Author Topic: trying to decide to leave or not  (Read 3287 times)

luvmyjacks

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trying to decide to leave or not
« on: September 08, 2005, 02:54:17 PM »
hi everyone,

I have posted before about my n mom and the pain in my life.  I received so much support and helpful words of advice etc.  (I have appreciated greatly!!!!! Btw ) I thought that even though my dh is not a N that the people here may be able to help.....

We both came from similar backgrounds my mom is N is mom is bpd.  he grew up scared of his mom, she beat him, she made him responsible for her the house and he felt like if he did everything perfect that he may be able to prevent another episode of hers. 

I don't know if any of you have heard of imago therapy  (i think that's what it is called) it is the belief that you hook up with people that will recreate the relationship w/ opposite sex parent in hopes to do it right - well that's what I understood about it - I hope I got that right

Dh must have seen similarities in me that are like his mom (SCARY).  But me coming from a N mom it does make some sense I guess.

At the beginning of our relationship I was very needy and clingy....I would cry when he had to leave to go to work or school.  I needed constant attention.

He would take care of me , cleaning house, making food etc
I never did feel like I could ever get enough - he never opened up to me, etc.  I didn't know what I was missing but I was unhappy

I went to therapy for 3 yrs....got the help and healing I needed about my mom and childhood
I had great self esteem, became strong and independent

I'm still happy with myself but I'm still unhappy with my "relationship"

We have been in counseling together - they all have said the same things - that he needs individual therapy - he would go for a few sessions and quit - each therapist would recommend he see someone to get on a med for depression and anxiety - he would reluctantly do that but stop the med after a few weeks of inconsistently taking it - never really giving the med a real chance - but deciding that it didn't work

We separated 2 years ago after my brother died - I had an affair - I ended up in the hospital b/c of harassment received from n mom and dh about what I was going through with bro.'s suicide
I ended up back w/ dh b/c I felt he was all that I had after my n mom went on her campaign to ruin me in everyone’s eyes, to convince everyone that I was evil etc. 

Now I'm in the same position that I was 2 yrs ago.  I've never really been happy with the relationship as I feel I'm the only one in it.  He continues to react to life and to me as if he is still w/ his mom, like he is walking on eggshells.  He doesn't know how to be intimate emotionally, physically, or verbally.  He will try to "start things" in the bedroom but acts uncomfortable and mechanical.  Days go by with out more than a few words.  I am a stay-at-home mom and he gets home around 8pm he almost always has work to do at home, I go to bed alone, I get up alone

I have been getting worse over the last few years – not depression – but socially more withdrawn and mild agoraphobia –

I want to get better – I’m not sure I can do that here with him

I don’t think he can heal with me here either.  He keeps concentrating on me and my happiness and the marriage and what little things he can do to “make it better”
The truth though is that we will always come back to this point b/c what I’m missing is another person to share my life with.  He doesn’t bring that to the table.

I’m not sure if anyone can even understand what I’m talking about.  It’s so hard to grasp.

I would really appreciate anyone else’s experiences that they may be willing to share that may help me figure this out.  I don’t feel like this is a “normal” marital issue and I’m not really sure anyone would understand what I mean.  That is why I am posting here.  If anyone can understand it would be the posters here, right. =)

Thank you so much to everyone.


mum

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Re: trying to decide to leave or not
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2005, 03:15:45 PM »
Hello, Luvmyjacks.
I'm sorry you are struggling right now.  I don't have a lot of advice, but I did notice in your post that you mention him wanting to "fix" things for you, make things right etc. Although that is a noble intention, nobody can fix anyone else, and no relationship can be "fixed"  without working out our internal issues. There is a bit of ownership that has to be "copped" to here. Our lives have to be dealt with independant of one another.  Along side of, perhaps, in the spirit of everyone owning their own decisions and perhaps with teamwork, etc, but still as independant souls. We only have influence over ourselves. It's easy to fall into the trap of looking outside of oneself to find peace and equilibrium, but it cannot be found there. Perhaps this is why you are uncomfortable. I know I would be.
     You need to take care of yourself, and your husband needs to do the same. It sounds cold, but it is (in my opinion) the only way to truly experience love.  If your husband will not/cannot wrap his head around healing his own issues, and continues to sadly focus on you and your happiness, perhaps you need to state your own intention and let him own his life. Then see where that brings you. Codependence breeds/is a lack of respect. Independence is lovely.
Bless you.

longtire

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Re: trying to decide to leave or not
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2005, 07:22:59 PM »
luvmyjacks, I have been in a similar position.  I married my wife about 17 years ago and her behavior abruptly changed from adoring to distant and unsatisfiable.  Looking back there were signs, but I had never been taught or learned to see them.  I believe my wife has Borderline PD or something close to it.  She is more "acting in" and passive-aggressive than acting out.  Once we were married it felt like there was a 10' pole tied between our waists.  I would move toward her and she would either retreat or attack to keep the distance between us.  When I gave up confused and hurt, she would come after me until when I stopped, then she stopped.  When I tried to move closer again, she would back off again.  Over and over.  I called it the dance of death.  Of course, she always blamed me for all the problems, since she is "perfect."  It turns out that it is fairly common for people with BPD to either split back and forth between close and far, or to have no comfortable distance between too close and too far, as I believe my wife does.  In other words, I am either too close for her comfort, too far away (abandoning), or both at the same time!  I finally woke up and realized that I didn't cause this behavior in her and that there is nothing I can do about it.  It is her issue and only she can address it.

I have been separated for several months and it has really helped me clear my head.  Being in htat kind of situation is crazymaking and I couldn't think straight (or sleep) while I was in the midst of it.  Having more perspective now, I plan to move forward with a divorce.  I am just not willing to keep trying any longer.  I did it for 17 years without any positive results and it is time for me to move on.

I had to face some difficult things about my own life before I could even move out.  I was bouncing back and forth mercilessly until I did.  I don't much more time at the moment, but wanted to leave you with a couple of thoughts.

Going back to your H because you felt like he was the only thing you had sounds pretty co-dependent to me.  I should know, I'm a big coey myself.  You might try reading Moldie Beatty's (sp?) "Codependent No More."  It sounds as though you H may be as well.  Trying to please your partner to avoid facing your own issues and taking care of yourself.  That sounds a LOT like me.  Also, I would suggest a separation before making a big, difficult decision like that.  Get out on your own and live your own life for a while.  Even if you don't have your H anymore, you will always have yourself, and can never be separated. :)  If you get better away from him, then that may be your answer.  If things seem worse, either the problems were yours to deal with all along or you are just not ready to part ways permanently.  Either way, you'll know in your own time.

longtire

- The only thing that was ever really wrong with me was that I used to think there was something wrong with *me*.  :)

luvmyjacks

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longtire
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2005, 07:49:12 PM »
that is really weird how you picked up that my H was like your wife.  He used to do the same exact thing.  I called it "cat & mouse".  I finally decided that I would stop the game myself by doing neither the chasing or backing off.  I simply informed him that I was here and if and when he wanted me I was here.  It wasn't that hard after I stopped taking it personally that it was HIS problem, not mine. 

Obviously I'm still not happy but I'm not driving myself crazy trying to figure out what I can do differently or banging my head against the wall looking for affection that isn't there.

longtire

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Re: longtire
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2005, 11:07:13 PM »
that is really weird how you picked up that my H was like your wife.  He used to do the same exact thing.  I called it "cat & mouse".  I finally decided that I would stop the game myself by doing neither the chasing or backing off.  I simply informed him that I was here and if and when he wanted me I was here.  It wasn't that hard after I stopped taking it personally that it was HIS problem, not mine.
luvmyjacks, I am glad to find that I was not too harsh in my previous reply.  I was rushed and started second guessing myself after I had posted.  In any case, I intended to help, not criticize, if any of it came across that way.  If not, then I am just being too sensitive (and coey  :?).

As others have written here:  "It is amazing how all these people seem to work from the same playbook."  Your description certainly did feel familiar to me.  It seems the only way to get out of this kind of situation is to refuse to play, recognize it has nothing to do with you, and hold the person responsible for their behavior.

Quote from: luvmyjacks
Obviously I'm still not happy but I'm not driving myself crazy trying to figure out what I can do differently or banging my head against the wall looking for affection that isn't there.
Yes, once I accepted that she would act the way she chose without any regard to me or what I did (or didn't do), I felt the first freedom in years.  I didn't have to work like hell only to get more abuse for my trouble and then to be blamed for the whole thing anyway.  I sure don't miss that at all.
longtire

- The only thing that was ever really wrong with me was that I used to think there was something wrong with *me*.  :)

Sallying Forth

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Re: trying to decide to leave or not
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2005, 11:11:12 PM »
You might try reading the book Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft. It can help you sort out things, see what's really going on with your h's behavior and help you make a decision. It's one of the best books I've read about abusive relationships and how to deal with them.


I am in a similar situation right now. I am mostly separated from my h. During this time he has gone through an abuser program and then follow up sessions. He is also planning on entering therapy AGAIN. About 10 months ago I gave him the ultimatum, change or this is it. He got the message and got into a program.

My h never shared on a deep level until he got into the abuser program. Now he's learning to do that with a group of men who all have the same problems.

I don't know where my relationship is headed at this point. And when I pray all I hear when I ask what I should do about my marriage is, "Wait." So that is what I am doing. Meanwhile I am getting stronger everyday emotionally, spiritually and physically.
The truth is in me.[/color]

I'm Sallying Forth on a new adventure! :D :D :D

Plucky

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Re: trying to decide to leave or not
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2005, 02:02:45 AM »
Hello luv,
your husband sounds like mine, except that he never takes care of me in any way.  He is rather distant.  For years I tried everything to get closer.   Of course I thought it was me.   

Finally I realised he had issues in his family of origin and began to bring that up.  Up until then the fiction had been that his family was perfect and mine was dysfunctional.   He still is not able to admit that out loud, but he no longer reacts with obvious denial to that concept.   Getting that out there was key, and I did it for me, but he benefitted.

I felt completely alone.  No talk, no touch, no sharing, no companion.  He was much more passionate about his hobbies than about me or the marriage.  Any necessary communication was so charged that we both limited talking to the absolute essentials.   I got to the point where I was so lonely and so desperate, I finally just decided to end the relationship.  While I had thought and even talked about it for a long time, I finally really got ready to go.  I sarted making plans and talking to him about them.

At that point he revealed that he was a cutter (by showing me his bloody arms).   Apparently he had been cutting for a while and I just didn't know.   Once he had gotten me to shut up about leaving by cutting - I thought, if I leave he will kill himself, either fast or by drinking himself to death.  I didn't want my children's father to end up that way.

The second time he did something that required a visit to the ER.  But by that point, I did not let it change my mind.  I told him that he needed to get therapy and finally he agreed.   I didn't keep discussing leaving, I just thought I'd wait to see what happened.  He has been in therapy and says he likes it.  For a few weeks he was even improving and acting empathetic.  He was communicating more.   Now he seems to have backslid a bit but I guess that happens. 
I'm just taking it day by day.   

I guess the point of this longwinded post if that nothing changed until I was really ready to leave.    I mean, I was ready to sell the house and live in a one room cabin with the kids if the divorce was a financial disaster.  I was ready to go to work and leave them with someone else all day.  I was ready to deal with their feelings about divorce.   I didn't care what remarks I would get from my N mother.  I knew I might be poor in my old age.  I knew I might be alone forever.  I was ready.  And when he knew it, he at least made a step.

Good luck.
Plucky

luvmyjacks

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Re: trying to decide to leave or not
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2005, 12:16:16 PM »
nothing changed until I was really ready to leave. I mean, I was ready to sell the house and live in a one room cabin with the kids if the divorce was a financial disaster. I was ready to go to work and leave them with someone else all day. I was ready to deal with their feelings about divorce. I didn't care what remarks I would get from my N mother. I knew I might be poor in my old age. I knew I might be alone forever. I was ready.

I am getting there myself to be honest plucky.

thanks for all the support everyone!
thanks for sharing w/ me
hugs, luvmyjacks

luvmyjacks

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Re: trying to decide to leave or not
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2005, 12:18:43 PM »
sorry about above post
my first time trying to use a quote :oops:

i meant to quote plucky
nothing changed until I was really ready to leave. I mean, I was ready to sell the house and live in a one room cabin with the kids if the divorce was a financial disaster. I was ready to go to work and leave them with someone else all day. I was ready to deal with their feelings about divorce. I didn't care what remarks I would get from my N mother. I knew I might be poor in my old age. I knew I might be alone forever. I was ready.

and then respond w/

I am getting there myself to be honest plucky.

thanks for all the support everyone!
thanks for sharing w/ me
hugs, luvmyjacks


amethyst

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Re: trying to decide to leave or not
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2005, 07:52:20 PM »
Hi (((Luv))),

I have refrained from posting on this thread because this is something that I still struggle with. I read both of Harriet Lerner's books, The Dance of Anger and The Dance of Intimacy, and really did not find any anwers other than to take care of my own needs instead of depending on others to do so, which I already was doing pretty well by the time I got to those books. Neither book answers the question of what to do when you find yourself in a relationship that feels as if there is a giant chasm no matter how much you work to bridge the gap...the only answer was to take care of your needs or to leave if the other partner shows no willingness to change.

My first marriage was somewhat similar to what you are describing, only it was compounded by spousal abuse. I left. I am much better for it. I then had to work on what there was in me that didn't really want intimacy....and why I kept picking men that were incapable of it...and who were abusive to boot. It meant going within and bringing the dysfunction to light...my own dysfunction. It also meant getting to know those things about myself that were not necessarily dysfunctional but that were different. 

One of the best things I ever did was to accept that I am by nature an introvert. I am overwhelmed when I have to deal large groups of people all day long. I have to have time alone to regroup. It's almost as if I need to detoxify. That doesn't mean that I don't love people and that I don't do well in groups or one on one, but I need more alone time than most people do. It took me years to accept that it was ok to be an introvert. Most people are extroverted and introversion is almost considered a character defect in our society, something wierd or not acceptable, and I had internalized that message. It was finally explained to me that extroverts get their energy from being with others and that introverts get their energy from being alone. Being an introvert does not mean that I am a "loner" or that I don't want intimacy. I even love parties, concerts and crowds...in reasonablel doses. I need to know that I can leave when I start to feel the energy drain.

Once I had accepted that I was an introvert, I knew better than pursue an intimate committed relationship with somebody who was other-directed. I have some wonderful male friendships with extroverts, but 24 hours of living with them would drive me absolutely bonkers. I just don't have the stamina to keep up their incredibly active social lives. It doesn't mean they are sick or wrong...they are doing what comes naturally to them. However, had I married one of these guys, I would be doing the dance of anger and intimacy in a very sick way. I would not be able to meet their needs and vice versa.

I also accepted that I am a nerd. I am not saying that disrespectfully. I am proud of my nerditude. Accepting my ingrained nerditude meant that I was free to pursue my intellectual and artistic interests, and some amazing things have happened because of that. Since I admitted to nerditude, I have made some wonderful friendships with other nerds...and we do enjoy boucing the ideas around, usually one on one. Being a nerd means that I shouldn't seek to form intimate friendships and relationships with people who are really into spectator sports or who are really into fashion. Before that realization, I would have tried to. Doesn't mean I can't be friendly and enjoy some fashion and some sports, but intimacy is not likely to occur. 

I eventually married another introvert who is also a nerd. When he met me, he thought I was an extrovert because of my friendliness and social skills, but once we became close friends, I told him that I was anything but the other-directed person he thought he was seeing. He said,"Well, you completely fooled me." and we howled with laughter. We do very well together because we know to give eachother lots of space. Yet, it is the most intimate relationship I have ever had. We can talk about anything...or we can sit together in silence for hours immersed in our own books. This isn't to say that we don't have some huge arguments and negotiations. We regard our relationship as a work in progress...and we are always tweaking the need we have for space, time, energy....and trying to honor our individual differences.

One conflict we have had is that I love music. I feel bereft if I don't listen to a goodly amount of music every day. To my hubby, who is much more high-strung than I am, music can almost feel like an assault if he is trying to concentrate or hold a conversation. I have a home office which he is welcome to visit, but if we need to talk about something, we either leave the office or turn off the music. On the other hand, unattended TV drives me nuts. When I am downstairs the TV is off, unless we are watching it. We don't watch much TV, but my hubby had the habit of leaving it on...and to me it felt just as assaultive as the music felt to him.

Right now we need to work on carving out an individual hidey-hole for my husband. He needs his own space, but it cannot be within my office because of the music issue. We don't have much room. I don't want to just start moving furniture because that gets my hubby all discombulated and I have to sit on my tendency to rearrange everything, which I did for years until I finally realized that it drove him up the wall. Oh, we know that things will never be perfect and we laugh about it, but we are always tweaking things a little bit.       
« Last Edit: September 09, 2005, 07:58:24 PM by amethyst »

luvmyjacks

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amethyst
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2005, 01:32:25 PM »
thank you for replying amethyst (not trying to discount other responces at all)

I am so happy for you that you and your husband have found one another.
I don't really think that my problem with my husband is the intravert vs extrovert issue.

My husband is an intravert and I'm an extrovert.  As time goes on I'm turning more towards intravert type behavior and he is turning towards more extrovert behavior.

I think that simply is because of all the tragedy we have experienced over the last 7 years we've been together.  He has found that he really does feel better when he has opportunity to talk to others and get feedback.  I have experienced some real betrayal and have become less tollerant to noise and get over stimulated and stressed out around people I don't know etc.



I have had to put the problems with my husband aside for a while.
I just found out that my daughter has been experiencing signs of depression.  I just found out by finally getting her to talk to me and tell me that she "doesn't want to exist" that she has always felt this way.
With my family history of suicide.....this is something that I'm going to take seriously and get her an appointment to see a psychitrist to see if they would want to get her some medicine and get her started to see a therapist.  Right now, I think the best thing to do is concentrate on all of our mental and emotional heath.
DH did go to a new therapist and has started to journal again and I think has an appointment to go to see someone about getting back on a medication.  He says that he does want to heal.
I am going to see about going back to therapy also. (I'm already on a med which I've been on for 1 1/2 years and it helps)

I am going to put the relationship and happiness/unhappiness in it on the backburner while we all get our individual emotional & mental needs addressed.

I'm really glad that I talked to my daughter and found this out before taking steps to leave my husband as that would be a huge stress on my daughter. 

In case any of you are wondering....my husband and I don't fight around her at all....we don't have fights very often.
My daughter's depression is either or a combination of two factors.  One being the family history of mental illness and two; experiencing the illness and death of a sibling at a young age.  She is 9 now and her sister died when she was 4.


Plucky

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Re: trying to decide to leave or not
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2005, 09:44:24 PM »
Quote
In case any of you are wondering....my husband and I don't fight around her at all....we don't have fights very often.
My daughter's depression is either or a combination of two factors.  One being the family history of mental illness and two; experiencing the illness and death of a sibling at a young age.  She is 9 now and her sister died when she was 4.
Hello luv,
just because you don't fight out loud in front of your daughter does not mean she is unaware of the issues.  It might even be worse because she is not sure that the conflict/problem is real....maybe her imagination.  maybe it has to do with her, so you don't expose her to it. 
a short for time and therefore terse
Plucky

Chicken

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Re: trying to decide to leave or not
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2005, 05:21:03 AM »
ok, I am totally totally with Plucky here.  Luv, I recently had a breakthrough in counselling.  Basically I have been trying to come to the bottom of why I always find myself in abusive, unfulfilling relationships, where I feel lonely... 

...and the simple answer was, that all my childhood I watched my Mother in an unfulfilling marriage with my Father.  i watched my Mother put up with sh*t from my Father and not say anything.  She never assertive about her needs.  She allowed my Father to neglect her and her six children (one of whom was me)

My Father always did his own thing, he was a weekend alcoholic and in the evening , he would just come home and watch TV, and tell us to shut up.  My only interactions with my Father was "Hi" and "Bye" and his yelling at me to break up a fight.  He dumped six kids on my Mother and never held us, hugged, or kissed us.  He never came with us anywhere.  In fact I am trying hard trying to recall ever having a conversation with him!

Ok, the reason I am telling you this, is that as far as my Mother knew, us kids thought we lived in a harmonious atmosphere because they NEVER ever raised their voices to each other in front of the kids...

The truth of the matter was, and I can't speak for my brothers and sisters here, but one of those kids (me) watched and soaked up everything that was happening.  I felt my Mothers loneliness and frustration intensely without knowing the full story.  My Mother was so stressed and unhappy, and I watched as she put up with the neglect etc...  I not only watched but I grew up and replayed the scenario over and over and over again, this time I played Mum and I put up with my Boyfriends who were similiar to my Dad.

I am telling you, give a child one happy parent rather than two unhappy ones.  There was no happiness in my home.  You could cut the tension with a knife.  As soon as I was old enough to visit friends, i did.  I spent all my days in the neighbours house, so much so, that still today my neighbours joke that I was their adopted child.

Don't be fooled about how much the kids know.  It's not about how much they know anyway, they feel.  I think kids are more in tune with atmosphere and things unsaid than us adults.  You cannot pull the wool over their eyes.  Their little eyes and hearts take it all in...and you are showing them what to do with a relationship at a point like this.

Do the right thing for the kids.  Show them what courage is.  Show them the strength in saying NO...  or maybe someday, you will see them in the very same situation.  Break the cycle! 

Good Luck!

x Selkie x


Chicken

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Re: trying to decide to leave or not
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2005, 05:22:43 AM »
Quote
.  It might even be worse because she is not sure that the conflict/problem is real....maybe her imagination.  maybe it has to do with her, so you don't expose her to it. 

This really struck a chord with me, thank you Plucky

luvmyjacks

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feeling a little attacked
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2005, 05:13:08 PM »
I am very sure no one meant for me to feel this way....

I feel as though i am being told that I'm unaware but my relationship issues are affecting my daughter and making her feel depressed and suicidal......
that her sister's death is being discounted as well as the family history of depression, mental illness and suicide

My relationship issues are not anything close to similar to Selkie's parents'.  I am assertive about my needs.  my relationship issues really have NOTHING to do w/ daughter.....some parents tell their children about a separation or divorce and the children knew it was coming and are relieved - other times children are blown away and don't understand as they have not seen signs at all

the second category is where my daughter would fall

my husband and I are friends....we were best friends for 4 or 5 years before we started dating
we work and live rather harmoniously with one another - the problem is my desire for a more real deep emotional relationship

husband is involved w/ children and all other aspects of household matters (cooking, cleaning, entertainment, education, etc)

as far as medication for my daughter.....I didn't know whether she needed one or not... I just knew that I was going to do what ever was necessary to help her and focus on each of us (Dad, Mom, & daughter) getting whatever help we needed to be healthy and happy

having her parents separate right now is the opposite of what she needs right now; in her eyes mommy & daddy are fine and love each other and that a break up would be a huge disruption in her life.  A separation would cause many changes in her life, including another huge loss to her family unit that she cannot mentally or emotionally afford to go through.