Hurricane Katrina Apathy?

[d'smom]

In a rare alliance with the insurance companies, I like their labeling of hurricanes, 500 year floods and the like.  They are "acts of God".  They are not preventable.  They occur randomnly as tragedy often does in life.  They occurred in prehistoric times and they occur now. It is not the governments fault, or Bush's fault or Jesse Jackson's fault or (fill in the blank's) fault.  It is okay to get emotional about it.  It is devastating and horrible.  I still dont get the blame part, though. Sorry.


SIGH - in the interest of communication im going to try and stay as objective as possible during this answer.

it -feels- as though (and i honestly feared this would happen, and honestly held back expression emotions becuase of it) that beucase i express at any point something emotional regarding this,  that you are now using this opportunity to advance your theory that anyone who seems to 'blaming' anyone over this, is doing so out of misplaced emotions.

now, i cant say this is what you are doing. but, i -feel- as though it is, and if you are, frankly i find it quite insulting.   im fairly sure you will deny it but, c'est la vie. thats your right.  but, beucase i dislike feeling like people are telling me what i think or feel,  i will explain to you 'the blame part'.

im pretty sure most people here are not going to agree with this. but thats ok.   lets test us, and see if i can say it anyway. prepared to be horrified everyone.

you see,  it didnt take hurricane katrina for me to despise this government.  or for me to know exactly what i think its doing wrong, and exactly what i expect us all to reap from what i consider its extremely persistently bad decisions.    to me it was merely a matter of time.  so it was a hurricane this time. it could have been anything. bottom line, we are not taking care of our people. i hope the whole world is finally made aware of this and that bush is shamed in front of the world as -i- feel he should have been, for -years- now.  as one of the voiceless underclass, -i- just hope this pulls the lid off the box.

for you see, (brace yourself now) i despise the bush government. i despised his fathers government. i despised the reagans government. long before any huricane katrina.  why? beucase i personally see them (its totally ok if you disagree now, im pretty sure you will) as selfish, money hungry, short sighted, prejudiced, dysfunctional, warmongering dictators that are failing to take care of its own people with supposedly the greatest acces to resources in the world.  <<-gasp-!!!>> i have thought this for the past twenty years, katrina or not.

i see them fighting wars in countries where -i- do not believe we belong. i see them taking money that -i- believe should be spent on domestic and environmental issues and wasting it running up massive govt debt.  i see humans in general destroying rainforests...... decimating wetlands and totally destabilising the natural weather patterns on which this planet and all of life depends.

so you see, i do -not- believe this was an 'act of god'. i believe this was an act of carelessness, and possibly retribution, beucase of the way -i- believe we are destabilising the natural resources of this planet through our overuse of fossil fuels and decimation of natural weather patterns, combined with years of degradation of the poor of this society and mismanagement of government funding. its ok if you disagree. im used to it.

you see to me, i see it as all -interconnected-.  i see a supreme irony.  i see it as supreme irony that we are involved in what i see as a pointless war over oil. i feel that the use of the fossil fuels coming from this oil, contributes to what i believe to be global warming. i see it as supremely ironic that it could easily be this environmental destabilisation that are leading to some of these horrendous storms recently.

further, i see it as a supreme irony that the poor people could not evacuate beucase as -i- see it, there were not enough funds at the local level, due to this ridiculous war, for people to afford the -ridiculously high gas prices- to get out of town, where they are incredibly poor beucase of the lack of jobs and sucky economy further caused by the bush administrations lousy decisions. !!!!!!  it didnt take this hurricane for me to think all that.  it just made me feel that everything i thought before was 100% accurate.

now,  you may not agree with a single thing that i just said. you probably dont, and thats 1000% ok. but putting that aside, taking as an intellectual exercise that -just possibly- some of what i said may in fact have some basis in truth, i dont think a position of 'blame' for the people that -i- define as idiots having brought most of those conditions about is the least bit unreasonable, whether or not i -also- happen to have emotional feelings related to the poor citizens who are paying for it, as poor citizens always must.

to make an analogy: lets say you go out of town and ask me to watch your house. lets say that while you are gone i have a huge party in your garage. i leave all the doors unlocked and all the windows open. i stand by drinking a beer as i watch people loot your house.  when you get back you find your house is robbed and everything is destroyed.   you ask me what happened. i say... 'hey... act of god, man.  couldnt predict it. nuthin' i could do'.



does this illustrate my position accurately?


i am perfectly capable of expression both appropriate emotion, -and- properly assigning 'blame' and expecting those responsible to take responsbility, within the logical reference points of my own world view.

[bliz]

Well, I dont remember saying anything at all about emotions in this one, so you have stymied me again.  I do get, you hate all things Bush.  So if it happened under Clinton, he would have gotten a pass or somehow it would have been okay?  I am sure there is some national crisis he mishandled.  Oh yeah, his own misconduct.

I mean do you think this administration alone is responsible for all the ills in America today including the hurricane damage?  Okay starting tomorrow America will completley fortify itself against all future natural disasters of any kind.  lWe will subsidize the poor, give them food, educations, whatever they need to survice.  OH wait a minute, we already do that.  Okay we will just step it up a notch or two. Your taxes are now going to go up about 1000% to pay for this.  Are you okay with that? I am not. 

You may be surprised to know that I am not a big Bush supporter. However, I think it is short sighted and yes, I will say it this time, a misplaced emotion to rail against the devastation of a natural disaster and make all entities governmental responsible.  How about turning that energy to good use?  Like doing something to help the victims or change the government. That is what I do and did.

I have been on the other side of the fence.  You can sit around and rail against the government and continue to let bad luck happen to you or you can make changes.   

[miss piggy]

Hi Ya Bliz and D'smom!

Maybe these should go on the Favorite Quotes thread:

"First rule of leadership, Princess.  It's all your fault."
Kevin Spacey's Head Thug Grasshopper character in A Bug's Life

"Vote the b*st*rds out!"
my grandfather applied this to all incumbents regardless of party (hah, I almost wrote incompetents, Freudian slip, eh?) saying "they had their chance."

I think at least 95% of the politicians around are a self-serving bunch.  Politics wasn't supposed to be a career.  One was supposed to have a "day job" back in the old days.  I hate partisan politics because it's just so easy to say My team is better than your team.

Perhaps blame isn't the right word unless we are talking about what we've done to the environment.  However, if we are talking about the delays in recovery response, I think accountability is what we're after.  We need more accountability in government.  I'm for focusing on recovery.  But complaining is valid.  Protesting is valid.  That's what got us out of Vietnam finally (eventually) if you want to  pick on the Dems' faulty policies.  But it's Bush's watch right now, so he gets to hear it, along with the Governor and mayors of wherever. 

There is no external enemy here, unlike 9-11.  So we can't direct our anger outside.  I am horrified, but my outrage hasn't quite caught up yet.  It will probably reallly bloom in another couple of days when we hear the body count.  But I'm still of the opinion that government failed.  The old, the young, the poor property-less people, etc. have NO VOICE in government.  If they don't vote, they don't exist.  The pre-disaster assumptions for planning didn't work.  Period.  Things need to change.  Because there will be a next time.

MP

[vunil]

Moi agree with Miss Piggy.  I don't think anyone is trying to place blame for the hurricane in particular (although there may be complicated global warming stuff going on there, but let's ignore that possibility).  I think d's mom is reacting to that accusation because it makes people who are trying to understand what went wrong in the rescue sound really nutty.  (i.e., Blaming someone for a hurricane! Pretty disfunctional.  Must be a coping mechanism or something else odd.)

Trying to figure out what went wrong with the rescue has been just so ubiquitous on the news and every board and every conversation I have heard of or had about the hurricane-- could I suggest we drop the argument about whether it is ok to wonder if things could have gone better with the rescue?  Since pretty much everyone who is thinking and talking about this disaster (including the mild-mannered USA Today) is mentioning the botched rescue, it seems like a moot point whether the rescue was botched or not.  It was. 

Now, who is to blame, that will rage on for years probably.  I agree we could stay away from that one since we're likely to blame whoever we already don't like that much in the first place.  But the general idea that something wasn't great in the rescue?  That seems like something that has already been decided.  I don't think it means someone is dysfunctional or coping in some weird way or doesn't care about the rescue or doesn't understand about accidents and acts of god.

Just sayin'...  Seems like whenever we cycle back onto this "argument" everyone gets mad again when honestly I think that at this point it is clearly not an argument anymore.

[Sela]

Now there's something else I'm ashamed of:

The fact that in a mere couple hundred years, less really, we humans have managed to just about reck a planet that our ancestors, as nasty as some of them were, were able to preserve for so many, many, many generations.

I agree that there is some interconnection (possibly....because I can't be sure .....don't know the science....but it sure makes sense re weather patterns and stuff) between oil and war and weather and governments and corruption.  On the other hand, I better take my own share of the blame.

I heat my home.
I use electrical appliances.
I drive a car.
I use Tide to wash clothing (and fleecy....to fabric soften ).
I drink water and flush my toilet.
I turn on lights.
I like my pc and my tv and my cd player and my electric piano too.
I put stuff in the garbage (I do recycle and compost religiously....and hope it helps).
I use my share of energy.....for heat, hydro, fuel, water treatment, garbage disposal, road maintenance, city services and lighting, etc.
Oh....and I consume goods which are transported....stuff from far away places like... ..spanish onions...no wait...we grow those here!  Well, ya know, stuff (just kidding a bit here....why not eh? ).

Seriously, I'm just as guilty as the devil himself for polluting the environment because I've become accustomed to and enjoy my comforts as well as anyone and I won't be giving them up any time soon.

here's a guy north of here who built one of those straw bale homes, shaped like an igloo, mostly underground, with his own windmill and .....don't know about the water he uses??  Now there's a guy who's really doing his best to conserve energy.  Costs a lotta moola though.  300 grand for the windmill alone!

I'm not insinuating that coping mechanisms are in any way bad.  As a matter of fact, I think most of them are extremely good for helping us survive and I really am sorry, Anna, about saying anything that may have made you think I'm judging you, in any way, to be over-emotional or blaming inappropriately.  I blame too.  It helps to blame, I think.  It puts the onus somewhere instead of just letting that onus float around oblivia, like a confused moth.

But blame me too, ok, because I've contributed too.  I'm still contributing this very minute by typing here and I will continue to use energy.....derived from fossil fuels, much of it, in one way or another, for my selfish comforts, until something, hopefully much less harmful, comes along.
It only seems fair to take my share of the blame.  It's the least I can do.

We definately need new sources of energy.  This past summer, I took a train west, for over two days and rode a bus for 5 and 1/2 hours north after that.....to find the answer to two questions.....the questions that really matter to me in this regard....

Why aren't we using our own (Canadian) oil and what are the oil companies doing about developing alternative energy sources?

I went to the Oil Sands in Northern Alberta to see what the process is for extracting oil and specifically....to ask those questions.

Guess what?  None of the staff could answer.  They said they didn't know.

Big bucks I paid to find out what?  Notta.

But someone on the bus....on the way back south...just another person.....had answers.

He said:

"They (the oil companies) are aware they have about 25 years worth of oil sand left so they are developing alternatives but they won't say what those might be because they want the pick of the market, the most profitable alternative, the first dibs etc".

and

"We sell our oil to the world market and buy it back because the oil companies make more money that way."

Ain't that sweet?  Guess how much it costs for a litre of gas in Egypt (if what I heard is correct??)??

4 cents.

Better blame those Egyptians for the increased hurricanes too because my bet is....they don't worry about wasting fossil fuel much.  Not at a measley 4 cents.

The corruption extends past the governments, is my best bet.

I guess what I'm saying is that it isn't fair to try to pin the blame on any one entity, person, group or country.

We are all to blame.  The onus has a home.  It's not a moth from oblivia.

Let's face it, we've done more harm probably, in our own short life times, than anything our nasty ancestors did.   And human suffering hasn't changed all that much either.  So really, a fraction of us lucky energy consumers are continuing to ruin the world for even those poor natives who are still sitting around camp fires, somewhere by the rain forrests.  Ooops!  They're cutting those down, I forgot, for what else....profit.

We elect to use energy, we elect to enjoy comforts and we elect our governments, hoping to continue to enjoy those comforts and....we aren't happy when they are corrupt (as if there is such a thing as a government completely corruption-free.....hahahahahaha....now that is silly!! ).

The BBC reported this evening an unveiling of corruption in the UN and there is a call for total reform.

Beauty eh? (to quote good ol' Bob and Doug, two Cannucks who had their priorities set on beer and doughnuts, oh ya, and back bacon eh).

Jeepers.  I hadn't even thought of the UN being corrupt.  How silly of me really.

There are certainly honest people who have, do, and will fight corruption in governments and for those who are suffering and down trodden and who are doing their best to make changes that will hopefully bring about some sane way of handling the whole mess.

But if you can show me one organization that has not got a stinky sock in the closet, I'll give up back bacon, for good.  I mean it!!  Never again!!  Back bacon begone!!!

  Sela 

[Sallying Forth]

Sallying Forth,

I think the response to your thread demonstrates a lack of apathy....

MP

I wrote this thread to express my identification with the "thrown away" people in NOLA.

I can easily identify with that.

Who are you saying demonstrates a lack of apathy?   The response? I am confused.

Interesting MP ... my lack of response to my own thread???

... well I am simply not on the same wavelength as the responders to this thread.

[vunil]

... well I am simply not on the same wavelength as the responders to this thread.

Could you be more specific? 

I THINK what was meant by lack of apathy is the outpouring of caring for the victims by the posters here, and by the citzenry at large. 

But I THINK what you are feeling was apathetic was the rescue response toward the victims, which was too slow.

Is this right?  And you are not feeling you are on the same wavelength as folks here because there is less emphasis on the victims in the posts than you would like/expect?  That last one is a venture because I honestly don't know.  Help?

[d'smom]

Now there's something else I'm ashamed of:

The fact that in a mere couple hundred years, less really, we humans have managed to just about reck a planet that our ancestors, as nasty as some of them were, were able to preserve for so many, many, many generations.

I agree that there is some interconnection (possibly....because I can't be sure .....don't know the science....but it sure makes sense re weather patterns and stuff) between oil and war and weather and governments and corruption.  On the other hand, I better take my own share of the blame.
..........
Seriously, I'm just as guilty as the devil himself for polluting the environment because I've become accustomed to and enjoy my comforts as well as anyone and I won't be giving them up any time soon.

here's a guy north of here who built one of those straw bale homes, shaped like an igloo, mostly underground, with his own windmill and .....don't know about the water he uses??  Now there's a guy who's really doing his best to conserve energy.  Costs a lotta moola though.  300 grand for the windmill alone!


sela:

well i think that people must use what they are given.......  you have to use what is around you, in the social infrastructure.  you must adapt, and you must use what you can afford, and what is there.   i dont blame anyone for doing the best they can.

possibly its easier for me to get further away from what 'usual' americans do beucase we here live in an extremely 'green' town. for instance, the country fair every year is run completely on solar energy..... i mean, -all- of it.  they recycle -everything-, even the plates and forks are made out of soy!

this has been called one of the most bicycle friendly towns in the us. almost everyone in the town recycles, most people have personal gardens, (you should see the one next door, the raspberries are incredible) almost everyone composts.... they just had a news show the other night about a guy who just converted his whole lawn to a totally self sufficient garden. he was there on the local news saying we each have to do what we can. this is a greeeen town.

for many many years, i did not even live in a house........  i lived on a platform in the jungle in hawaii, with no electricity and no heated water for almost a year.  that was delightful.  for years i had no tv .... nor was i paying for -any- utilities.  i have never paid for cable, nor have i ever had it in my house.    i admit, i have always had a car  ==  mostly becuase for many years i also -lived- in my car.  so i figure, well, im paying for a car, but im not paying for anything else. i didnt want to get raped. i like to be able to lock some doors on the highway. 

when i was pregnant  we lived on a farm.....  water from a well;  heat from a wood stove;   through my pregnancy we showered outside, using water heated with solar energy.  we ate all our own vegetables.  when my daughter was born i washed her little cloth diapers out by hand and dried them by the woodstove.  i loved living there. it was incredibly pleasant.

i try my very best to be very conscious of my impact on the world around me. within that, there is only so much each of us can do. as long as each of us is doing what we can within this infrastructure, which makes living consciously -extremely- difficult,  i think that has to be enough. if you know and dont do -anything- at all, then yes,  you can take some of the 'blame', though i prefer the word responsibility, should you wish.


I blame too.  It helps to blame, I think.  It puts the onus somewhere instead of just letting that onus float around oblivia, like a confused moth.

well, there is still an implication (kind of floating around, like a confused moth) that there is something incorrect about the whole concept at all............. i dont 'blame' becuase it does anything for me.  :}  i 'blame' if you want to call it that, (but i really prefer the term responsibility), becuase i wish to see people take responsibility, and i wish to see mistakes corrected. and i think that not calling it as i see it, is a form of enabling and denial. usually i just keep my opinions to myself though beucase they arent very popular and i already know that. 


But blame me too, ok, because I've contributed too.  I'm still contributing this very minute by typing here and I will continue to use energy.....derived from fossil fuels, much of it, in one way or another, for my selfish comforts, until something, hopefully much less harmful, comes along.
It only seems fair to take my share of the blame. 


well, you are right. to the extent that people know and dont act, they share -resonsibility-.   anyone who understands the issues as much as they are able, and doesnt do everything -possible- to help, not heroic just -possible-, including speaking up and telling the truth as they see it,  then yes they are involved and bear some responsibility.   im not saying they should do anything crazy or impossible.........  im saying, its just good to be aware and know the truth, even if what you can do may be small.   we must function within our infrastructure. (otherwise you get arrested or committed. believe me, i know.)



We definately need new sources of energy.  .....
But someone on the bus....on the way back south...just another person.....had answers.

He said:

"They (the oil companies) are aware they have about 25 years worth of oil sand left so they are developing alternatives but they won't say what those might be because they want the pick of the market, the most profitable alternative, the first dibs etc".
.......

Better blame those Egyptians for the increased hurricanes too because my bet is....they don't worry about wasting fossil fuel much.  Not at a measley 4 cents.

The corruption extends past the governments, is my best bet.


well you know.....  the people who are really 'at fault' down deep are the global corporations that are profiting off of all of this. imo of course. of course im sure its no accident that both reagan and bushes have personal connections to said energy companies. you know. that is the big picture.




I guess what I'm saying is that it isn't fair to try to pin the blame on any one entity, person, group or country.

We are all to blame.  The onus has a home.  It's not a moth from oblivia.


i never thought it was from oblivia! :} im totally and completely clear on what -i- think is contributing to all this on a deeper level.  im not at all unclear. :}


We elect to use energy, we elect to enjoy comforts and we elect our governments, hoping to continue to enjoy those comforts and....we aren't happy when they are corrupt (as if there is such a thing as a government completely corruption-free.....hahahahahaha....now that is silly!! )...



we can only work within the infrastructure that exists..... we can only vote for who there is to vote for; we can only do so much. hopefully, we will all do as much as humanly possible, with the knowlege that we have, and the abilities we have.  with the knowlege that nothing on this earth is perfect, and we each bear RESPONSIBILITY for the reality around us however big or small.

im not interested in looking in -anyones- closets. to me thats beside the point.

i think we are pandered to. i think we dont even know what could be possible with the resources that we have. i think that those in control, which are largely corporations at this stage imo that i personally believe control -all- the various bushes,  are offering us a choice between baloney and spam, and pretty shiny treats to keep us form complaining. they dont want us to know theres plenty of good meat and real good things in the back room and they arent letting us even know about.

how can people choose better, if they dont even know there is something better there?

i think part of being honest is saying what i think and feel, although mostly i know its a minority position, so as i said, i usualy dont go there. but sometimes, people do have to stand up and say what they see. it keeps things from going wrong the next time. that isnt 'blame' which has a connotation of being useless and non productive. that is responsibility that creates productivity and chance for change.  i see this as a much bigger issue than just anything that happened with 'the rescue' which has already been roundly critiqued as vunil has said. thats just a small part, i think that will come out in the future debates that its actually all part of a much deeper social and environmental issue,  at least i hope that it does. that would be productive and useful.

[Sallying Forth]

... well I am simply not on the same wavelength as the responders to this thread.

Could you be more specific? 

I THINK what was meant by lack of apathy is the outpouring of caring for the victims by the posters here, and by the citzenry at large. 

But I THINK what you are feeling was apathetic was the rescue response toward the victims, which was too slow.

Is this right?  And you are not feeling you are on the same wavelength as folks here because there is less emphasis on the victims in the posts than you would like/expect?  That last one is a venture because I honestly don't know.  Help?

None of the above. I simply posted this thread because I could identify with being thoroughly discarded and thrown away. That is what happened to me in my childhood and what appeared to be happening to the survivors of Hurricane Katrina.

Then the posts became about something else ... most of which I haven't read.


I am in toxic goo too deep to read anything much right now. I wish it would go away and come again some other day. But it is here to stay UNTIL as the characters in my book say "You deal with it." I guess I ought to read my own book more often.  <smirk>

[d'smom]

I think d's mom is reacting to that accusation because it makes people who are trying to understand what went wrong in the rescue sound really nutty.  (i.e., Blaming someone for a hurricane! Pretty disfunctional.  Must be a coping mechanism or something else odd.)

just to be done with this and move on ------ yes that was what i was reacting to.  i didnt like the feeling people were ascribing motives to others, or putting words in their mouth re: their individual reaction.  it -felt- condescending and dismissive.  but, seeing jay letterman last night and all his jokes on it, im reassured its entirely sunk into the popular culture.  you cant make jokes about something people dont all secretly know is the case.

so we could call the rescue issues moot for sure...... but it would be great if people could continue to talk about all their varying emotions regarding the whole situation, and everything it brings up in all of us for all these reasons, without being criticised or 'shamed' as stormy would say.

mp- i agree with you re: all of it!

sf - ok back to the original focus of your thread.  ==>>

[Stormchild]

I've been away for a couple of days - job eating my life and when I've been home I've been pretty much glued to the hurricane coverage - so this may be off key by now, but -

I have a question - and I'm using the words 'you' and 'we' in a purely rhetorical sense in what follows.

It seems to me that most people believe in 'cause and effect'. Things don't just happen at random. You drop a brick and it hits your foot and you break a toe and go to the ER. You reward a drama queen (or king) with attention and coddling when they act out, instead of setting limits, and you get more acting out from the drama queen (or king). You eat a lot and don't exercise, you experience an increase in girth, with the health problems that causes, which can be fatal. You exercise a lot and don't eat, you end up with the health problems that causes - which can also be fatal. And so on.

In other words, actions have consequences.

The thing is, this is just as true of the actions or inactions of powerful people as of less powerful ones. Just as true of the actions or inactions of a group of people as of individuals. And people do act, or fail to act, as a group. And powerful people do exercise power, or fail to exercise it, with shocking inappropriateness.

We seem extraordinarily willing to set aside that simple concept at times like this. As though there was a rule in force that said: we must never think critically in a crisis, instead we must brand any attempt to determine cause and effect as 'witchhunts', 'blaming' etc. In other words: God forbid we should ever, ever, ever actually learn anything from our experiences.

I have seen this happen during large tragedies and small. And I really do think that it is possible to pull together to resolve a catastrophe, while at the same time looking dispassionately for the real origins of that catastrophe, and dealing in a solid and adult manner with those origins in order to prevent a recurrence.

Don't mean to sound snippy - I'm pressed for time and won't be able to log in again until tonight, so I'm a bit terse. And I did want to say this sooner rather than later, because I think it's important.

Peace, all.

[Sela]

Hi again all:

Anna, I think we agree on a lot more than we disagree on and I respect your opinion and you for speaking out.

well, there is still an implication (kind of floating around, like a confused moth) that there is something incorrect about the whole concept at all............. i dont 'blame' becuase it does anything for me.  :}  i 'blame' if you want to call it that, (but i really prefer the term responsibility), becuase i wish to see people take responsibility, and i wish to see mistakes corrected. and i think that not calling it as i see it, is a form of enabling and denial.

Two thingys here, though, kind of wanting clarification.  One is that I wasn't implying anything and I'm sorry it may have seemed that way.  The other is that that is one of the good things about the blaming, placing responsibility, the coping mechanism of assigning fault....I agree.....it helps to end enabling and denial and it might even help good changes to occur.  The part I was disagreeing about, mostly, I guess, was this:

i hope the whole world is finally made aware of this and that bush is shamed in front of the world as -i- feel he should have been, for -years- now...

Your resentments toward Bush are your own feelings, which are valid and I don't want to discount those in any way.  But I just see it as unfair to put the responsibility for the whole disaster squarely in any one's lap, so I pointed out my responsibility/fault/blame too.  Mine may not be equal to Bush's or that of some big greedy oil company big wig, but I will have to take my part of the shame, if it's being doled out.

i -also- happen to have emotional feelings related to the poor citizens who are paying for it, as poor citizens always must.

I think this is a wonderful thing.  For you, for me, for SallyF and for all who are experiencing this, as awful as it might feel, as upsetting as it is, as many triggers as the whole situation might snap......if we didn't feel strong emotions when we see people going through such horror, or when we consider contributing factors....we'd be selfish, insensitive, uncaring and numb.  Yucky!  Just wanted to let you know that that's what I'm trying to communicate, with both feet in my mouth as usual, that my opinion is.....it's ok to feel.....as a matter of fact.....it's what probably also causes good changes to happen.  Without all of those strong feelings.....no one would notice the turmoil and nothing would ever get assigned or fixed.   That would be truly apathetic.

Sorry to have done my part of hijacking your thread SallyF and thankyou for unlocking it.  I can relate to being discarded and I feel for you for this having triggered so much pain for you.  On the other hand, I think it's a good thing too because that pain, those feelings of being discarded need to be realized and released and acknowledged.  Maybe then that will help to relieve some of the discomfort of the past.  So the good thing is that you are aware of those raw feelings and expressing some of that here.  Good for you!

For the present, please know that no one here discards you.  

((((((((((((((((((((SallyF))))))))))))))))

Sela

[vunil]

d's mom-- along those lines, check out the onion today (www.theonion.com).  Really funny.  Interesting how humor is a reflection of the national zeitgeist, more so than many other mediums.

[amethyst]

I had no idea that this thread was supposed to be about one member's personal voicelessness, so I am going to continue to post about Hurricane Katrina and what it has brought to my attention....not speaking for anyone else here.

I do blame the Bush administration for incompetence, not caring before the fact, and for shuffling resources to special interests that could have been used for the greater good. The administration can say they care but the fact is that the admin has repeatedly cut programs for the environment, the poor, education, the cities, housing and health care, mass transit, the states, and new sources of energy in order to give corporate tax breaks and tax breaks for the wealthy. As a recovering dysfunctional person, I need to look at what people do and not what they say. The administration has also used tremendous fear and propaganda to cow people and shut them up...Karl Rove, who obviously learned much from Machievelli and Joseph Goebbles, is an architect of that. I have no illusions about the intent of this administration and without forcing them to take responsibility, nothing will change. Maybe blame is a loaded word, but in this case, without blame, nothing is going to change.

Today, Laura Bush says that she finds that talking about race in this situation as disgusting. "She described as "disgusting" comments by rapper Kanye West and Democratic chairman Howard Dean blaming her husband for the disproportionate numbers of black hurricane victims.

She told an interviewer with American Urban Radio Networks, that Bush "cares about everyone" in the country. She said she knows that because she lives with him."

What she has failed to address is that the administration, including her husband, do have not acted in a caring way about the poor in this country and that African-Americans make up a disproportionate share of the poor. I agree that this should not become an issue solely about race...the issue is poverty vs. untrammelled wealth and power. But the fact remains that most people who are poor are people of color. What needs to happen is that poor people, regardless of hue, need to unite and demand that they be given a fair share from now on.

Then here's Barbara Bush- who also said it was scary that so many of the evacuees want to stay in Texas. "Finally, we have discovered the roots of George W. Bush's "compassionate conservatism."

On the heels of the president's "What, me worry?" response to the death, destruction and dislocation that followed upon Hurricane Katrina comes the news of his mother's Labor Day visit with hurricane evacuees at the Astrodome in Houston.

Commenting on the facilities that have been set up for the evacuees -- cots crammed side-by-side in a huge stadium where the lights never go out and the sound of sobbing children never completely ceases -- former First Lady Barbara Bush concluded that the poor people of New Orleans had lucked out.

"Everyone is so overwhelmed by the hospitality. And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this, this is working very well for them," Mrs. Bush told American Public Media's "Marketplace" program, before returning to her multi-million dollar Houston home.

On the tape of the interview, Mrs. Bush chuckles audibly as she observes just how great things are going for families that are separated from loved ones, people who have been forced to abandon their homes and the only community where they have ever lived, and parents who are explaining to children that their pets, their toys and in some cases their friends may be lost forever. Perhaps the former first lady was amusing herself with the notion that evacuees without bread could eat cake.

At the very least, she was expressing a measure of empathy commensurate with that evidenced by her son during his fly-ins for disaster-zone photo opportunities." http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20050906/cm_thenation/120080

Dubya has publicly stated, many times, he is much closer to his mother in his beliefs. Guess the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree. Today the White House is saying that Mother Bush's remarks are "personal." WTF does that mean? Of course, they are personal....but her son and company so far have acted as if they share them.

The spin machine is out in force telling us that we are terrible to be criticizing the administration at this time. I don't think people are going to shut up and go away on this. We need to be looking at what we can do to right the terrible injustices in this country. I am not shutting up. Also there is an attempt to blame the local governments, both of which were terribly underfunded. I wouldn't care if Nagin and Blanco were Republican or Dems...the fact is that Lousiana, while absolutely vital to our economy and national security, has been treated like the bottom of the barrel. By the way, Blanco did declare a state of emergency on 8/26. I would say that she was with the program. Ray Nagin saved at least 80,000 lives by evacuating. He did not have the funding or the resources to get everyone out in time. Interestingly, neither Nagin, a former VP at Cox Communications, nor Blanco, a former teacher, are political hacks.

Sadly, I am not surprised by what happened in NOLA. It was foreseen by anyone who had read any of the scientific or just general information articles regarding the delta. How can the admin say they couldn't have foreseen this? They are lying. Bush can't even answer if we are prepared for a terrorist attack or another disaster. Of course, we are not.

In AA, we say the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. If we shut up, play nice, don't criticize, don't work to fix what's wrong, we can expect the same results. This does need to be addressed right away because if there is another disaster, whether man made or natural, that occurs tomorrow, we can expect the same results. If we treat this as a one time occurence and don't work to address the underlying causes, it will happen again.

  

[miss piggy]

Hello everyone,

Thanks Sallying, for opening this thread back up.     Thanks to you we all got to talking about Katrina in whatever way we all needed to.

Amethyst: Wow, what a post.  Have you considered becoming a columnist of social commentary?  You are obviously paying close attention and have well thought out views.  Sorry if I missed what your occupation is if you said in another post or I skimmed over it. 

A friend of mine who is not american asked me if either race or poverty played a role in contributing to the hardships of the survivors, etc.  I feel that it is hard to separate the two, esp. in the deep South.  But I lean to the side of poverty.  I am heartened to hear commentators (on the calmer news broadcasts) report that Republicans are very upset by how things played out in the early days of the disaster.  I am also counting on the fact that many, many reporters were eyewitnesses and earwitnesses to this disaster and they are personally affected by this story.  They want accountability as much as we nonjournalists do and they're not going to let the apologists off the hook. 

I also believe that any disaster expert would have had their career cooked by this event.  I am not apologizing for Michael Brown, far from it.   Just saying that how big this disaster was and that's how important the job is.  I'm so glad they airlifted him outta there finally.  Who is that guy related to that they treat him with kid gloves?

The Barbara Bush comments took my breath away.  Talk about narcissism in action!  "This isn't so bad after all (redefining reality), in fact it's working out rather well."    Earth to Barbara!  The lack of urgency and complacency (i.e. no bad terrorists to blow up, no soldiers--yet--to clap on the back) is stupefying.  I guess there was no emblematic moment to embrace for re-election. 

My H and I were finally discussing all this tonight (we're on different schedules).  We're both sort the same.  We take in the news and video images.  Ruminate until the emotions catch up.  I want to scream at the TV but don't want to scare my kids.  Thank goodness for this discussion!

MP