Are people born - or made - evil?

[Portia]

I haven't tried to run a poll before. Hope this works okay. Everyone gets one vote (logged in people only I think…?). I’ll try and vote first. I would imagine it’s anonymous.

This is a question I enjoy asking people, to see what they think and why.

When I say are people born or made evil, by evil I mean ‘bad’, destructive, angry, hateful etc. Kind of relates to Tiffany’s thread and I’d be interested to see what people feel overall. 

Hope I’ve made the choices clear…let’s see if it works…please have a vote. Thank you.

[Portia]

Cool! It seems to work. And you can give replies if you want to, too. Or just vote and remain anonymous.

[darky]

this is a toughey!!  i think born. there are many people who go through terrible circumstances in their lives and turn out to be warm caring individuals. there are others who blame their evilness on their circumstances. on the other side, there are people who are given the best upbringing and are still evil.
i was reading on the net the other day. there was a serial killer, cant rememeber the name but he has offered his brain to science. he swears that they will find something wrong with his brain.

[Portia]

Thanks Darky I’ve been reading after your post and now I’m in two minds! Head injuries seem to figure highly in criminals (killers) and the studies of serial killers' brains are fascinating. But is it born or made – even by accidental damage (what if brains are damaged in the womb?)– seems we don’t know either way.

I’m hoping they don’t find some genetic reason. On the other hand…..

[darky]

it could open the debate even more if we can try to ask, what is evil? evil by whos standards? society? from one individual to another? is someone evil because how they have treated an individual? could a person have percieved anothers actions as evil because they have not known or presumed intentions? see in my mothers books i am evil, well the term she used was poisen. i think she is evil because of how i felt she has treated me and my sister. on the other hand my other sister, the choosen one, absolutley does not think our mother is evil, and probably thinks we are evil.
i think i am confuzzling myself here!!   i apologise, i am not very good at getting a point across, mores the point, im not sure what my point is lol!

[Portia]

I have a deep belief here which kind of contradicts the poll in the first place … I did ask two family members this question and they both said ‘born’ straight away.

I don’t think anyone is inherently evil as a person, but I do think people commit evil acts. Why they do it is the question for me…and Darky you said you think your mother is evil because of her actions, yeah, actions are evil! Calling her daughter poison.. that’s a terrible thing to say to a child, at any age. I’m sorry.

I get your point darky. Thanks for voting too (assuming you did). It’s probably a daft thing to vote on but I wanted to try it out………bye for now

[darky]

no not daft at all!! i just get some weird ideas in my head sometimes!! i hope i have not offended you!! (((((hugs)))))))

[Hopalong]

Fascinating...and I'd MUCH rather do this than work, but (so briefly):

I think it's also a language issue and I like to think about how language evolves.
They used to call depression "melancholia".
I think perhaps "evil" is evolving into "sociopathy" or even "extreme narcissism" or similar terms.

"Good" though, seems a word I'd like to keep forever.
I wonder if when I prefer to skate from "evil" to "pathology" if I'm trying to avoid some deeper question about faith.

I'm an agnostic but it's a painful position.  An honest one I can't simply discard, put something else in the slot. But if I had a more certain grasp on the langugage of faith I'd do better with the question of evil.

Maybe the greatest evil is apathy in the face of suffering.

Hops

[Moira]

Oops! I may have erased? my intro!...Anyone familiar with Dr. Robert O'Hare's cutting edge research into sociopathy? He's an internationally renowned expert and researcher in sociopathy and psychopaths out of the University of UBC in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada. My home town! Fascinating research. He did studies years ago hooking people up to brain scans and looking at the activity in certain areas of their brains in response to words. He flashed a number of words on a screen-neutral words like " chair, book" etc and emotionally laden words like" fire, blood, pain" etc. He had various test groups including people with anti social diagnoses etc from prison population...and really fascinating ( and no doubt some will be offended and consider this controversial!)- Vancouver Stock Exchange brokers! Hmmm! a whole 'nother diebate/discussion! Anyway...what he found was the brain scans showed distinct difference between normal subjects and sociopaths reponses to words in terms of what areas of the brain were stimulated. He found that with normal subjects, the emotionally charged words produced lots of frontal lobe activity and activity in centres where our conscience is housed. For the anti social and sociopathic subjects, however, the only activity- in response to both neutral and emotionally charged words- occurred in the base of the brain. where animal instincts are housed- sex, shelter, food etc- all the base instincts and not anything related to emotion, conscience, empathy etc. So...his research seems to support theory there is a genetic basis for anti social behavior and that these people have no access to feelings( other than envy, anger, rage, hate etc) or conscience. They see people as objects, are all about instant gratification and taking what they want, how they want, when they want without any thought to who they have to hurt or destroy. There is evidence on the other hand, that anti social people can be trained to recognize and respect- some, not all- consequences to their actions which can put the brakes on their destructive behaviors. All they have to learn is that if they do a), then they risk b) happening to them and if it's a criminal charge or significant loss, they may reconsider simply because of what it wold mean to THEM.So...i do believe that people are born genetically impaired in terms of being capable of feelings, specifically empathy and having a conscience. We may all look human but there are monsters walking among us in human form. I know many people find that a disturbing and difficult to wrap- your- mind- around concept. I come into contact with numerous sociopaths etc in the course of my work and it's chilling how many of them were exhibiting incredibly cruel and violent behaviors at very young ages- age 3, 4 etc. I am hesitant to use the term "evil" ( although I wholeheartedly understand the sentiment and am not totally opposed to the concept...serial killers come to mind, for one) because it's a value judgment and an emotional term( not to mention religious connotation). People without consciences are simply what they are, and in the extreme are killing machines- not unlike sharks. I agree with those who feel that Ns are anti social and often sociopathic. There are distinctions between all these diagnoses according to the DSM- some subtle. Look forward to other opinions! Hugs, Moira

[Hopalong]

That's brilliant Moira. I like the sharks analogy, as in an odd way its without judgment.
It helps to think that some people are simply unsafe.

OTHER people were not born with that genetic limitation, and then through environment (e.g., abuse) they became shark-like. But in some cases with love and help, these folks can turn around. (I keep remembering the young white separatist, reared on pure hate, who did an about face at the risk of his life...totally GOT the humanity of people he'd been taught to hate.)

Fascinating and helpful discussion. Thanks for all of the pieces.

Hops

[2224Jessica]

Hi Guys,
Great topic.....I think both. I think that ultimately people get a choice. I think that we live in an imperfect world and I think that noone is 100 percent good, or 100 percent evil. I think we all have a capacity to do and be evil. I do think it has to do with the brain too.  I think to deny emotions is a scary concept. This means that choices are not filtered through the heart or soul. I wonder whether any babies are born not having emotion. Or is the absent of emotion a choice. Did a pyshopath chose to ignore the heart of emotion somewhere along the line. Or was is a mental condition that forced him to be without that emotion. Do  sociopaths choose  to deny any good. I once read about a girl who was bought up by satanist and she had lost all memory of the horrific disgusting rituals that went on untill she was in her 20's. I think that sometimes people who are exposed to extreme evil either become just as evil or learn a way to protect of themselves what is good. Do you think that others who were bought up fine have chosen to become evil or were going to be evil anyway. Do you think that evil is about whats in the mind, heart or soul of a person or sometimes just the mind. I don't know but I think we all get a choice, a persons mind can't be 100 percent evil can it?
Jessica

[darky]

i think the same as you jessica. i dont think a persons mind can't be 100% evil. thinking about seriel killers in prison, they may well have battered, beaten, murdered people, or maybe they were involved in gangs, killing loads of people. BUT if they get their hands on someone that is classed as a peadophile.....................

[declarlib]

Darky wrote:
evil by whos standards? society?

Portia wrote:
I did ask two family members this question and they both said ‘born’ straight away.

Both points strike me relevant. Quite frankly some (many?) of society's standards of evaluation are designed to protect (tolerate) abuse, and are - in my book - quite evil. However, they tend to derive from psychopaths (sociopaths) rigging the system to protect themselves.

And I think that people who "would like to" believe that people are born evil are doing a kind of evasive maneuver - because if people are not born evil, then the rest of us (parents, etc.) have a LOT of 'splaining to do!

Personally, I take the Alice Miller (alice-miller.com) view that people are made evil by abuse, and that this is a cycle - and that we have to be aware of how we treat children (and one another generally) such as to turn it around - but, meanwhile, the culture has become somewhat, er, abusive, and it is difficult to find sane, healthy standards in most of our institutions. Of course, in such a situation it is much easier to simply say: "born" and blank-out accountabilitly. Easier, but not very effective.

I am aware of those studies where people have presumeably normal, healthy childhoods and still turn out bad, but I seriously question the standards of "normal" in our presently abusive culture. The important bonding that MUST occur at the time of birth (with the mother) is regularly and forcefully prevented in all hospital births around the world. And this is normal, but diabolically evil in itself. And not a minor point in the central question of empathy.

I think we really have to LOOK at what we are doing to children from the time of conception onward. And I think most people don't want to look, perhaps are afraid to look.

[Portia]

15 votes! I’m glad I did this now. I was a bit unsure at first. Lots of interesting thoughts here.

Moira,
I looked at Dr. Robert  D Hare (????same one?) website and books (http://www.hare.org/) and thought about his work, and him, and how he’s really cornered his market so to speak and so on. And it struck me that he’s looking at those people now, as they are today, and I wonder if he looks at how they got that way, peers right back into their backgrounds, genes even. I don’t think his stuff necessarily supports the genetic angle but I do think he’s made one heck of a name and business for himself. I’m …. sceptical and cynical (the more I know, the less I know, will I end up knowing nothing? I wonder that!). Very interesting. Thanks!

Darky
i dont think a persons mind can't be 100% evil. thinking about seriel killers in prison, they may well have battered, beaten, murdered people, or maybe they were involved in gangs, killing loads of people. BUT if they get their hands on someone that is classed as a paedophile

they’d be violent towards them? I kind of don’t want to go too far down this route because it may well cause lots of emotion here….but…I gotta say, if you mean what I think you might mean, I probably disagree. What I’d disagree with (and it might not be what you mean), is classing anyone as the lowest of the low, because I think that’s creating a scapegoat for all our bad stuff. Better to understand it I think. And understanding is in no way excusing it either. I’m no apologist for others! Hope you see what I mean?

Declarlib
And I think that people who "would like to" believe that people are born evil are doing a kind of evasive maneuver - because if people are not born evil, then the rest of us (parents, etc.) have a LOT of 'splaining to do!

Yes. I think many people who want to believe that other people are born evil are simply avoiding thinking about it. Whether it’s genes or environment, or a mixture of both, it might be different for each person? People may have brain damage in the womb, might have some physical defect from a chemical imbalance, might have bad early years experiences …. or maybe there is some wee part of a gene that can function wrongly, whatever. For the two people in my family, my guess is they don’t want to think about it and they’d rather believe in a black and white world. “They’re evil, I’m not and can’t be. They must be born like that because I can’t imagine anything happening to me that would cause me to commit evil acts.” Lots of fear and denial there! And downright ignorance. Stupidity. No imagination, no empathy.

The important bonding that MUST occur at the time of birth (with the mother) is regularly and forcefully prevented in all hospital births around the world. And this is normal, but diabolically evil in itself. And not a minor point in the central question of empathy.

It’s getting better I believe. Home births happen in the UK. Babies are put straight on the mother’s chest in hospital. It is getting better, slowly. Generally I agree. We’ve got big brains and lots of technology but we’re primitive in our understanding of emotions. And we treat children as objects, all the time. All the time!

LOOK at what we are doing to children from the time of conception onward. And I think most people don't want to look, perhaps are afraid to look

Yep fear keeps us from treating children with more respect than we give adults. And I think they deserve more respect than adults do, purely for practical survival reasons (of the species).

[Anastasia]

Put "Richard Kuklinsky, the Iceman" in your address bar and read about him.  They have made a couple A&E documentaries about him.  He was a professional hired killer who finally got caught.  He killed till he was in his 50's, a most prolific killer.  Really interesting study on good vs. evil. 
He has asked Dr. Parks Dietz (the psychologist who studied Jeffrey Dahmer, Son of Sam and so forth) WHY he was able to do the things he did.
Really, take a look at it.  If you can catch anything on him on t.v., you might get something out of it on what makes a person like this.