Struggling with decision

[Hopalong]

Vacillating is just thinking, Ms Pluckster.
None of these big decisions are crisp and simple.
Sometimes ambivalence is life's gift of space (uncomfortable space, but still space).

I love the idea of list-making...
but even MORE the idea of getting help and support so you're not always weighing things in isolation. Start with your doubts and make sure whoever you talk to doesn't want to push you in one direction or another, but is more interested in supporting you while you take the journey deeper into yourself.

Only one thing is inevitable about all this: you growing, and growing more aware.
That's all good. Sometimes growing is like learning to dance, sometimes like lifesaving surgery. The degree of pain doesn't necessarily equate to the degree of rightness of a choice, I think...

((((((((Plucky)))))))))

Hopalong

[Plucky]

Hi Sela and everyone else who is lending a hand.
This is a good description.  I can refine it:

1.  To stay and continue creating the childhood for your children that you wish you had had, minus witnessing a good marital relationship.
VS

2.  To leave and create a childhood for them that may, at least initially, be far from what you wish you had had because you could end up being a strained, tired, financially stressed, emotionally drained, depressed, depleted mother who hasn't done the work to tell what was her fault in the marriage and what was not.

My H has a lot of shortcomings but I know I do too.  So I'm just trying to sort out what is what.  Whatever is me, goes with me.  So I want to know what that is!   

Plucky

[Plucky]

I had to let go of the friendly aspects of my NH... the good times were inextricibly linked with the bad.  I had to accept that I could not have one without the other...

Hi sj,
this is really helpful.  It seems obvious now that you have said it.    But I have been reluctant to let go of anything good in order to get rid of the bad.  So I felt I had to determine that it was REALLY bad.
Plucky
   

[Hopalong]

Nice Things He Does/Degree of Impact/Category I Care About (1-10)

Mean Things He Does/Degree of Impact/Category I Care About (1-10)

I'm sure somebody has better ones but these coulld be starter headings...just keep cranking them out...fill up some pages. Then you'll be able to "score" the last two and get a closer sense of whether you have deal breakers...

Love,
Hops

[Brigid]

Marta said:

This is why Carl Jung said that growth cannot occur in isolation but only through a relationship. How does therapy work? You throw ideas at the analyst, and he may ask questions, point out distortions, and your projections. If you simply try to replace a strawman for a therapist (or a friend, guide, whatever) in your own head, it doesn't work because that strawman is created from the same stuff as your own thoughts. For movement, you truly need opposing forces.

This is very true.  I would agree that a good therapist would be your salvation right now (and just for you--couples counseling can come later if you decide to go that route).  I would NEVER have understood what I was dealing with, how I could cope, how I would explain things to my children, why my xh did what he did and how I would move on with my life, without the very significant input of my T.  I still got stuck in sad and lonely places for periods of time, but he kept me moving forward and making good decisions and finding clarity about my situation.  I believe that any other remedy, i.e., finding a new career or interest, talking to friends who perhaps had been in a similar situation, or just trying to work through it on my own, would have been a band-aid approach and I would have ended up making the same relationship mistakes I have made my entire life (my answer for happiness was always to find a relationship).  My T forced me to eventually go back to my FOO (in my mind) and examine how that relationship set me up for making such poor choices in mates and for being willing to live with them for so long without choosing to leave or even complain.

I always saw myself as a very strong woman who could cope just fine without therapy.  I was "forced" to go there when my xh announced he wanted to leave and I was desperate to save the marriage.  Ultimately I couldn't save the marriage (a Godsend), but I was able to save myself by continuing with that therapist until early December when he said I was just too happy to be in therapy anymore.  I learned so much in those weekly visits for 2 1/2 years.  Yes, it does get expensive, but it was the best money I ever spent and I'm so glad I stuck with it until I got my feet firmly planted on the ground again, or probably for the first time.

Please consider doing this for yourself and ultimately for your h and children.  At the end of the day, no matter what decision you make, you must know in your own mind that you made that decision with clarity and complete understanding of the ramifications of that decision.

Hugs,

Brigid

[Plucky]

Thank you everyone,
I do think therapy would be useful and it is my plan to at least get a family therapist and hopefully one for me.  Right now my life is so crammed full that I cannot figure out how to squeeze in a T.   So I am trying to survive on books and the board.  I have been to T in the past, and have had only short term experiences for different reasons.  Some were good, some not - I know it could take some time and even setbacks before settling in to a good T relationship.  It's an investment in time I don't have the means to make right now. 

I think I have to go back to what write said.  My H is bad at times, like anyone else.  But the main thing is, that he has issues form his past that prevent him from being able to be the kind of partner I want.  I don't have to make him into a monster.  He is just not capable, even if he saw it and tried to do it.  Which on occasion he does, and then I feel bad because he is trying.

As you wise ones have said,  I am not responsible for what happens to him afterwards.  I do care, because he is a human being, but mainly because he is my children's father and what happens to him impacts them.  I can't control it but at least I can avoid making it worse by trying to keep the situation as cordial and human as possible.

So I'll just try to keep inching forward.
A snail-like
Plucky

[Plucky]

I just want to add that I read and reread every single post.  They all have something in it to help me along.  I have not properly responded to most of them.  Lots of times I respond to the last one I read, get it all mixed up with ideas from someone else and then run out of steam.  Although my progress is slow, it is taking a lot of energy and I only have a little sliver of myself to use for this.

So I just want to say that if I did not mention you by name, I have still appreciated your ideas and I'll try to respond better.  Thank you.
Plucky

[longtire]

Hi Plucky,
I have been following along this thread from the beginning.  This sounds so much like me.  You think you're vacillating?  I was like the ping pong ball in an Olympic championship match!!   It hasn't stopped, exactly, but it has gotten MUCH, MUCH better now.  The real turning point for me was when I started returning to the same position AFTER each vacillation.  I look at it this way:  You are trying to balance and decide a lot of stuff that is VERY important to you and you need to understand the choices and what you really want before you make them.  No problem.  Keep posting your ambivalence or whatever you feel here.  This is a great place to let it all out.

Take as much time as you need to get ready to make your decisions.  If you aren't clear yet, you aren't ready to decide.  I know how up in the air and uncomfortable it is for me to be stuck in the middle.  It isn't a fun time, but I'll give you three pats on the back (or as many as you want) for continuing to find YOUR path in all this.

From my experience, you build or rebuild strength slowly.  One tiny step at a time.  Whatever you decide in the end, you will need to have as much strength to follow your path as possible.  Take care of yourself and do something, anything, to build your strength every single day, even when you don't feel like it.  Because you won't always feel like it until you have "enough" strength.  Sleep in an extra 5 minutes or go to bed 5 minutes early.  Put off non-essential "work."  Eat healthy, get some exercise, go out with friends.  Whatever will give you a boost and let you put down some burdens for a while.  It all adds up and means even more when you know you are doing it specifically to take care of yourself.

I will also back up what Brigid said: 

I would agree that a good therapist would be your salvation right now (and just for you--couples counseling can come later if you decide to go that route).

My limited experience with couples counseling taught me that both parties must be willing and at least one must be able for the counseling to heal, rather than further damage the relationship.  Take care of your own part first.  Then you can see if your husband is willing or able to take care of his.

((((((((((((((((((Plucky)))))))))))))))))

[Plucky]

ok.  whew.  Thanks for letting me off the hook.  It's silly isn't it!    I feel like I should make up my mind, already.   Some little voice in the back of my head is saying, hurry up!  Don't you know what you want?  You're hurting your children!  You're a doormat!  You're going to wait until you are near death to start living!  Etc.  Shut up little voice!

From my experience, you build or rebuild strength slowly.  One tiny step at a time.  Whatever you decide in the end, you will need to have as much strength to follow your path as possible.  Take care of yourself and do something, anything, to build your strength every single day, even when you don't feel like it.  Because you won't always feel like it until you have "enough" strength.  Sleep in an extra 5 minutes or go to bed 5 minutes early.  Put off non-essential "work."  Eat healthy, get some exercise, go out with friends.  Whatever will give you a boost and let you put down some burdens for a while.  It all adds up and means even more when you know you are doing it specifically to take care of yourself.

longtire, this is great advice and I have instinctively been doing this.  I've been getting to bed earlier and to heck with whatever I didn't get to. I just feel much more tired.  I've been feeding us all well -   it's the thing that holds the family together.  I've been trying to listen to my soul when I just don't have the energy to do that last little task or drag everyone to that must-do fieldtrip.   It's little but I think it is holding me together.    I'm planning to try to work an hour a week of exercise into my schedule and I have 2 possible friends I am trying to cultivate.  Life as a single parent looks too grim without having someone out there!  But I worry whether married people want to be friends with single people, especially newly divorced people.  Maybe the 2 possible friends will just dump me as soon as I confide anything important.  I suppose the next step is to find a single parent group, and then what?  Join, even though I'm not single yet?  I feel like I'm trying to hop over a big puddle and it's too wide to span.    I'm going to fall splat into the muddy water and.....(insert worst imaginable bad scenario).

A wet and dirty
Plucky

[Hopalong]

Plucky's ducks:

financial, legal        health, social

And through it all you're trying to listen to your soul: spiritual.

Sounds like you're getting your ducks in a row

Hope today is a hopeful day for you, you're doing such an honorable job.

Hopalong

[Healing&Hopeful]

((((((Plucky))))

It’s great that you are putting in place some backup.  Why can’t you join a single parent group?  Are you in a couple?  Or are you one of two people who happen to live in the same house?  Big difference in my opinion… there are times when people can be emotionally single, before they break up, if you get what I mean.

I feel like I'm trying to hop over a big puddle and it's too wide to span.   
This may feel like it is too wide to span, however what is waiting at the other side?  When you feel you have everything in place, when YOU are ready, I feel you’ll be leaping over this puddle.

I believe in you Plucky…. I believe you have the strength and capabilities to get through what lies ahead, and we here to hold your hand through it too.

Take care

H&H xx

[noname]

Jung said that growth cannot occur in isolation but only through a relationship.

For an alternate view, read Alice Miller.

[bean as guest]

Hi Plucky,
I thought about it for about a year before I finally decided to leave my ex (he wasn't N that I know of, just not very good for me--like a big kid).  We didn't have children and it was something the marriage counselor said that clicked for me.  He said:  "do you want to still be married 15 years down the road AND have children with this man?  He still won't hear a word you say and you'll be just as unhappy if not more." 

In your case, maybe the advise would go something like "do you want to be more in debt with possibly another child..."  or {insert whatever applies in your situation}  In other words, there are likely ust as many reasons to leave, probably, as there are to stay.  Just take your time and weigh them all and you'll know very soon what the right thing is to do.  If you're already looking for single support groups, I'd say that's a key piece of evidence!  And good for you!

Nobody will know you're not "divorced" yet.  Besides, in my mind, it's just a piece of paper.  You were probably divorced a long time ago in your heart. 

The other thing to keep in mind is that Only You know what's best for you.  Others can be good sounding boards, but ultimately the decision comes from within.  That's because you're strong and know yourself.  You do, that little voice inside is trying to be heard. 

[Sela]

Hiya Plucky:

I can be a real pain in the butt sometimes so no need to answer anything or comment, if you don't feel like it.
Just for you to consider.

I'm still reading way back here:

1.  To stay and continue creating the childhood for your children that you wish you had had, minus witnessing a good marital relationship.

 "minus witnessing a good marital relationship"


What are they witnessing then, if it's not a good marital relationship?
What are they learning?   This is important.

VS
2.  To leave and create a childhood for them that may, at least initially, be far from what you wish you had had because you could end up being a strained, tired, financially stressed, emotionally drained, depressed, depleted mother who hasn't done the work to tell what was her fault in the marriage and what was not.

Are you saying you're not strained at all now?  Not tired? Financially ok? (probably you're better off??). Are you then emotionally topped up and happy?  Are your resources all available, you feel strong, full of energy? (trying to hit the opposite of depleted here....hahaha.  Am I anywhere near?? ).

I'm going to be blunt and hope that you will believe I'm doing so to help, not to hurt you in any way.

Aren't you just co-existing ? ......  burying some of what you'd really like to say to your husband (repressing some big feelings)? ............... using a good deal of your energy/strength trying to co-exist and maintain control over some of your feelings?  Maybe this is why you are struggling with this decision?  Maybe your body, your emotions, your gut, your brain.......don't like all that?

How can you possibly be the best mother/provide the kind of childhood you are truly capable of providing under those conditions?

I'm really being brave here pressing "post" Plucky.  But not half as brave as you.  It takes courage to do either thing....stay or go.

I think you mentioned schedulling an hour for excercise for yourself??  Great idea?  How about.....30 min for excercise and 30 min for number 3, way back? (finding someone objective to talk with and support you, so you don't feel so alone, no matter what you decide).

The more you do to help yourself get and feel stronger and happier......the better.  No need to hurry up and decide.   Either way, it makes sense to get to a point where you are the strongest, well supported, happiest mum you can be?  What do you think?

Wishing you peace and strength and happiness ((((((((PLucky)))))))).

OOOOOoooooooooooooooooo (eyes squished shut icon please):

Hit "Post"!  Hit "Post"!!!

Sela

[Marta]

How can you possibly be the best mother/provide the kind of childhood you are truly capable of providing under those conditions?

I'm going to be blunt and hope that you will believe I'm doing so to help, not to hurt you in any way.

 

But not half as brave as you.  It takes courage to do either thing....stay or go.

Sela, ditto from me.

Plucky, there are times when I kinda know what the right thing to do is, but don't have the strength/courage to do it, I feel too fearful, too fragile to take the right action, terrified that I was going to fail no matter what. In fact, I am going through such a period right now -- so I can completely understand how you are feeling, especially without any kind of support at all. I don't really know what one can do to get out of it. My recipe is to confront one fear at a time, to do one thing that will empower me. I see that you are doing the same, by giving yourself extra sleep and exercise.

I too have never found a T that I really liked. A mentor and the love of my life were the biggest drivers of change in my life. However, I think we need different kinds of people at different stages. A T, even someone who abused me in the end, did help me in many ways, especially by making me aware of the twisted dynamics in my life with my family, which is not something that folks other than T can do -- experts as they are in twisted behavior of twisted folks. No harm in exploring and trying, is there? I agree with Sela, you can work around your schedule to find time for help -- lack of time for 1 hour of therapy once a week does not sound like a real constraint. THink of it like jump starting a car. Once you have other sources of support lined up, you can get rid of a therapist if you are not comfortable with the idea.

DOn't worry about offending couples or never finding friends. I would want you as my friend in a heart beat if you were my neighbor! There must be others like me in the world. RIght now you are probably moving about in a fairly conservative circles, especially if you live in some distant suburb, but once you are on your own, that could change and you'd discover a whole new world of different kinds of people out there, ding many single parents.

((((((((Plucky))))))))))
Marta