Boundary setting vs attempts to change the N

[catlover]

Thank you so much to Dr. Grossman for this message board, and to the people who share on it.  I have been reading it voraciously for hours at a time yesterday and today.  As I wrote in another brief post, I began seeing a therapist recently because of my inability to make decisions or trust my own judgement, and during our last session (the night before last) she said my mom has a “narcissistic personality.”  I looked that up on the web the next day and was amazed and relieved to find a ton of stuff that I could relate to, especially on this message board.  I am so relieved to finally have some understanding of what has been going on all this time (my 34 years of life) with my mother, and that I’m not the only one who has endured this craziness.  (I also became panicked about the possibility that my husband is a narcissist, and/or that I am one too – but that’s another story.)  I have been in a 12-step recovery program for two years, and someone once described at a meeting that her mother had been diagnosed as psychotic.  I said that it would be a lot easier if my mother had been diagnosed that way, because then it would be clear what I was dealing with.  But now I find out that there IS a diagnosable mental illness, and even though it isn’t psychosis, it validates that SHE is CRAZY, not me!!!

My therapist gave me an assignment to develop a realistic vision for my relationship with my mother that involves protecting myself, using boundaries.  I have been VERY impressed with the ways people on this message board have described using boundaries with their N mothers.  However, I feel that I have something of a dilemma (or maybe I’m actually lucky) because my N mother is more than happy to set up gigantic boundaries between us, by completely cutting off contact with me at the slightest “provocation” (and you all know that when I say “provocation” I mean simply not handling her with kid gloves).  I guess this is because years ago she discarded me when at 13 I refused to be her source of N Supply for awhile, and she quickly developed another source in the form of my two half brothers, who are now 16 and 18 years old.  I feel like I am being a bit narcissistic here, but I feel the need to tell my story now that I have found a place where I know it will be understood!!  I’m also looking for some feedback on the “cutoff” versus “boundaries” issue, so I hope you will bear with the following story.

My mother was 19 when I was born, and, as she told me many times while I was growing up, I was the result of my father putting a hole in his rubber to force her to marry him, since abortions weren’t legal then (as she has also pointed out several times).  He left when I was 2 years old, never to return or provide any financial support.  Who knows whether he would have done this if my mother wasn’t so nutso, but in any event I was never allowed to care that he abandoned us, because my caring would reflect poorly on her.

My mother was determined not to let me “ruin her life.”  She wanted to go to college to prove to her alcoholic father that she was “smart,” as he had told her countless times that she was stupid (which, in many ways she IS, but that is emotionally not mentally).  So, that’s what she did, never mind that she had a child who might need clothing, toys, attention, or a safe place to live (I always at least had enough to eat – thank God for school lunches!!).  

I have described our poverty to people: how we lived in crummy neighborhoods where I was afraid to leave the house, how other kids made fun of my clothes.  But what I could never describe or explain fully (until now!) was how this was all made much worse by the fact that my mother showed no sympathy whatsoever.  If I said something about needing clothes, she would scream at me “What, do you want to be a fashion plate?!” or “What do you think I am, money bags?!”  If she was in a really good mood she might say “You shouldn’t care what those kids think.  They’re obviously shallow if they’re judging you by your appearance and you shouldn’t want to be their friends anyway” (i.e., your feelings are stupid).  I’ve always felt like such a piece of crap when other people who grew up in poverty (usually people on TV or autobiographical movies/novels) said, “Oh, we were poor, but that didn’t matter, we were happy,” because it DID matter, and I WASN’T happy, so maybe I WAS shallow.  But, as I said, it was the lack of caring that made it infinitely worse.

It’s interesting that one of my mother’s ways of being “unique” is different from most narcissists that I’ve read about in that she made a huge point of NOT caring about appearances.  I just this minute realized that being very concerned about APPEARING not to care about appearances may just be another form of being concerned about appearances!!

I read on another website that children are often used to settle the narcissist’s “score” with the world, and that was certainly the case with my mother.  I became an extension of her “smartness.”  She was so proud of what an intelligent, precocious, well-behaved little girl she had, which proved how smart and what a great mother she was!!!  Also, it proved that she didn’t need my lousy, no good father; she could do a great job without him.  I’ve often thought I shouldn’t feel so bad (i.e., what’s wrong with me that I feel so bad) because my mother didn’t insult me; she didn’t tell me I was stupid or ugly or whatever, and she didn’t physically abuse me.  If she HAD done these things, it would have meant that she was a bad mother, and one of her points of pride has always been what a GREAT mother she is, despite all the hardships she’s had to endure, blah blah blah, wah wah.  She has said to me on numerous occasions that she just can’t understand why I am so unsure of myself and why I’ve put up with verbal and emotional abuse from boyfriends (she recognizes others’ abuse of me but not her own – amazing!) because, after all, she always told me how smart and capable I was.  I’ve wanted to scream, “But you TREATED me like a piece of crap – like my feelings and needs were NOTHING!!  I’m supposed to believe what you said over what you always DID?!!”

Well, here are some other examples of what she DID (as opposed to what she said):
- Brought a series of live-in boyfriends and one-night stands through the house, with no concern for whether I might get attached to the boyfriends or disturbed by the strangers I could hear having sex with her in the next room
- Left me with inappropriate “hippie” babysitters who had sex in front of me
- Sat me in the back seat on long winding roads and smoked cigarettes when she knew I was carsick; would rather let me feel sick for hours and throw up than spend a couple bucks on Dramamine
- Wouldn’t stop making out with her boyfriend to take me to the outhouse when we were at a cabin in the woods at night when I was five years old and I ended up messing my pants
- Bought me a needle for my turntable as a birthday present when I was about ten, but didn’t know how to install it and didn’t bother finding out.  Bought herself a new needle which she installed on her own turntable at the same time.
- Did not defend me at all when my stepfather hit me and call me a slut and a thief when I was 16 (they got married when I was 15)
- Refused to let me buy a car with my own money and pay for my own insurance when I was 17 because I might get in an accident that the insurance wouldn’t fully cover and they might have to pay for it and lose their house (and they certainly wouldn’t drive me anywhere)
- Didn’t bother finding out what kind of person I was living with or where I was living when I moved into a trailer with a heroine addict when I was 18 to get out of her house (By now my half brothers had been born.  I later found out she resented me for not helping her take care of them.  I have always felt guilty that I had no loving feeling for them because I instinctively knew they were my replacements in her N Supply stream, and therefore she would no longer need me for anything.)

Of course, there are so many other examples, but I need to get to the point.  One of the problems with my particular N mother was that her overwhelming desire to always be right drove friends and relatives away. Or, she chose not to associate with them because they did not display the appropriate level of deference to her superior intelligence, or sympathy and awe for her heroic, martyr-like efforts.  In addition, several relatives died when I was young.  This meant that most of the time, it was just me and her.  She was my only real “family” for so many years.  This makes it extremely painful when she chooses to cut me off (like she did so many others) because I’m not being an obedient supply source.  

In particular, when I was 13 she left me with her 26 year-old boyfriend for two weeks.  He:  a) seduced and manipulated me into having sex with him, b) said that he would always take care of me – which I DESPERATELY wanted someone (anyone) to do, and c) recognized, and pointed out to me, that my mother had no respect whatsoever for my feelings or needs.  Our “affair” continued for several months before my mother found out (I told a counselor, who promptly told her).  She had him deported (he was a foreigner), which I should always be totally grateful for (in her mind) because it showed what a good mother she was, looking out for me that way.  Of course, now I am grateful for that aspect of it and have been for some time, but at the time I was rebellious, partly because my eyes had just been opened to how careless she was towards me, and partly because a large source of “support” (however twisted it was) had just been taken away (once again) by her.  My mother saw this rebelliousness (and the fact that I had “stolen her boyfriend”) as a terrible betrayal, and she discarded me.  

Ever since then, I’ve felt like I’ve been trying to fight my way back into her heart, and regain my early status as a “star” child.  For many years, I also tried to make her see and apologize for the way she treated me.  I wrote her many letters that she did not respond to.  When I would break down and call her weeks or months after sending the letters, she would say tightly “You’re entitled to your opinion,” or “I’m not going to be your punching bag,” or “Well I’m sorry, but I had a hard time… blah blah… my father was an alcoholic … blah blah… my mother was always sick and I took care of her…. Blah blah … sob sob … why can’t you be nice to your mother like I was to mine.”  Any of you who have heard this type of apology know that it is NOT an apology – it is a justification and a ploy for sympathy that communicates zero remorse or understanding of your feelings.  I think another thing I’ve done is refuse to appear (be) happy in my dealings with her, because I don’t want her to take credit for any emotional or material success I might enjoy because she wouldn’t admit any wrongdoing.

I finally gave up on the “making her see and apologize” part with the help of my 12-step sponsor.  Here’s how that went:  My step-father was getting remarried and I was going to the wedding, which was in Chicago, close to where my mother lives.  (I had worked to develop a healthy relationship with him after they got divorced, which my mother was and is very resentful about, and cut me off for over a year about).  I had seen my mother two years before at my wedding (where she visited me very briefly and spent most of the time in various dramas with her boyfriend), and before that it had been 4 years since I’d seen her.  Thinking that she might refuse to see me while I was there due to the nature of my visit (going to my step-father’s wedding), but hoping against hope that she would act like a mother and want to see me, I phoned her to request a visit.  Of course, she immediately said she would not see me.  A few days later I received an email from her wherein she described how she could not understand how I could still associate with that man given all the horrible things he had done to her, and to me.  She did describe some of the things he had done to me in the note, and I was SOOO tempted to point out that at the time she had done NOTHING to discourage him from doing them, and NOTHING to indicate that she was displeased he had done them.  I talked to my sponsor about it and she asked me what “my part” was (this is an integral concept in 12-step work).  I thought, what the hell could possibly be my part?  I’m a daughter simply asking to see her mother!  My sponsor told me “my part” was not accepting my mother for what she was – continually expecting her to be a good (or even halfway decent) mother and then getting upset when she didn’t meet this unrealistic expectation.  She also said in my response to the email, I should communicate the “bottom line,” which she helped me realize was that I love my mother and want a relationship with her, but I also need to have a relationship with my other family members.  I carefully crafted an email response, and a week before my trip to Chicago my mother called to say she would see me, which she did.

That was only about a year ago, and since then my mother and I have been doing okay in that we talk on the phone once in awhile, and we actually spent some time camping with my half brothers and my husband.  She still does and says things that hurt or irritate me, but I figure there’s no point in addressing them because she won’t understand and she’ll never change.  Also, she is of course extremely sensitive and might take anything I say as a reason to cut me off once again.  I hate that her behavior and opinions still matter so much to me, but they do.   I guess what I’m struggling with right now is: What is the difference between setting boundaries with an N parent, and trying to change them or get them to see your point of view?  How do you cope if your boundary-setting causes them to cut you off?  How do you stop caring that they are cutting you off?

Sorry for the lengthy diatribe – this stuff has been bottled up for years and I actually have a lot more to say and a lot more questions, but I will give it a break for now – thanks so much for being here.

Peace,
Gwyn

[hope2003]

I am not as good at advice as some of the others around here, but I felt as though your post deserved a response.

In my opinion, boundary setting is done for your benefit.  You establish your limits, and if that person exceeds those limits, they will suffer the consequences.  You may suffer incidental consequences as well, but it won't be as bad as the boundary violation.  

My guess is that you will stop caring less about what your mother thinks as you start feeling better and stronger.

You sound like you have been through hell.  I commend you for all of your hard work. It sounds like you have  good therapist and are on the right track.

[catlover]

Thank you Hope - I really appreciate your response.  I guess I was looking for some support in addition to just advice, but I didn't realize that till after I had written my treatise!  I'm also really wondering if others have experienced similar things with their mothers.  (Wish I could change the subject I put on my post...)

[Jaded911]

Gwyn,

I can relate to your description of your mothers lack of maternal instincts, however my mom was not a Narcissist by any means.  She was just dysfunctional period when it came to everything.  Narcissistic is about the only thing I can honestly say the women was not.  

I want to let you know that you are not alone out here when you discuss your mothers actions.  My childhood was a little more sugar coated then what yours appears to have been, but none the less it was total hell.  

I think the difference between you and I is that nothing my mom did or said to me has affected me in the least since I was around twelve years old.  My girlfriends mother was my saviour.  If that lady had not been in my life, I can't tell you where I would be right now.  She helped me see what true love was.  She was my mentor when it came to learning about motherhood and families.  Every day of my adult life I think of that woman and I realise that if I would not have had her to reassure me as a young child, I could have never become a woman.

My mother was verbally, emotionally, and at times physically abusive to my sister, brother, and I.  Well, actually not so much physically towards my brother and myself, most of the time her physical abuse was directed at my sister.  My sister was weak and my gosh she was such an easy prey for that woman.  When I was around 13 she slapped me in the face because I asked her why she could never be happy about anything.  After she slapped me in the face I said to her that perhaps she couldn't ever be happy because she was to busy searching for things to make everyone else miserable.  That was the last time she ever slapped me because I slapped the woman right back and told her until I gave her reason to touch me, she could leave her freggin hands off of me.  Once I realised she was a coward and preyed upon the weak and stayed the hell away from someone who spunked up to her, heck, spunk is what I gave her.

Nothing she has said or done to me has affected me since that day.  I think the difference between you and I is that I could really give a rats ars what the woman thinks of me, has thought of me in the past, and what in the heck she will think of me in the future.  As far as I am concerned, she is not my mother.  She gave birth to me that does not give her the right to have the respect of being my mother.  

I have heard for 39 yrs how much that woman sacrificed for us kids.  Well goody freggin gum drops.  It really sinks in how much she sacrificed for us as the yrs pass.  None of us kids talk to the woman, none of us kids send her mothers day cards, none of us kids seek a damn thing from that woman.  So she gets back what she sacrificed for us.  Not a damn thing!!  I know it is hard to understand these kind of feelings if you have never lived through this stuff.  But I promise you one damn thing, if the woman died tomorrow, I would cry.  I would cry all right.  I would cry for the mother I should have had, not the one I was stuck with.  May God have Mercy on her soul when she stands in front of him and has to answer to the beatings she gave my sister, the words she spoke to us over the years, and the refusal to take responsibility for her actions.

If she ever tries to hug me or comfort me in any way, I get chills that run down my spine.  So, learned very early to not look for any comfort, advice, love, compassion, or approval from the woman and I never let myself down.  When she sits alone on the holidays without any of us calling her, what are her thoughts?  Well ya know what I think about her thoughts?  I could care less what she thinks.  Perhaps she is a tiny bit remorseful for the hell she put us through.  If not, then so be it, she can sit alone and pat herself on the back for all she gave up for us.

Please realise you could not help who you were born to.  You can however choose the type of relationship from this point on that you want with her.  My goodness hasn't she already taken away enough of your life.  What do you ever think she could give you that she couldnt find within herself to give you as a child.  As a child you are brought into this world with a clean slate.  If this woman would have given you half of what she should have as a parent, you would be on your way in life.  She gave you nothing but a freaked up road to travel.  Nothing she ever did will ever be her fault, according to her that is.

My mom merely gave birth to me.  I am thankful for that but I refuse to be in dept to her for the rest of my life.  If you can not get any answers out of her to help you find inner peace, give yourself a minute to gather your thoughts and move on to find the inner peace without the woman.  I can speak for myself when I tell you that when I decided to rid my mind of the woman who gave birth to me, I began to fill my mind with wonderful thoughts.  They are toxic and nothing will ever change about that.  But you can change how you think of her.  Who cares what she thinks, who cares what she likes or doesnt like about you.  Heck, what makes her an expert on you?  Because she gave birth to you?  Thank her for giving you life, thank yourself for allowing yourself to live that life she gave you.  Find whatever you have to with your mom and if you cant find what you are searching for with her, perhaps its time to stop searching that route.  

I never got anything useful from my mom except the woman showed me how I never wanted to be as a mother.  I was everything she never was and I thank God my kids can never say anything about me that I can say about my mom.  I did learn from her.  I learned what I never wanted to be.  I guess that is the only thing she ever gave me that was worth a hoot.  I have never looked back when I emotionally let her go.  It is a feeling of freedom that you deserve hun.  How many years did she take from you?  One day is to many.  You give to your children, you dont take.  My mom attempted to take and I would be damned if I would just hand it over to her.  

I am not saying it was easy, I am simply saying it was hard as hell but it was well worth it.  Cut her loose.  Let her live her life in hell.  You live your life to the fullest.  Without her if you have to!!!!

[Anastasia]

I think I must have been about 25 when I reallllly began to realize that my Nmother did not love me.  It was a big shock for that to come to my consciousness.  Mothers are supposed to love their children, aren't they?  In order to cope with such a stressful childhood, I denied what was before me.  I had to not admit my Nmother and abusive stepfather hated me just for existing.  I had to not admit to myself that my Nmother didn't care anything about me, otherwise, I couldn't have coped with living in that house.  And I had nobody to go to.  Nowhere to go.  I was stuck.  So I lived in Denial.  It got me thru.
Once I had my son and my Nmother was attempting to overstep my boundaries, it was enough.  And, like me, when your Nmother has pushed you too far, you will step away.
I am not saying that there won't be alot of pain involved.  You probably will feel enormous anger and hostility for years of stuffing down your feelings with her is my guess, but you will survive.  
Its a pity that those of us that aren't narcissists assume that these narcissists are even capable of love.  They aren't, but we keep hanging on to that thread of hope like fools.  Give up the dream, kids, as it ain't happening:  these narcissists don't have it to give to anyone...it isn't you...it's them that are crazy.
You cannot get the Narcissist to conform or change.  You cannot get blood from a turnip or love from a narcissist.  
The best thing, to me, you can do for yourself is to work on giving up the fantasy that you will get what you need emotionally from a narcissist.  
You have to find ways to nurture YOURSELF.  My suggestion is to quit focusing on what the narcissist needs and focus on taking care of yourself.  Build your own self-esteem with accomplishments, being healthy mentally and physically.  Work out.  Read.  Etc.
Work on separating yourself so you can see the situation even clearer.  All will fall in place for you in time, Gwen.  Trust this.

[Discounted Girl]

Whoa Jaded -- tell it like it is girl !! Well, giving up that last little shred of hope that a light bulb will go off in their minds and they will think -- oh my God !! What have I done !! I must hurry and tell my daughter I love her. That is never going to happen, I know it, but every now and then a stray hopeful thought pushes forward and then I remember. Each day I think of her less and less. She is already dead of this earth as far as I am concerned. But, like I said in another thread, it's the mourning of what I never had that pains me so. I see women my age with their elderly mothers all hugging and being together and tender and such, and I think, wonder why I didn't get that? Well, it's easy to be a baby crier - I save that for when I am alone because I am still very much ashamed to admit to many people how badly I was treated. Even though I was the one with blinders and others could see what a rotten person she was for years. I dreamed about my Dad last night and he was laughing and we were having fun like we did when I was little, or whenever she was not in the room to spoil things. He used to take us to the movies and read and sing to us and he taught me to dance with me standing on his feet. He used to swing me by one arm and my brother on the other arm. If she was there the mood was always tense and everyone walked on eggshells. If my Father had left her, he could have come to live with me and my family and we could have had such wonderful times. She just ruined so much for so many. Oh well, now I am sad again and I have so much work to do in preparation for the holidays. God bless each and every one of you.

[catlover]

Thank you all for your words of validation and support.  I must admit that it is hard to give up the hope that my mother will have the "lightbulb" go on in her head and she'll realize how crappy she's been and try to make it up to me (although nobody could ever begin to make up for taking away your childhood).  It seems like it's especially hard with my particular Nmother because she has always been into talking about her own crummy childhood and resulting emotional wounds in a way that makes you think she must understand this in general and be able to perceive it in others, but she does not.  Actually, I take it back:  she DOES perceive it in people's lives for whom she is not to blame, which is what really kills me.  She'll be talking about my half-brother's teenage girlfriend, what a hard life she has because of X or Y, and then I'll bring up how I experienced X or Y, and she becomes a brick wall and says "I don't see how that's the same thing at all."  There have been several times when she has shared some deeply personal hurt, and I have sympathized and then tried to share one with her, and then BAM, she hits me up side the head with an emotional two-by-four.  I used to cry or break things almost every time I got off the phone with her, and my husband would ask me, "Why do you let her do this to you?"  Good question!!  I have mostly gotten beyond that stage, but I can see that I am still in danger of being suckered again.  She has been going to "Emotions Anonymous" and one day I called her when I was very frustrated with emotions I was feeling that I did not want to feel and she WAS sympathetic and said "You know, if all that (job, etc that's been driving me nuts) really gets to you and you feel like you can't take it anymore, you can always come stay here with me.  I'm your mother, and whatever I did or didn't do in the past, it was the best I could do at the time, and you're my daughter and I will always love you."  So I'm starting to think there's hope, but based on my past experience and the things I'm reading on here (which helps me recall my ugly experiences) it's probably not a good idea to go chasing after it.  Because if there's ever one iota of my problems that I describe as being related to her in any way, the two-by-four will be ready and waiting.  Plus, I'm now realizing that going to her with my difficulties as if she's some kind of mentor is feeding right into her as a source of N Supply.

I had really hoped that she would "see the light" as a result of my step-father divorcing her.  That was a joke - instead she now has yet another person she can use as a twisted source of "negative" supply.  (Actually, she almost always used him that way, which is why he FINALLY gave up after 15 years of marriage.  I realize much of his mistreatment of me when I still lived with them was a result of her henpecking him and talking to him about me as though I were the demon spawn.  Hey- that makes HER the demon!  Guess he didn't think of that at the time.)  Her latest outrageous statement related to their divorce goes like this:  My step-dad asked my youngest half-brother (who's now 16) if he wanted to come live with him and his new wife in Chicago (about an hour away from where my brother lives with my mom).  His reasons are not altogether altruistic, as he wants to sell the house he keeps near my mom so he can spend time with my brothers.  However, his reasons have very little to do with my mother (he said he would continue to pay her child support even if my brother came to live with him).  My mother's interpretation of this was to say "That man never stops finding new ways to try and hurt me and make me suffer."  Yep, sure, he wants his SON to live with him just so YOU can suffer.  Well, it's not hard to see why she thinks that, since SHE spends a lot of time thinking about how to make her "enemies" suffer.

One thing that really bugs me is that my brothers don't see her AT ALL for what she is.  They are still at the stage I was at before my eyes were opened (at least some) at 13.  I wonder if they will ever figure it out?  Of course, she is still much nicer to them than she was to me because she is more desperate for supply sources as she gets older.  But, the signs are there if they paid attention.  Like when she made my brother wait an hour in her living room with a broken leg so my step-dad could take him to the emergency room because why should she always have to take them to the doctor?  Their father was coming to spend his weekly time with them, so she reasoned it was only fair that he take care of it on his shift.

She did get scared during the divorce that she'd lose my brothers as a supply, because she actually said something about wanting to keep her options open to possibly bear MORE children if she found a new husband (she was 48 when she said this).  Obviously any children I might have would be used by her in the same sick way.  (Though I don't think I will have children, because I feel like Nic who described in another post that he feels his own childhood precludes him from being a parent.)

Thank you all so much for opening my eyes even more.  I was starting to feel hostility toward my therapist for being so certain that I have a terrible mother who I need to protect myself from.  I was starting to go into the mode of protecting HER from my therapist!!  What a f*ing crazy hold these Ns can have on us!  THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU for opening my eyes!!

Oh - I just thought of one more awful experience that I feel the need to share:  When I was 22 I had cysts removed from both my ovaries - it was my first major surgery and I was scared to death.  The surgery was scheduled many months in advance and my mother knew about it, yet she chose to go on vacation with her new "family" during my surgery and most of my recovery (she lived nearby at the time).  When I pointed this out to her she yelled at me about how she hadn't been on vacation in over three years and it had already been scheduled blah blah blah.

But I have to wonder, is bringing all this stuff back up, getting angry all over again, really going to do me any good?  I guess it's good if it stops me from getting suckered again.

How do you live with the fact that you were raised by a mentally ill person?  How do you ever learn how to live when you were given such a hideous example?  How do you ever trust your own judgement when there's a chance it could be your N mother's voice?  Many questions for my therapist (or anyone who cares to share their take on them).

[catlover]

One more question - and this is the biggie: How do you stop from feeling that you are hopelessly f*d up from being raised by a narcissist, that there is no chance of being happy, and no point in continuing?  No, I'm not going to kill myself, just indulging in the big 'ol pity pot.

[Jaded911]

Gwyn,

You learn to trust yourself by listening to your gut feelings.  I don't know how I survived my childhood but I do know this, I know every damn time I do something that I am going to regret.  I know because my gut instinct tells me so.  Later I think to myself, damn I remember feeling uneasy about .......or I think I knew this........wasn't going to be ...........

You ask how you live a  happy life after being raised by a F** up person.  I think of it this way, whatever the damn freggin crazy lady did, I do the opposite.  I also figured that she wanted me to live a miserable life like hers, I will show her she has no hold on me and I will live the complete opposite of what she wants.

It is F**d up and I hate that I had to begin life under this womans wings.  But ya know, she made me a toughy and in this world ya just have to be.  When you just plug along in life with a "whatever you want or say" attitude, you run into carbon copies of my mom.  I am not saying I always have to be the boss or always have to be right.  I am saying that I do not back away from my gut instinct and whenever someone proves theirself to me, they have equal standing in my rank department.

Life sucks but ya just have to play the game a different way then what your mom taught you.  It is fun after you learn that.

[Anonymous]

Being raised by a narcissist isn't a hopeless deal. It does cause problems, for sure. But it doesn't make you what she is. We're all unique, not clones of our parents. Don't think you are as screwed up as your mom, because you aren't.

bunny

[catlover]

Thanks Bunny and Jaded.  

I really needed to hear that I'm not as messed up as my mom!!  

What I've had a hard time with for many years now is not being sure what my "gut" feelings really ARE.  They seem to change from day to day.  Also, I'm terrified that if I "stand up for myself", I'm being like my Nmom, who was/is totally demanding and never satisfied with anything.  So whenever I feel like something's not good enough, I don't trust that I'm not just being negative and overly critical like her.  And if I were to be the "opposite" of her, I'd take care of everyone and be overly sympathetic.  So, it's really hard for me to find that balance, and it's the main reason I started therapy.

Thanks again for your input.

[Jaded911]

Gwyn,

You made several valid points that really never occurred to me.  I can understand when you stand up for yourself you might perceive it acting like your mom.  I don't know hun what to tell you about standing up for yourself.  I get into this discussion with a friend of mine.  If you are laid back and go with the flow, you find yourself flowing in the direction of everyone else just to keep the peace.  If you stand up for yourself it seems that it is an invitation for some people to take you on.  Almost like they are thinking "come on tough guy, lets see how tough you are".  I will just offer my experiences with both sides of that coin.

Before I met my xN, I was a very independent woman.  I paid my own way and I did not have to be with a man to feel complete.  I dated over the years before I met my xN, however nobody captured my heart like he did.  I spoke my mind but I also have empathy and would never hurt anyones feelings.  I do not like confrontation but if I am pinned in a corner I can hold my own.  I would say I was right in the middle of outspoken but I could also hush up on some things.  

Now that I have been in this relationship I now realise that I would take being outspoken any day of the week.  If a person is outspoken they might step on some toes along the way.  Speaking your mind could put you at a higher risk for being proven wrong because your thoughts are out there for everyone to know.  But you know what, who doesn't make mistakes.  Who hasn't stuck their foot in their mouth.  You make ammends for your mistakes and you work your ars off to not repeat them.  The key word in that sentence is YOUR MISTAKES!!  You own up to your mistakes and you go on with yourself.  

Being in a position where I could not speak my mind and I had to agree with far out crap just to keep the peace with Brent, geesh I can't begin to explain how that feels for someone who had their self together before the relationship.  I felt belittled, demeaned, unworthy, unloved, stupid, speachless, invisible, and I could go on and on.  Although I have made mistakes throughout my lifetime, they were my mistakes.  I made them and I took responsibility for them.  With my relationship I found myself taking responsibility for his actions just to hush him up.

My gut instinct is like a little voice inside of me that talks to me when I am flubbing up.  I love that little voice and I promise you that I will never ignore it again.  It cost me two years of my life and a major setback for my self esteem.  I think I will stick to being outspoken.  That way if I have some bottom to smooch because I made a mistake, atleast I will know that the smooches are from my own doings.  

Being voiceless seemed to me to be like being invisible.  Now don't get me wrong, being the center of attention is not something I need or enjoy.  But my gosh everyone needs a little attention every now and then.  With my xN, attention was the last thing I ever received.  I say we say it loud and say it proud.  

The good Lord gave us a voice for a reason.  He also gave us legs to walk away from those who refuse to allow us to use it.  Wink!!

[catlover]

Jaded,
How great that you got out of that relationship in a mere two years!  Bad that you had to endure it at all though.  One of the things I will be exploring with my therapist is whether I should stay in the relationship I'm in.  I just can't seem to tell.  She had me read an interesting book called "Getting the Love You Want" by Harville Hendrix.  My husband is reading it too, at her suggestion.  It talks about how we are most attracted to people who are like our parent(s) at some deep level, because we are trying to deal with our "unfinished business" with our parents.  The book provides exercises for us to heal with our significant other's help.  Your description of how you were very attracted to your xN really fits with the book.  I've heard this theory before and don't know if it means we're "doomed" or what, but I hope my husband is willing to give the exercises in the book a shot (if not, this may be the ultimate sign to leave).

[CC]

Just had a fleeting thought, but it seems to make sense..

I think if you stand up for yourself it is always a good thing - as long as (key) you are being RESPECTFUL of the other party involved, not invalidating someone or manipulating someone into to your own beliefs.  Because in a way, isn't standing up for yourself just another way of saying you are setting a boundary?

[Jaded911]

Gwyn,

I have heard that theory alot and it does fit in some situations that I know of.  I have thought about that with Brent and our relationship.  I dunno if it fits here.  He isn't actually like either of my parents, HOWEVER, I know I stayed in the relationship because of feelings I had from my childhood.  Does that make any sense, lol, it really doesn't to me but what the heck.

I guess I believe in unconditional love (which is something I never received as a child).  I felt that if I left the relationship, I would be a hypocrit.  I loved him with all of my heart and I wanted to show him that despite his anti-social behavior, I would love him unconditionally.  That unconditional love was a free pass to walk all over me.  

I never received unconditional love as a child.  I remember all of the rules and regulations my mom laid down for her love.  I didn't want to give my love on the same terms that I received my moms love.  But you know Gwyn, I have never dealt with a N person and I can guess I was in total shock for about 6 months.

I have been divorced for around 9 yrs.  I divorced and decided I needed to find myself.  I went back to school and I lived my life for me.  Sure I dated but I refused to bring men around my kids.  Every other weekend when they were with their dad, I was free to do whatever I wanted to.  I did not want my kids seeing every Tom, Dick, and Harry going thru our house.  I tried to set a good example.

I met Brent and of course he put on a great act at first.  There was no problems with him for about 9 months then all hell broke loose.  I can't explain why I stayed for two years.  All I can say is that I loved the man and I hoped he would see the light.  Well he chose to knock my lights out a few times instead of trying to see his light.  

I know my childhood makes me very vulnerable to alot of thigs.  I am at risk for blocking out love from someone to avoid getting my heart broke.  I am at the point in my life where I want someone who is going to be there for the duration.  What in the world is so hard about finding a good man?  Brent was a good man, 80% of the time.  The other 20% of the time he left you standing there with your mouth hanging open.  

I realize I am worthy of others love, but geesh I kind of wonder what in the heck the problem is.  As I told my friend, I am not lucky in love I recken.  I would rather be alone then being with another N.  

It was funny, my mom made this comment about Brent.  "Mindy where is Brent?"  We broke up mom.  "Why"?  It is a long story mom, don't ask about it if you know whats good for you.  "What did you do Mindy".  

I mean good lord......I looked at her and said as loud as I could "Oh hell mom you know me, never been one to take a flying fist without mouthing back.  What in the HELL DO YOU MEAN WHAT DID I DO"?  "The man broke my rib mom, are you meaning what did I do to deserve that?  Youre sick mom, nothing else needs to be said about it"  She said, oh thats too bad.  I thought he would be the one for you.  I said "hey do me a favor, why don't you just shut the F** up about it".  

I thought my oldest daughter was going to fall out of the chair.  But ya know, I have been through enough with this man.  My mom wanted to rub it into my face.  Just like she did everything else.  She has a way of tainting every thing that she comes in contact with.  It is like they love ruining our times because they can not enjoy life.  

Nutso queen, I mean good lord, lol.  I find it comical at times when I think of her.  She acts like a little kid who is jealous of their friends toys.  She says and does anything possible to ruin the moment.  Ya just have to laugh at them at times because if you can't, you might just lose your damn mind.  

Gwyn, you keep up the good work in your search for yourself.  I knew myself so well before I got into this relationship.  I am slowly but surely finding my way back to myself but geesh, this N crap is enough to mess with an;yones self esteem and their mind too.

I am not going to reply about your therapist because I personally don't use one.  My uncle is a Psychiatrist so thank goodness I do not have to search for the perfect therapist.  Good grief, have to search for a man worth having, a good therapist, a bakery that bakes great cakes, and my diamond earring I lost outside.  I have my day mapped out for me dont I?   Looks like I have all the essentials listed.  Man, therapist, cake, earring.  Yup, its all there.  LOL.  I have yet to do any of the above listed.   It is all your fault Gwyn.  You made me answer this post so now you have to come to my house and finish wrapping the Christmas gifts.  Hurry on over Gwyn, they are piling up waiting on you.

Oh heck, I will let you off this time.  But next time you attract me to a post and I have work to do, you have had it missy.  

JK, thanks for the book suggestion.  I am going to pick it up.  Good Lord I might be scared to find out what I am all about.  Yikes!!