acapella and the other n-partners

[Jaded911]

Guest Peach,

You are so right about N and I could not have put it into better words.  I do not find Sam V. words trustworthy.  It just reminds me of my xN standing in front of me trying to convince that something is what it isnt.  I have often wondered if Sam is stating facts he learned from reading or if he was revealing his own thoughts and feelings to others.  As far as I knew, N were not capable of doing this.

As far as moving on with my beef from the other board.  Been there done that and I will speak for myself, I have had enough argueing with my xN to last me a lifetime.  I do not have to hide behind the name guest to get my thoughts out there.  I have said what I wanted to and there aint no bout a doubt it that I said it because its right under my name for the world to see.  So with that said I am really ready to get and give support in a safe place.  I feel  this board has proven to be.  Im happy everyone at N-Partners is happy so guess you could say everyone is happy now so lets just move on with it and not feel we have to have that last word in.  My final word about that situation, unless I am attacked directly about it, then I will once again use my right to speak freely.

[Jaded911]

I have a question about Sam V, thanks guest now ya got me thinking.  Does anybody know if Sam is married or has been married before?  I have never heard him mention any woman or man depending on preference.  Just wondering if anyone else has?

[Anonymous]

Thanks to all of you who have been so nice to me here, because I feel very attacked just for leaving N-partners. I have not returned to it, even to read postings. I have no influence over that group whatsoever.

I am going to drop the whole stuff about leaving N-partners, it is water under the bridge now. People can think what they want about me, that is their prerogative.

I don't know whether Vaknin is married but he seems like a scary person to me. Probably he is very charismatic as well.

[Anonymous]

oops, that was me, Bunny, thanking people. I forgot to log in.

[Jaded911]

Guest, dang it bunny ya fooled me!

Not only have they been nice, they have been nonjudgmental too.  Even though this post has been active with bitching people, none of them have bitched about it.  Wow, they are allowing us to vent and they are not chastising us for it.  That is comforting in itself.

[Anonymous]

Great message Jaded.   I hope everyone follows suit because I think it would be a really good thing to begin the support and healing re. Nism again.

Not really to cut off anyone's expression of feelings because when there is anger, hurt, confusion, etc.,  it is healing, and even healthy, to sort and vent.   But there needs to be a time where the balance of the subject content begins to shift back to the 'norm'.  

About Sam & marriage, here are some excerpts from his archives.

Take care.

For YEARS I tried to settle down. Bought a home, married, established businesses, paid taxes. Went nuts. Acted out.  

In 1993 my wife had an affair. I overheard her hesitantly enquiring about a suggested venue. I loved her the way only a narcissist knows how to, the way a junkie loves his drugs.

I was married once and almost married twice but women are very hesitant with me.    

I *think* I remember his writing about being engaged at one time(while he still was).    I remembered being totally in awe, to put it mildly, that any woman, given what he was disclosing about himself in his extensive works, would marry him.    Turns out she didn't follow through.

[GuestPeach]

Whoops-- The previous message was from me, GuestPeach.   Forgot to add the username.

[Anonymous]

Guest Peach I am going to try this incognito entrance because I think it is  sorta mysterious. Lord knows my life is  hum drum without all of the N drama.  Damn that feels kinda good to be able to say that.

Anyhow, this is Jaded and I just wanted to thank ya for the information about Sam.  Sometimes if I think deep about a subject I have even deeper questions that arise.  I was thinking about some of the people who have the authority to advise others.  For example Sam:  Yes he is talking from his own experience but if we take what he has to say as the gospel, he is contradicting what he says a N is.  Its kind of like a habitual bank robber informing a bank how to secure their bank from himself.  So if Sam believes what he says is the truth, why hasnt he mended his whicked ways?  It is obvious he is only giving his lip service to the cause, not really putting his heart and soul into his efforts to mending his N self.  I dunno, it becomes so mind boggling trying to figure it out.

Then I think of a priest giving marriage advice to a couple.  Alrighty, ya just know his advice is learned material, he has not live it, never been  married, so how would he know the feelings, mechanics of it, and the depth of  marriage if he hasnt experienced those feelings?

 I read about NPD before and I thought it was confusing and I really didnt care much to learn more about it. I moved on with my studies never thought it would be knowledge I would need, so it did not really have a big impact on me.  Years later I lived it and all of a sudden the word NPD took on a new meaning to me.  It wasnt just words on a page, it was real and it was now my life and I realised how those words in that book did not even begin to desribe the affects of the ordeal or the aftermath of it.  So I guess I know from being involved with a N, Nothing that comes out of their mouths I believe.   He is speaking from experience unlike a priest who gives marriage counseling, but I dont know, it just gives me the same gut feeling I had with my N.  

Because I experienced my xN saying all the right things at all the right times, I am wondering if I am better off learning from someone who has not lived it but learned it, or from someone who confesses openly as a full blown N.  He  has lived it and displays it openly while he advises others how to avoid the likes of himself.

[Anonymous]

'Nofights' here

I have always had the same doubt about Sam's words (if we believe what he says an N is, then we can't believe what he says - a real conundrum)

But he has responded to queries about this conundrum by saying that his 'payoff' for being truthful about all of this is that it puts him in the role of 'expert', and thus fulfills his grandiose tendencies.

I don't think that quite answers the question for me either, but there ya go.

All I know is that when I first came upon Sam's materials, so much of it rang so familiar that it took me a few weeks to get my jaw off the floor.  It resonated with me, for some reason, so I am careful not to discard it all for the sake of a logical conundrum

[Anonymous]

I agree with you guest.  I do not really trust what he has to say but then again I have learned from what he has to say.  

He was the first person I stumbled upon while trying to figure this all out.  It was all so overwhelming at that time because of the state I was in.  If he is speaking half truths when he says anything it does give me a glimpse inside of their minds.  I just want to know more on N at the personal level.  I think I have a good feeling for the dynamics of it, I would just love to find some information on a more personal level.  

One thing I do know, I have yet to read or hear of anyone who has overcome it.  You just cant talk the talk, you have to walk the walk.  I think that would be a hard road to tow for them.

[hope2003]

I had the same reaction to Vaknin's book as nofights.  But, if you read it carefully, it is full of contradicts.  

I keep it handy as a reminder.

[Jaded911]

Hope,

That is a good way to look at it, I never thought of keeping it around for a reminder.  But I know that is not one book I reach for when I want the truth about Nism.

[GuestPeach]

Re. Sam V. hard to trust:   I had to wonder in that quote where he talks about his wife having had an affair, whether it was so, or a projection of his own behavior   I've read on the boards several times already, where the N partner was accused of excessive flirting and/or cheating, when they were completely innocent and it was really the N doing so.

It was the same for me Jaded.   As part of my studies and work I'd read about Nism but had no clue I was living it.   The DSM descriptors & a good bit of the Sam V. stuff didn't fit my xN.    

For myself, the *partners* of N’s has been the best learning source.  I don’t mean the specific board, I mean all of us who have been involved in intricate relationships with N’s.    I actually read about Nism from those other sources at one time because of my notice of his extreme self-centeredness, and wrote it off as applying to him.   I only realized my xN was indeed an N no doubt, after reading the messages of those that were partners of N’s on the boards.

But now that I have a much broader view about Nism, I can get value from the other sources as well.   They just weren’t good *first* sources for me.    At any rate, when reading stuff I draw my own conclusions as to what seems to fit for my situation, and take some and leave some.

[MariaTree]

Hope, I wanted you to know that my comment was not directed at you. It was an inappropriate thing for me to say, and I understand your feeling that it was unfair that no one called me on it.
I benefitted greatly from all of the N-partner's input, but I did experience some uncomfortably familiar feelings from some of the replies I read. That's probably not helpful for me to add,boundaries work both ways,  and I will try to work on this.
I hope that all of the former N-partners are well.  MariaTree

[hope2003]

Mariatree:  

As I said before, I didn't assume that your comments were directed at me.  I was merely pointing out a double standard.  i was kicked off before calling ANYONE a name. You called people N's.  The EXACT name that Sandahl said was so offensive that it warranted being banned.

I am not commenting on whether or not your comments were inappropriate.  I think you are entitled to your opinion.  I am not saying that I agree or disagree.  I didn't think your comments were particulary malicious, and therefore, I feel that type of dialogue is appropriate regardless of whether or not I agree with the content.

I e-mailed Sandahl directly to point out her hypocrisy.  Big surprise, no response.  

But, I thank you for the kind words. It is really a shame what happened.