones, which are also apt)-- there are very few men here in general!  We have two fabulous shining examples here, Mudpup and Longtire, and a few who show up sometimes.

Maybe this just isn't a guy kind of way of dealing with it.

I know lots of men who can't get enough of N-BPD women.  My most borderline friend, who just doesn't even hide her craziness and is also very N, is like catnip to men.  They can't get enough of her.  When I was my insecure borderline self, men were all over me.

Just as some women want to lean on the "strong" NPD man, some men like to save the "weak" NPD-BPD lady.  Other men seem really intrigued by women who are mean to them-- and they pick the most awful N women around. I have no idea what that is all about, but I have some friends who do it over and over again.  It has made for some awkward dinner parties...

[longtire]

My E-ears were burning, I heard my name mentioned here a few times.   I am very grateful to have this place and of course it is the people who make this place what it is.

In general, (dangerous words) I think men are trained to act like rugged individualists, even when they are not.  They are not trained to seek support and talk about their feelings.  Believe me, after looking for abuse support for men, I can understand why.  There is almost NONE out there, even with the wide range of the internet, where you can find anything.  An abused man's best bet seems to be to call the "women's shelter" for help.  There are a few things out there that are gender neutral, but the vast majority are geared toward women.  Is this another case of the strong (seeming) one not getting the support they lack and so desperately need?

Most men are trained not to share their feelings, though I see that changing slowly in society.  I crave talking and sharing, and I feel like a freak for for it.  I suspect many men who feel the same way, but just aren't as stubborn as me to keep trying and give up after a while.

[Stormchild]

Is this another case of the strong (seeming) one not getting the support they lack and so desperately need?

You know, Long, you may have nailed it. I remember seeing a book when I was in high school - early 70's - about how all this strong stuff really caused men health problems and so on. I wish I could remember the title of the book, it made quite an impression on me. Author was a psychologist, Herb something I think. Rats.

Anyway, it never seemed to get off the ground, that awareness of how society 'uses' men up. But for a couple of years there, it looked as though it might.

[d's mom]

there was a show on oprah where they showed child molestors discussing how they found their targets... they all said they searched out people who were vulnerable for -some- reason, could be lots of things, and then began a process of working up to figuring out if that person would submit to being a target...they always started small and if there was no objection, they escalated. they said if the person objected or showed hesitancy they would back off and move to searching out another target.

so i do think a big key is recognising those early red flags and not ignoring them or putting them off...  

this is the same with cult rectruiters....

on a cult-escape list i read, there is much discussion that anyone can get caught by cult recruiters - who are very similar to N people - becuase those people are predators and they are expert at finding those with anything they can exploit. its what they do. but you can reduce your chances of being targeted by strengthening your social network, self esteem, ability to say 'no', etc.

anna