Author Topic: The meaning of life ???  (Read 8007 times)

Anonymous

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The meaning of life ???
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2005, 11:38:29 AM »
mum,

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I married a few toads, before I realized (and thankfully was able to find him again!) that the first man who asked me to marry him 24 years ago, is indeed that person that I feel that connection to.

Now that is a cool story. 8)  Very Romantic.  :D

mud

Portia

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The meaning of life ???
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2005, 12:22:21 PM »
I’m a bit late on this one October but I’d like to talk, see if I change my mind during writing this….

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Either we are all here to support one another, and find our humanity in empathy and love, or else we are all alone, and the trick is to get over it and then sink or swim.

We can’t practically live alone, we’d die. So we need others to physically survive.

In our heads, we’re always alone (?as far as we can tell). Through language, limited though it is, we can exchange ideas and find people who share our ideas about life. Feeling part of a group can make us feel content and secure. A group also gives us possibilities for growth and achievement (‘progress’).

We’re animals. As much as we like to separate ourselves from ‘the animal kingdom’ etc, that’s just human narcissism: we think we’re above all the other animals (why?). The evidence is our superiority due to our opposable thumbs and big brains. That superiority is shown through our aggressive dominance (as it is with all animals?).

Life is competitive. Life is about survival of the dominant genes. Why do we have children? Not for altruistic reasons, or at least I haven’t heard an altruistic reason yet. I’m still open to changing that view though.

We are here to survive and pass on our genes and that’s it. And what’s right or wrong with that? It just is. That’s what animals do.  

What is humanity? To me it’s being an animal that appears to have attributes that other animals don’t. I don’t know if consciousness is a useful attribute for survival. But I do think that because we do have big brains, that we can keep stretching them. We don’t have to accept our current thoughts; we can change our ways of thinking. For me one way of doing this is by talking about things which bore me silly, or which I disagree strongly with. I try and listen and understand what it is that other people find interesting. By doing that, trying to enter their worlds, I can maybe get a glimpse of why I think differently to them and vice-versa. But I don’t assume that anyone is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’, I’m interested in ‘why’.

Delphine said:
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And when I look at the world around me it is very difficult to see evidence that we were intentfully DESIGNED to function lovingly and cooperatively.


I think we were designed as all animals, to survive. What is the purpose of life? To continue to grow and adapt. If that growing and adapting means cooperating, we’ll do that (within our family/tribal/social/country groups). People don’t drive the wrong way down a highway, that’s cooperation. We don’t all murder our neighbours these days, in most countries (?not sure that’s a fact). I think we’re slightly better at living together than we used to be, so that’s improvement.  :D So human survival isn’t all that bad a concept! The more we realise we live on one world, the more we know about what happens on this planet, the more we live together cooperatively, the more chance we have of surviving as a species.

As soon as we’re born, we’re selfishly fighting for survival. We aren’t designed to give up our water and food to someone else, unless we have more than enough. Then we might share so that we’re not alone and we have another group member etc etc…

People in some parts of the world have far more than enough for survival today. People in other parts of the world are dying right now from lack of food, clean water etc. Obviously we are a competitive, survival-driven animal, because if we weren’t, the situation would be different.

I don’t find myself cooperating with many people around me (in the real world) because I don’t want what they want. It is difficult finding people who want to share, to enjoy and who are open to real conversation.

But why should life be easy? Why do we expect things to be good just because we live? Survival is about knowing what you want and fighting for it – and that includes fighting for cooperation and better understanding if that’s what you want.

Thanks October, that clarified some stuff for me. Hope it isn’t too off-the-wall for your thread, because it feels it to me (but then I’m often on my own and I’m used to it, what the heck) best, P

2cents

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The meaning of life ???
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2005, 03:00:55 PM »
The meaning of life as far as I can tell, is to LIVE it. My own life has been very fractured and difficult and painful, with a lot of missing spaces. I seem to have spent most of mine so far looking to fill in the cracks. Occasionally I have found myself in the thick of life, in places and situations with a richness and denseness that was truly fulfilling. Right now I'm in a place at once arid and foggy (aka depression plus confusion/indecision/fear).

I think life is about challenges and growth, and the frustrations come from not being able to use situations to stretch and grow (these are my experiences anyway.) Learning to be fearless again, learning to laugh, to fall down and stand up again, and most of all, learning to love. People, places, and ourselves too. It's difficult, challenging and sometimes heartbreaking too, but it's worth it. (Now if only I could get myself to believe that again i really will be laughing :lol:)

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Anonymous

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The meaning of life ???
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2005, 10:58:47 AM »
This is the cooolest thread!!  I love reading it and wish I had time to go over and over it because there is so much here...so many ideas....so many ways of looking at things....it just gives me enthusiasm and hope!!

Just want to say P, re what you wrote:

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Hope it isn’t too off-the-wall for your thread, because it feels it to me (but then I’m often on my own and I’m used to it, what the heck)


I think what you wrote is very logical and realistic.  Truly a great post, P!!

Truly, many great posts here!! :D  :D  :D

Thanks for starting this one, October!!

GFN

bunny

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The meaning of life ???
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2005, 11:40:56 AM »
2cents,

Your 2cents makes a lot of sense to me. I think the purpose of life is to live it and not fritter it away, spend it in a useless depression, but try to appreciate the moment. What if the sky is sunny, with puffy clouds, and a few birds flying, and I won't even look at it because of some other crap that will pass anyway. So I try to look at the sky and appreciate it. (Stopping and smelling the roses philosophy). I'm not 100% successful but that's the idea.

bunny

October

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The meaning of life ???
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2005, 02:39:54 PM »
Well, this is not really helping.  I agree with the theory of it all, and I even live by it, but why does it not work the other way?

My t tells me that if I am in trouble I should ring the Samaritans.  Then she tells me she will be there next Monday, but then away for 2 weeks.  What is going on?  She thinks it is about her, but it is not.  I don't care if I never see her again, as long as I get the support I need.  She thinks I want her home phone number, or something.   :shock:  There is a real misunderstanding.  A fundamental failure of me to communicate and of her to understand what I need.  

I have a thousand people - friends - who I can call any time at all.  What I need is someone to call when I am approaching a dangerous state, who can help me to come back from that state.  

So I ring a friend, who is normally a good friend, and leave a message.  One message in 100, saying I am having a bad day, and really struggling.  That was yesterday.  He already promised to ring me on Monday, but didn't.  Then I left the message and I am still waiting.  No reply to his phone.  No call back.  But I went and helped him out last Saturday, and we had a good day.  Why is it when I need help suddenly all the lines go dead?

Really struggling with this one.  I am all in favour of a loving universe, but how come it only seems to work one way?  Sorry, feeling a bit down tonight, as you can see.  Listened to the Archbishop of Canterbury's sermon at a service in St Pauls for the Tsunami today, and it made the tears fall, because he said all those things that I want to believe are true, and which I try to live by, but which seem so rare around me.

And I have to try to garner some enthusiasm for everyday life, when it is all so difficult, and all I want to do is to go to bed.   :?

Hmm.  Bit down, as I said.  I am struggling to see the point of being altruistic in a world that really doesn't give a damn.

bunny

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The meaning of life ???
« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2005, 03:08:51 PM »
Quote from: October
My t tells me that if I am in trouble I should ring the Samaritans.  Then she tells me she will be there next Monday, but then away for 2 weeks.  What is going on?


My guess is that she isn't a great therapist since she's abandoning you.



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So I ring a friend, who is normally a good friend, and leave a message.  One message in 100, saying I am having a bad day, and really struggling.  That was yesterday.  He already promised to ring me on Monday, but didn't.  Then I left the message and I am still waiting.  No reply to his phone.  No call back.  But I went and helped him out last Saturday, and we had a good day.  Why is it when I need help suddenly all the lines go dead?


Is this the gay minister? If so, he's been unreliable and selfish before. If it's not him, it's probably someone who can't tolerate other people's difficulties and gets overwhelmed very quickly. Friends can't really cut it when you're in a panic. So I'm glad you posted here.

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Really struggling with this one.  I am all in favour of a loving universe, but how come it only seems to work one way?  Sorry, feeling a bit down tonight, as you can see.  Listened to the Archbishop of Canterbury's sermon at a service in St Pauls for the Tsunami today, and it made the tears fall, because he said all those things that I want to believe are true, and which I try to live by, but which seem so rare around me.


Do you mean you love the universe but it doesn't love you? Sorry, I am a bit confused there.


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And I have to try to garner some enthusiasm for everyday life, when it is all so difficult, and all I want to do is to go to bed.   :?


You don't have to garner any enthusiasm for everyday life. Forget that. And you don't have to be altruistic when you're in some kind of downward spiral. What little things can you do to take care of yourself right now? Do you like tea, or reading in bed?

{{ October }}

Anonymous

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The meaning of life ???
« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2005, 03:18:02 PM »
Hi October:

Sorry you're feeling down and out (no wait....you're in.... :? ).

Yes......give, give, give.  Does it seems like that's all you do some days?

Giving without wanting anything in return....is a hard concept to fall in love with.  It can feel draining.  It can feel like a waste of time...un-noticed... like it doesn't make a difference.

It's you....and people like you......who do give much to others....who overcome fear...like you did last weekend.....and give beyond what many of us might find easy to give.....who give over and above what seems comfortable......people like you who make....the world....a better place.

And when you're feeling low.....and sad.....and needy......now you feel abandoned and ignored..... because no one is giving back fearlessly to you/beyond what is easy/comfortable.   :(   Yes.....that is sad and not fair at all.

(just think of the extra points you're earning with the Big Boss Upstairs!!! :D ).  But that isn't any consellation right now, is it?  Because you'd rather have immediate gratification....have someone phone right back......take action to help you....now.  Who wants to wait for the points to be added up anyhow?? :roll:

That's probably why they say patience is a virtue  It's not easy to be virtuous always.  Impossible.....really eh?  So I don't expect you to be either.  I understand your disappointment and frustration....with the T and your fail-to-phone-back friend.  And I can't give you one reason why you should not feel the way you do.  As a matter of fact....your feelings are very valid and very much what I think I might feel, under similar circumstances, what anyone might feel.

The only thing I see that may help is to remind you that not ........ everyone......in the world is like your T and your friend.  Maybe call a different friend?  Would that help?

The theories of life...in this thread....give us plenty to think about but that isn't helping you right now.  I think you want a reason why the rest of the world isn't so giving?  Why you can live the theory but the rest of the world doesn't?  Maybe....why there is evil in the world??? :?:  :?:

Maybe you're not counting everyone?  Does your child give back?  Do you have some friends who are more like you?  Have you seen good things happen for others....giving things.....kind things......fearless things....generous stuff?  I understand that you want to personally experience it more, but seeing it happen may also be considered a gift.  Some people see nothing but horror and torture their entire lives. :(  :(

I'm just rambling away here, October.  I've learned truly that it is most certainly...by giving....that we recieve the most.  I embrace this idea and wholey believe it.  Therefore...it is a very powerful idea for me and makes a big difference in my life.  I don't care whether or not I get anything back.  I truly don't.  I like to give and if I could......I'd be over to your place in a flash....with a cake...to share tea with you (but no marmite!! :shock: ) and see if we couldn't find some reasonable solution... or to just listen..... and what's it.....sit shiva with you?   :(  :(  But that isn't possilbe...except in spirit, October.

I guess you will have to decide what to embrace?  A teddy bear?  The helpful intentions of people here?  The good things you do have in your life?  And somehow....set asside/or plan for the things that are missing  because they are either.....things you can work toward, hope for, or, not.   If not....then there has to be a way to let them go, otherwise you will spend your life....trying to achieve the impossible.  You're far too wise for that, I think.

Hope tomorrow is a much better day!! ((((((((October))))))))

GFN

delphine

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The meaning of life ???
« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2005, 08:44:55 PM »
October, I am so sorry you are struggling like that. I've felt like that in my life more than a few times.
What helps me is sometimes to get out of the house and talk to anyone, people you run into in the grocery or a coffeeshop- just the run of the mill idle chatter can make me feel connected to people again. It doesn't have to be a listener to my problems, sometimes I am my problem; too much introspection.
Another great help was 12 step groups because you get a member list of 10-20 people you can call day or night. This was very helpful to me when I was divorcing as I needed to obsess until I ran out of steam and I met kind souls who would let me do it.
I hope you find those vital human connections.
We all need them.
hugs,
Delphine

October

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The meaning of life ???
« Reply #39 on: May 12, 2005, 07:13:39 AM »
Sorry to be so wimpish yesterday.  This morning I had a visit from a friend who God always sends when things are difficult.  Many times in the past Anne's visits and phone calls have coincided with the worst days, so maybe I need to remember that a bit more.  It was good to see her.

She is not a therapist, but she is a good friend, and has been a bit of a surrogate mum in the past to me, which is worth a lot more.  She listens.  She doesn't try to give me answers because sometimes there are none.  But she listens.

So today I am trying to keep going.  Have done the ironing, which was threatening to overtake Everest.  Only pillowcases left, and maybe I will get C to do those.  We all have to start on the pillowcases!!

Later on I have to take C to see her consultant at the hospital, but we are going to walk, because it is a nice day.  Bit windy, but otherwise lovely.

So, life goes on.   :?   No point wondering whether it is worthwhile or not, really, because there is not a lot of choice.  

Thanks for all the love and support, and the understanding.

October

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The meaning of life ???
« Reply #40 on: May 12, 2005, 07:26:07 AM »
Quote from: bunny


My guess is that she isn't a great therapist since she's abandoning you.


The problem is, as with all therapists, she thinks it is a dependency issue.  Maybe it is, but not the way they get taught to expect.  I have problems attaching to people, and no problem at all detaching.  She thinks I want her phone number/email.  I don't.  I want to know that during the times between sessions I am safe.  I have since found a helpline number for a women's abuse group, so that is probably enough.  That and friends.  But it should not have to be this way, imo.


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Is this the gay minister? If so, he's been unreliable and selfish before.


Yes.  It is him.  And yes, he is sometimes unreliable and selfish.  Mostly when I need help.  I really should learn to remember patterns, rather than discounting them.  You are right, I should have called someone else.  I need to tell him not to say 'I will call you later', because sometimes he forgets.  And worst of all if I ring and ask him to call, and he doesn't.  Because I very rarely do that.  


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Do you mean you love the universe but it doesn't love you? Sorry, I am a bit confused there.


I mean I try to live by the expectation that love matters, and that giving is more important than receiving.  Which is fine for 90% or more of the time, but it falls down if, at the point of need, everyone runs for the hills and leaves you on your own.  At that point, you just feel used.  Then it is not about love, it is about exploiting someone with too kind or loving or forgiving a nature.  You end up not feeling like a kind person.  You - I - feel like an idiot for falling for the same old trick all over again.  


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You don't have to garner any enthusiasm for everyday life. Forget that. And you don't have to be altruistic when you're in some kind of downward spiral. What little things can you do to take care of yourself right now? Do you like tea, or reading in bed?


Yes.  Spent a lot of time reading recently.  The Woman in White, by Wilkie Collins.  Brilliant detective story - real gothic horror if anyone hasn't heard of it.  Now finished that one and started the Moonstone.  Same author.

Would stay in bed all day except for having C to look after.  Probably just as well, really.  Still not feeling brilliant, but that is understandable, considering what is going on here.  But at least I am carrying on.

If it gets much worse, I will have to resort to the SJW.   :lol:   (Pathetic joke, but better than nothing.)

2cents

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The meaning of life ???
« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2005, 09:05:13 AM »
Hey October,

Glad you're feeling a bit better, and well done on getting the ironing done!

If you like Wilkie Collins' "The Woman In White" there's a book by James Wilson called "The Dark Clue" which continues the story of the characters from TWIW. Picked it up a few years ago, and enjoyed it so much I went to get the Collin's book which inspired it!

Good vibes to you best and C,

2cents

Anonymous

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The meaning of life ???
« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2005, 09:20:04 AM »
Hiya October:

I'm glad you're feeling better today too!  

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Sorry to be so wimpish yesterday.


You are entitled to feel whatever it is you feel.  No need to appologize for voicing it and reaching out for support.  Even if what we say, is not the right thing, or not much help, at least people here try to respond..... because they care.  Me included (although I don't know what makes me think I can speak for everyone....but maybe on this one occasion... I will be forgiven?? )

I'm glad your friend came over and listened.  I'm so glad you have such a nice friend, who cares about you.  That is so nice to hear! :D

GFN

October

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The meaning of life ???
« Reply #43 on: May 13, 2005, 05:37:56 AM »
Quote from: Anonymous
Even if what we say, is not the right thing, or not much help, at least people here try to respond..... because they care.  
GFN


I don't think anyone said the 'wrong thing', whatever that is.  I have really enjoyed reading everyone's perspective on this.  I only wish I hadn't fallen into a black hole, which prevented me replying or commenting in more detail.  Like to say to dear P that I think we are more than just animals with awareness.  But I would say that, wouldn't I/  Doesn't make her wrong.  Just a different way of looking at the world.

I must try to find the A of C sermon, to continue the debate.  It was really moving.   :)

October

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The meaning of life ???
« Reply #44 on: May 13, 2005, 05:41:16 AM »
Here it is.  I hope others find it as moving as I did.   :)



http://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/sermons_speeches/050511.htm