Does my wife have NPD? Should I leave her?

[arold_ite]

Hi, I found this site today and have been reading through the past posts for about an hour now.  I only learned about NPD a few days ago when I picked up a book called ‘Who’s pulling your strings’.  When I read the description of NPD, I recognised the behaviour of my wife immediately.

I’m a 41 year-old male.  I have a successful career.  I am divorced with two teenage children that I see every weekend. 

I met my current wife four years ago.  Our relationship was always volatile and very much ‘on again off again’.  Even after we married, I always suspected that something wasn’t quite right with the relationship.  I guess I confirmed this to myself by my unwillingness to take her to see any of my friends.  I was always scared about how she would behave.  Deep down, this fact alone should have told me that things were not as they should be but, I don’t know how to explain it, something got a hold of me and forced me to push these feelings and suspicions down.

I’ve always been a very strong, independent, successful man.  I had my own business for a number of years and also ran a youth group for many years.  I’ve never had problems making decisions or indeed acting on these decisions.

Over the past four years, I have become a mere shell of my former self.  I am no longer a confident person, I find myself constantly thinking about the repercussions (from my wife) before making ANY decisions, I’ve stopped seeing my friends (because she doesn’t like it), I’m even seeing less of my children because she demands it.

I could go on and give hundreds of further examples but I’m guessing that you’ve probably heard them all before!

The reason for my post is to ask advice on two things:

1.   How can I know for sure that my wife has NPD? 

One of the posts that I read from this site had a list of about 100 different attributes of somebody with NPD.  My wife matched nearly all of them.  I’m a rational, educated man and deep down, given what I’ve researched on the subject (admittedly only over the past few days), it would appear to me that she definitely has this disorder.  However, without clinical confirmation (which she would never agree to), how can I be sure? 

I need to be sure so that I can know what I’m dealing with.  If my wife is sick, I want to be able to help her. OK, I’ve also read that it’s impossible to try and help somebody with NPD because it can’t be cured, but at least if I know what I’m dealing with, maybe then I can attempt to learn what the best cause of action should be.

2.   Should I leave her?

Leading on from the previous question, I finally built up the courage to walk out on my wife last week, seven days ago.  I’ve been living out of a hotel ever since. 

There was absolutely no communication between us for the first six days but last night she tried to call me.  I know very well that if I let her talk to me, I will allow her to control me with her manipulative words, tone of voice, crying, shouting and emotional abuse, etc.  So, I only agreed to communicate with her by text.  This way, I can control the flow of communication and I can stop myself from being controlled.  As you can imagine, this drove her absolutely mad but eventually, she did communicate with me through text messages.

She is telling me that she wants me to go back to her, she will change, she won’t try to control me, etc.  Again, I know from bitter experience that these are just words.  She never follows through with actions.  She never does what she says she will do.

So, given that I firmly believe she has NPD.  Given that I don’t believe she can ever change.  Given that I’ve already made the first move (by walking out last week).  Do you think I should try again, one last time (there have been many ‘last times’ over the past four years).  Or, do you think I should just turn my phone off and leave the rest to the lawyers?

I appreciate that this is a lot to ask!  But, maybe somebody out these could give me some general advice on what to do.

Like I said before, I’m no longer strong enough to make these types of decisions.  I feel immensely guilty by walking out on her but at the same time, a very small part of me is excited to start my life again.

What should I do?

Thanks for listening.

Arold

[Hopalong]

Arold,
I would say please, get yourself to a counselor immediately. A psychological counselor. This is my bias, but I have found that in some cases, religious counselors will advise people to make a marriage last long past the point of reason. Because to some of them, some of the time, the marriage concept is more important than the suffering of the people within it.

If you had children with your new wife, I'd hesitate and suggest trying to repair things. But as you don't, it certainly sounds as though you are better off out of it. If this woman triggers such anxiety in you that you literally cannot be exposed to the sound of her voice without losing what remains of your life force (sounds as though it took most of your battery power to get you to a hotel)...then yes, I will stick my neck out and say, don't go back to her.

But do go forward...to a counselor. Quick. You are feeling fragile enough that you need to be able to unload these feelings and process this fear in the presence of a caring and skillful professional. Those appointments can become an island of safety for you, and you need one.

And if you're wrong, or I'm wrong, then a person who knows what NPD is and is not (and make sure to ask them before you sign up, visit a few counselors for a "getting acquainted session" before you commit to workig with one) will be able to help you either way.

Move on with your life, but do it within a process of determination to learn what happened, what signs you overlooked, what it is in yourself that drew you to her in the first place, etc.

This can be a watershed in your life. A good one. IF you seize the chance to learn from it.

Good luck and keep us posted by posting!
Hopalong

[arold_ite]

Thanks for the reply and the advice Hopalong, that sounds like a really good idea.

I'm in London.  I don't suppose anybody knows where I can start looking?  I've never seen a therapist or councillor before so I'm just not sure where to start?

Thanks again
Arold

[Hopalong]

You're very welcome (and welcome to the board, by the way!)
I'm across the pond so will have to leave it to our UK-ers to help you with how-to-find-a-counselor piece.

Hang in,
Hopalong

[pguest]

Hi there, trust your instincts about how you feel. You sound very wary about returning to her. You don't have to do anything right now. You can stay in the hotel for as long as you wish. No-one is forcing you to do anything about the relationship; you get to decide when you want to act, communicate etc.

Okay? Just maybe have some time alone to think about it yourself. And if you want therapy and are able to fund it, try searching under yell.com - or maybe you'd like to read up more on narcissism and how to recognise it and deal with it ? - the books recommended by Dr Grossman are available from Amazon.co.uk too.

Or even buy the January UK issue of Psychologies magazine (it's in the womens' magazines section but it's not just for women) featuring an article on therapy for men by this therapist (and no, I'm not anything to do with him): http://www.derekdraper.net/home.htm

Let us know what you decide!

[arold_ite]

Thanks pGuest, great advice from this group again (so glad I found this group).

I've just ordered a couple of books from amazon, which I'm going to read before making any decisions.

I've also just booked an initial session with a therapist in London.  I'm not sure what will come of this, but I have at least try.

I owe to myself, and I believe, to my wife, to TRY and do something.  At least then, if I do walk away for good, I can say that I tried.  Of course, I HAVE been trying for the last four years, so this will be my last ditch effort to try and understand this disorder and how I can deal with it.

Arold

[Portia]

Another quick point: you mention handing things over to the lawyers – from what you’ve said so far, your wife sounds at the least unbalanced and possibly likely to become vengeful if she finds you want a divorce. Some people don’t play fair in these circumstances. Have you taken steps to protect your property and possessions if you do decide to start proceedings? You might also alert your children in case she tries to communicate with them.

A thought: you seem to have written why you’ve left her above – why would you give her another chance? Some guilt about leaving her? If a relationship isn’t working for one person, it isn’t working at all. It sounds as though this relationship isn’t working.

One of the links on that Derek draper site might be more helpful if you want to find someone to talk to – I’d go for http://www.bacp.co.uk/

oh just reading your new post .....

hey well done on booking that session!  That's a big step (well i think so). Bravo.

I hope you'll come to find that you don't have to deal with this disorder. She does, not you. You're entitled to live your own life as you want to, not because you feel you owe anyone anything. Ask yourself - does she seriously try and understand you and your needs? Relationships work when they're reciprocal, not one-way. Let us know how you get on, if you want to. Good luck

P

[daylily]

Hello arold:

Don't

Over the past four years, I have become a mere shell of my former self.  I am no longer a confident person, I find myself constantly thinking about the repercussions (from my wife) before making ANY decisions, I’ve stopped seeing my friends (because she doesn’t like it), I’m even seeing less of my children because she demands it.

and

She is telling me that she wants me to go back to her, she will change, she won’t try to control me, etc.  Again, I know from bitter experience that these are just words.  She never follows through with actions.  She never does what she says she will do.

pretty much give you the answers to your questions?  You know what's best for you, and what you should do to keep yourself whole.  I'm sorry that it's so painful.  You seem like you're a genuinely caring person who really wants to understand and act on understanding, not just emotion.  Narcissists prey on just such people.  They view a desire to understand, to withhold judgment until the facts are in, as weakness.  They view it as an opening for manipulation.  I think you know all this, but you'll need to remind yourself of it many, many times as the drama unfolds.  And with a narcissist, there is always drama.

I hope your therapy session goes well--and I applaud you for scheduling it so promptly--but even if it doesn't, please remember that you need this kind of support right now, and you deserve to keep looking until you find the person who can help you.  I can't really add anything to the excellent comments of others, but I wanted you to know that we're all pulling for you, and this is a very good place to puzzle out some of the riddles of dealing with a narcissist (or any other type of controlling, manipulative person, for that matter).

Best of luck.  I hope you will let us know how it goes.

daylily

[arold_ite]

Hi Portia, thanks for the advice re: protecting my assets.  I'm not sure how things work in the US, but as far as I understand it (please correct me if I'm wrong), in the UK, my wife is pretty much entitled to half of everything. My only real assets are the two properties that I own.  I've already accepted that I'll have to sell these properties and split the profits with her.  I guess my solicitor will advise me accordingly.  However, if I DO decide to go ahead with the divorce, to be totally honest, I don't care how much it cost me just to make a clean break.

Thanks again
Arold

[arold_ite]

Hi daylily, thanks for the reply.

They view a desire to understand, to withhold judgment until the facts are in, as weakness.  They view it as an opening for manipulation.  I think you know all this, but you'll need to remind yourself of it many, many times as the drama unfolds.  And with a narcissist, there is always drama.

  That's really good advice, I will make sure to remember this.  Thanks.

I wanted you to know that we're all pulling for you, and this is a very good place to puzzle out some of the riddles of dealing with a narcissist

  That's reassuring to me, thank you so much.  I've been struggling with this for a long time now.  To be honest, being a man, I've been too ashamed to open up to my friends about this so I've never had a chance to let anybody know how I feel.  Thanks again

Arold

[stranded]

Our relationship was always volatile and very much ‘on again off again’.  Even after we married, I always suspected that something wasn’t quite right with the relationship.  I guess I confirmed this to myself by my unwillingness to take her to see any of my friends.  I was always scared about how she would behave.  Deep down, this fact alone should have told me that things were not as they should be but, I don’t know how to explain it, something got a hold of me and forced me to push these feelings and suspicions down.

I think your own words make it very clear that you were happier and more yourself before you met your wife.  I am fortunate enough not to have N's in my own family, but my in-law situation is close enough.  My SIL is the worst N ever, and before I even knew about N's, I remember her husband having a really hard time with his friends and family.  They said how much he changed.  He found himself meeting his friends a lot by himself, without her, changing his friends and choosing the ones that his wife would approve of.  And now she has brainwashed him into thinking that he cannot live without her, that without her he would be nothing, that she changed him for the better.  

The N's in my life have made my life miserable.  Life is too short to subject yourself to abuse.

And be kind to yourself.  This sort of person is deceitful by nature.  Not always maliciously.  I mean, you kind of have to feel sorry for them.  They are shells of a person, they are human shades, and they are very empty inside.  They use you to fill themselves up.  Don't get sucked in.  It is very easy to.  We've all been there.  

How can you be sure that your wife is an N?  Later on in your post you say you firmly believe she does.  She's your wife.  You know her.  If you thinks she has it, she does, in my opinion.  Don't second-guess yourself.  And now that you've seen one, your gut will tell you right away when you've met another.

Should you leave?  My SIL's husband tried to leave early in the situation, he came back, and she holds it against him.  And he lets her.  If you come back, she will never ever let you forget that you left, and she will punish you for the rest of your life, or as long as you let her.  She also made it HIS fault that he left - that he was too spineless, not manly enough to stick things through.  It is REALLY good that you are going to see a therapist.  I am really happy for you.

Good luck.  We'll be looking out for you.  Glad you found the site.

- Stranded

[miss piggy]

Hello Arold,

Welcome to our board.  I sometimes feel funny that we so often offer support to people who want to leave their spouses.  I am/was one of those idealistic people who think marriage and committment are serious ideals to uphold.  How-ever, Ns are a whole different ballgame.  If she quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck...run like the wind!

It sounds like you wish you could give yourself permission to leave her and not feel guilty, not feel like a bad person.  And if you cannot give yourself permission, maybe you can find it here.  But it needs to come from you.  We all really hyper-understand the issues of N relationships and will give you support.  But the permission needs to come from you. 

How do you give yourself permission?  Go to a counselor that understands narcissism (and is not him or herself a narcissist!).  Remember that you are but a thing to be controlled by your N.  To reclaim and honor your LIFE, you must leave or die a slow painful mind-numbing death.  Your choice.  BTW, choosing life doesn't make you a bad person.    But count on an N to tell you it does.

I'm glad you are learning all you can about narcissism.  It will really help you understand it and more importantly how contact with it makes you feel. 

To everyone: I found a new site that is just wonderfully written by a layperson.  Many facets of narcissism explained in detail with anecdotes.  Not loaded down with psychobabble although some terms are used and explained.  www.operationdoubles.com  Go to "What Makes a Narcissist Tick". 

Good luck A!   Miss Piggy

[Brigid]

Welcome arold,
I have been married to and divorced from 2 n men.  The second one I was married to for 23 years, he is the father of my 2 children, and the divorce was devastating.  I definitely agree that therapy is the best way for you to go right now and I applaud you taking that step. 

Your wife may have NPD or maybe just N traits and maybe some BPD thrown in for good measure, but what does it matter?  She is making your life a living hell and you know that she will not change.  She will pull out all the stops to get you to come back, but if you do, the cycle will just begin again.  She does not love you, she just NEEDS you to supply her.  If she finds someone better to provide that supply, she will discard you without thinking twice.  They don't feel and love the way the rest of us do.  They are empty shells that just look for vulnerable individuals to prey upon and eventually suck dry.

If she is keeping you from your children, that should be reason enough to remove her from your life.  I would never let a man into my life who did not understand and support that my relationship with my children is very valuable and necessary to my happiness.

I hope you can get the help you need from the therapist and you find whatever way possible to not let her suck you back in.

Blessings,

Brigid

[Chicken]

hi Arold,

Just a quick note to say that if you are looking for a counsellor in the UK, just click on the following site:

http://www.bacp.co.uk/

then click on: "find a therapist", then enter your post code and it will bring up all the therapists in your area.  I found mine that way.  It tells you about them and what type they practise and what all their qualifications mean. 

I wish you the very best of luck on this tough road that lies ahead of you.

Keep posting

Selkie

[Its not Easy]

I am interested in the site that you refered to which listed about 100 signs and symptoms of NPD?

If you made a close match with that list AND your wife's behavoir, then surely no more diagnostic stuff is needed. Take it from one who has been in a relationship with an NPD woman( a cop ), You will continue on a downward spiral and she will drain you dry of every drop of self regard that you possess. They are evil emotional vampires and unfortunately they do operate in sunlight. They have a pathological lust for control and power and achieve this by crushing your spirit,distorting the truth,accusing you of things that haven't happened yet, and numerous other vile and blaming behaviors. There is no cure for what is wrong with her. However,there is help available for you and the good ladies above have pointed you in that direction.

Your wife may also have BPD and/or HPD to add more poison to the brew.
HPD women are the 'drama queens' who will tell you that YOU are the problem and everyone just loves them so they cannot possible be at fault( weird logic but nobody ever said that these women made sense Lol)

Good hunting brother.
( ya can't shoot 'em so you just gotta leave 'em)