Is it ok to say: "I hate you."?

[sally]

I feel like a schmuck.  Sometimes, I wonder why I bother to post, why I spend time here:  DID NO ONE HEAR ME????????????????????????????

I JUST POSTED ABOUT EXPRESSING NEGATIVE FEELINGS IN A GENTLE WAY AND THEN PEOPLE PROCEED TO VICIOUSLY ATTACK STORM.

I'M DISGUSTED.

WHAT THE HELL AM I HERE FOR?  Why do I waste my time & my voice?  Am I wasting my time & my voice?

SOMETIMES THERE'S NO DIFFERENCE FROM THIS BOARD, THIS SO CALLED "COMMUNITY" AND THE STREET CORNER OR THE SCHOOL YARD. YES, I AM ANGRY because I feel FRUSTRATED. 

I AM HURT THAT WE STILL CANNOT EXPRESS OURSELVES IN A WAY SO THAT WE DON'T HURT OTHER PEOPLE EVEN IF WE DON'T LIKE THEM.

We don't have to like everyone, but must we blatantly sh*t on them?

We got it: some people don't like Storm:  OK: message received.  BUT, must people go for her jugular?   Can we express our dislike of a person while still respecting their humanity and not treat them like a piece of dirt????

Have we not learned anything?  Where is the healing?

I come here looking for kindness, gentleness & wisdom, but instead I find a middle school playground at recess, with threats of reporting the bad girl to the principal (Dr. G).  God, do we ever grow out of this????????????

Where is the wisdom?  maturity?  gentleness? healing?

When this board is good, it can be very good, but when it's bad, it's pointless & destructive.

AAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HOOWWWWWWWLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sela]

Hi all,

Referring from page 3 and onward:

Bean, no worries.  I took your intentions for resurrecting this thread to be good ones and I still trust they were.  You didn't do anything wrong.

Beth, thanks for saying you would have left that doc too.  Every bit of validation feels good.  Helps me feel like I'm not silly or over sensitive or whatnot.

OC, I guess there are a couple more examples of meanings of those words or what they're expressing, actually.  It shows that not everyone feels the deep wound I do when they use them.  I'm not sure there's an absolute right or wrong.....there's only what feels right for each of us.    This thread sure helped me see that.

Lighter, yep, wrote a few of those letters and sure told that doc a thing or two.  Burnt the letters but still....it's a great release eh?

I like your way of taking the opportunity to teach children how to use better words.  Some people missed that lesson, I think.  I agree it's not about having difficult feelings .....it's about how to express them.  I must say though, after I try nice, I do resort to blunt.  I do keep praying for more patience.

My daughter is older now and I think she is quite able to communicate her emotions.  She wasn't saying:  "I hate you" to me, during that session with the T.  I was trying to explain my reasons for one of my basic beliefs and the T took the opportunity to contradict me.

Later you wrote:

I prefer to connect instead of conflict.

Me too.  Sometimes, the only way to connect is to enter into conflict, imo.  Or draw a boundary, once conflict does not seem to be resolving.

Carolyn and Lighter, I found your interchange about nudging interesting.  Carolyn, it hurts me when I've been misunderstood too and Lighter, what a generous offer for all to join you down by the river...to laugh like children.  Sounds so refreshing!!

Catspaw, yep, it's hard to tell what's a safe experience/scenario.....when people poke fun.  I've learned that here the hard way (as I have a kind of wackie sense of humour and have joked around a lot....sometimes....at the wrong time....or at least......I'm guilty of not taking into consideration that others may not feel that safe or get my kidding....know I'm kidding even.  But never have I meant to harm, so I guess I'm not all bad).  I'm sorry you felt mocked too.  Not a nice feeling.

I think the thread did take an interesting turn and other than the post I found insulting, I have quite enjoyed it.

Iz, I like your definition of a nudge.  The one thing I would like to say about that is......I have to trust the person doing the nudging.  Otherwise, I feel put down, rather than pointed in a better direction.  Maybe that's just me or maybe that's typical?  I have no idea.   I'm sure I've nudged others without earning their trust first, so I'll have to pay more attention to that.   It would be nice to get the golden rule down pat some day.

Peace,

One other piece to consider for the nudgee, is whether the nudger has an agenda different than helping.

Bingo!  If one has had difficulties/conflicts in the past with the nudger, they are unlikely to trust that the agenda is a helping one.  Personally, I trust my instincts. (and I love the way you got carried away there!  Wonderful!  Glad your migraine went away!)

I'm not sure why you are apologizing?  You didn't hurt me.  Thanks for the hugs though.  Always, always, thanks for hugs!!

Hi Carolyn again, thanks for saying you do see and for validating my right to draw the line and for the hugs.   I appreciate your words and good wishes very much.

I've been away from here mostly....busy with my life and totally unaware of what's been happening here lately (I feel like I've missed something important but I have no idea which threads to read).  I came back yesterday to read and noticed a thread I'd started was revived and so, ofcourse, my curiosity got me to read from where it left off.

When I come to the board, I will often read something that I can relate to or I might offer something I hope is helpful or sometimes, I'll see something that gets me thinking further or reminds me of something I haven't thought about in awhile.  I was quite surprised and not impressed to see a critical analysis containing stuff ....well, I've already expressed my feelings about that.  I didn't need to be told which parts of the bible to read to learn anything and I doubt very much others here need that instruction either.  I felt insulted, more than anything and yep.....I made my boundary clear.  I've already tried being polite and asking for respectful exchanges.  Now, I don't want any.

Thanks for your comments and no worries about not reading the post until later.

Lighter, no need to apologize.  You didn't hurt me.  I'm not sure why you think you did?

I think I should apologize to you because I should have explained, at least a little, of the history.  I should have said:  "Imagine the person posting to you is someone you've had major conflicts with in the past".  I'm sure, that would have helped to clarify my response to that post.  Sorry for not being clear.

Cats paw, absolutely no problem with anyone talking about anything they wanna in whatever thread they choose.  It's a free world and a public board.  If I want to stick to a topic, I have no trouble asking and people will respond.  I don't own any thread or wish to control any, in that way.

I appreciate that you don't want to distract or dilute....that's very considerate of you.  Sometimes, it does offend people when that happens but my feeling is....conversations go where ever they go and I don't have a problem with it.

You too......I see no need for any apology.  What are you responsible for?  What hurt did you cause?

Hiya Bones, I haven't seen that commercial.  Again, another meaning for those words "I hate you" (which I guess is really something like......I want what I want and I want you to let me have it).  Interesting.

Hi there Sally, you almost got it right.  In my original post, I said the T told my daughter "It's ok to say I hate you" (as in....it's ok to use those words toward another person.  He wasn't specifically referring to me).

What was upsetting to me was that he was directly and with body language that was quite smug.....contradicting what I had just expressed/explained as one of my basic beliefs.  It was the nullifying and belittling effect of his words that upset me.  The fact that he, in his position of power, was ....in cyber terms......deleting what I felt/believe and inserting his own feelings/beliefs.  That and plenty more.

Thanks for validating my hurt and for pointing out that using those words is emotionally and verbally abusive.  I feel abused when those words are said to me.......depending, I guess on who says them.  Like you said, the reason for the hate is also important.  Also thanks for saying I am wonderful for  actively trying to improve my relationship with my daughter.  Too kind of you because really, I feel it is my obligation to do so.  I'm the parent and I will always feel it's my duty to keep trying to connect with my kids.

Ami, I'm glad you feel stronger when you stand up to a bully.  So much better than saying/doing nothing and then feeling trampled on.

Once more, Bean, no apologies needed.  Thanks for your validation too.  Yep, I'm sick of it.  No need to ask Dr. G for help I think.  You are clear too and I hope you have been heard.

Hops, see you on another thread and no worries.  I don't blame you not to want any further engagement.

Enough is enough!!

Sally, I'm sorry this thread has upset you.  Perhaps you would understand if you had been one of the previous attackees.  In the last real interaction I had with Stormy, I stated that if she were to speak respectfully with me, I would go there with her.  I'm sorry you do not understand how I felt disrespected by her post but I did.  I don't find her way of cutting healing.  I'm sorry you don't see it and that is quite understandable.  I hope you never have to experience that.

Quite the contray, I'm afraid.  This is not pointless.  I think I've made my point very clear.  So have others.  You don't get it or understand it but that does not make it bad or destructive.  It might be more peaceful, from now on.  We'll have to wait and see.

Sela

[CB123]

Sela,

I just wanted to take a minute to say "hi" to you and to tell you how much I enjoy your posts when you pop in for a minute or two.  I especially enjoyed the one awhile back about the dogs and cats!  Do you remember?  Having had both, I could laugh at how true it was.

I just wanted to take a minute, too, to say that I appreciate the boundary that you set here and the courage it took to express it.  I have been following this thread a bit, as I can, and I saw immediately what was happening in Storm's post.  Can I say that I am still trying to feel out the proper etiquette for the board, and so didnt know how to respond--if at all?  I have been the recipient of the same jabs and have noticed that commenting at the jabber usual escalates things.  If you ever notice me "ignoring" such, it's because I truly don't know what would be most appreciated by the jabbee on their behalf.  Nothing worse than coming to a jabbee's defense and ending up part of the problem! 

Hops, I like your analogy about the blood in the water.  Most apt.  I think that for those people whose mother-wounds have not healed, there are some personalities and situations that bring up too many memories of loss.  And that makes me ache for them, although I seem to be one of those personalities. 

Sending you much love, Sela,

CB

[lighter]

Wow, Sela... thanks for taking the time to respond to all the posts...... I was wondering where you went; )

ps  I apologized bc I didn't want you to think I was condoning something (bullying) that you felt was happening to you.  I just didn't know the history or see it the way you did.  I was sorry that you were upset. 

I also want to say.... sometimes I skip posts, skim posts, read the first 4 words then move on bc I don't have time to read all the posts here.  So..... I might actually MISS something that is obviouse!  Pointing something out to me, is perfectly acceptable but I like to be asked for clarification before going straight to breaking bottles on the bar; )

[Ami]

Dear Sally,
  I am responding in a general way,NOT to specific issues on the thread.
  Sally, my problem was that I was  living,sitting prey in real life. My M made sure that she denuded me of my precious core so I would become  living prey. I was a sitting duck for every abuser to S##T on.
That is what happens when we get abused.
I SEE now b/c  I STOOD UP for myself.THAT is how I learned..  All the kindness, gentleness and KUMBYA's would not have taught me strength. What taught me strength was getting in the face of my bully and shouting-NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
  Sally,IMHO, you have an opportunity to stengthen  your voice here. It is an opportunity--not a curse.
  YES- this ( and every other environment) is like middle school. My H is a doctor and the hospital is like middle school. My S(older) is a manager in a restaurant and that is like middle school. My other s(younger) is in a fraternity in college and that is like a middle school.
  When I had a party ,there were woman there who had been joking for a long time about marrying my H and being the "wife'. So,I had to be the best me that I could in THAT setting.
 This is my strong opinion. Our main problem is that we cannot cope with real life. When we get our voice, we can protect ourselves. THEN, we will never,ever,ever be abused again.Our strong voice is our INSURANCE policy to every STINKING  abuser out there.
 Sally,I love and respect you. My passion is for my poor lost core---not any sort of anger toward you 
                                                         Love  Ami

[Certain Hope]

((((((((Sela)))))))))

((((((((Bean))))))))

I am glad to see people talking openly about this on the board, instead of trying to cover up hurts with smileys and forced civility.

Sela, now I feel like this was a sort of dare to you... and I don't even want to try to imagine the whys behind it. I'm just glad that you declared, "no more!"

Sally, I would like to talk with you about the views you've expressed, but I don't want to hurt or offend you and I'm afraid to be misunderstood right now.
My own personal experience with this is very fresh in my mind - and I did call to Dr. Grossman for help - because I saw no other alternative when JacMac/ Guest101/ Authentic/BC321/etc. would not leave me alone following her last departure from this board.
Remaining silent and ignoring her abuse never changed a thing.

If you'd like to discuss this further, please let me know. For now, I only want to say that there is nothing at all childish, imo, about seeking help from the authorities in place in any situation.
(((((((Sally))))))))  I know this seems to you like a horrible encounter, but I hope that at some point you will see just how very healing it is to be able to speak up and ask for help.

With love,
Carolyn

[cats paw]

Hi Carolyn,

  Glad to see you came through the dental visit ok.

  Are you saying that you know for a fact BC321 was Authentic, or were you just stringing together the names of those you felt
  would not leave you alone ?

  Just need some clarification about the way you wrote that with the /'s.

cats paw

[reallyME]

I've been reading the squabble between Stormy and Sela (I think?) and i have to say that i have no clue what it's all about, but am going to read some of STorm's posts to figure out her style of posting, and see how I feel about it.

~Laura

[Certain Hope]

Hi Carolyn,

  Glad to see you came through the dental visit ok.

  Are you saying that you know for a fact BC321 was Authentic, or were you just stringing together the names of those you felt
  would not leave you alone ?

  Just need some clarification about the way you wrote that with the /'s.

cats paw

Hi, cats paw,

Thanks! Just making a dental appointment takes every bit of my strength, let alone sitting through one and anticipating another one next week, but it's getting easier as I feel more able to take care of myself and my own needs before they become urgent.

I am saying that there is only one person on this board who has refused to leave me alone... so far...
 and that is JacMac, who has also used the names guest101, authentic, 321BC (please excuse me, I mistyped it the first time), ABC, RealityCheck, and others.

I'm stating this here as a dose of preventative medicine, because of the repeating nature of the cycle in which this poster engages.
Anticipating the "next time "- and there always seems to be one - creates a level of dread in me of which I am ashamed.
So in the event of another next time, I am stating my intent to not sit quietly and watch my bp rise again, unaddressed.
At such a time, I will speak up immediately and reference this cyclical pattern without shame, and without fear that I'll have to explain my feelings to those who perhaps weren't around to witness the first 16 months of my struggle.

Carolyn

[reallyME]

Wow...I guess it never occurred to me that JacMac was still here, but under different nics.  I spose anyone can do that actually.  I did it once that I can recall too.  As a habit though, I'd rather just be reallyME.

Proud of you too, for going through with the dental appt.  I have a teeny filling that needs to be dealt with, but I'm waiting till Medicaid comes through so I can do it at a regular dentist and not have to go through what I did with the extracted tooth.

~Laura

[Sela]

Good morning all,

Hiya CB, good to see you too.  I enjoy reading your posts tvery much too.  I hope things are going well in your life now.  I'm sorry I haven't kept up.

Thanks for saying it took courage to set such a boundary and I do understand about not feeling sure about when and when not to enter into it all.  It's tricky and I have often felt the same.  You have to go with your gut, I think.

Which, I must say, I feel guilty about something now...... because I really had no desire nor intention to encourage group think or start a war (rally people, as I have been accused of before....not at all what I had in mind or wanted).  Rather, I felt like I was being prodded and pushed (the beginning of the bullying again...the start of ......a pattern.....) and I wanted verification, I guess.  Am I nuts or what?  Does anyone else see what I see or feel what I feel?  Is this starting to happen again?  Those are really the kinds of questions I had in my mind and I did not expect so many people to respond as they have.

On the other hand, if a person burns enough bridges, sooner or later they will end up on an island.  I honestly had no idea so many bridges had been burnt and can see why this is the ideal opportunity for those who have been feeling a need to express themselves......to do so......some, with gusto.  Afterall, the request was that we be straightforward.  That's why it is said:  "Be careful what you ask for because you might get it".

I'm am truly into trying to understand, asking nicely, being kind with my words, etc, most of the time.  But when that doesn't work, I am not afraid to cry out and if I need/want help....I guess it's another delmema....to ask or not to ask.  This time I asked and thankyou all for responding.  I so appreciate your support.

Lighter, thanks for explaining.  I get it.  You don't condone bullying.  Me either.  Thanks for saying so and for your support and your concern for my feelings.  That means a lot to me and also is brave of you. Thanks.

I skip/skim posts too sometimes.  No worries.  There's no law.  It is often why I hesitate to post...because I haven't read it all or am not aware of stuff.  But sometimes, I read a little and post accordlingly.  I think it's all that is possible.  Not many have time to read every word of every post on every thread.  If so....that person has waaaaaaaay too much time on their hands.  Come on over to my house please?  Maybe you will help me with my weeding?

Bean, that's it!  That's what got to me too!  The old "pattern" starting up.  Thanks for putting that into words.  And yep, lot's of people here will have no idea what we're talking about but it feels so good to know that someone else does know and has said so.  I don't think anyone here condones aggression.  However, after years of living with a passive agressive.....a person learns to recognize a few things and eventually, one learns to draw a line (or not.....and stays unhappy, in an unhappy situation and feels dominated and victimized......for who knows how long?).  Not fun.  Been there, done that.
 

Drama.  Is that part of the draw? 

Cut!!! 




Thankyou Bean. Abuse is what I hate too and certainly, abuse issss action, not people.  People do choose to act though don't they?  Enough issssss enough.  See you on another thread too.


Hi Carolyn, I agree.  Talking openly is much better than hiding and hoping for some kind of magical peace.  It just ain't gonna happen like that here I think.  I'm not sure what you mean by this being some kind of dare to me but I can assure you, it was just me setting a limit.   End of rope type of thingy.   Everyone has a limit eh?

Sela

[Certain Hope]

Hi Carolyn, I agree.  Talking openly is much better than hiding and hoping for some kind of magical peace.  It just ain't gonna happen like that here I think.  I'm not sure what you mean by this being some kind of dare to me but I can assure you, it was just me setting a limit.   End of rope type of thingy.   Everyone has a limit eh?

Sela

Hi Sela,

Thanks for saying that you didn't know what I meant.
I didn't realize how unclear my statement was and now I see... sheesh, if you had a mind to, you coulda taken that one a mile! I am so glad you didn't... thank you!

What I meant is that I have a sense that you were being dared to come back to the board and fight... like a challenge had been issued.
Since (I think?) that's nothing but my own personal feeling, I apologise to both you and Stormchild, as I have no business expressing that when I am not personally involved. I'm sorry... feeling like I got carried away at that point.
I should have left that out and simply agreed to the fact that - when I put my name in place of yours on that pg 3 post, I did not appreciate it at all.

Sincerely,
Carolyn

[sally]

Hi Everyone,

Maybe I missed something in this thread.  I did read it thru, but maybe I missed something.  I sometimes miss reading words and sometimes get eye strain from reading computer screens.

Sela:  I certainly did not intend to diminish your pain or hurt.  One thing I have learned here is the importance of validating people’s pain.  My foo often did not validate my pain and so I felt gaslighted for most of my life, thinking I was wrong to feel hurt.  Now, if I feel hurt, then that’s what I feel, there’s no “right” or “wrong” about it.  So, Sela, I’m sorry if I made you feel that I invalidated your feelings.  I never want to do that to anyone.  So, I apologize to anyone who feels I invalidated their pain.

I guess I felt triggered because I did not see what Storm did that was wrong, but that’s my perception.  I’ll re-read the post again.  So, I think this triggered me because my N parents would punish me when I think I didn’t deserve the punishment or the punishment could be excessive compared to the wrong I committed.  That’s what I perceived happening here, but that’s my perception, my emotional baggage and hence my triggering.

I am not a Kum-ba-ya person.  My tongue can be so acerbic that I could verbally & emotionally strip the flesh off of someone who I perceive as a “wrong-doer”: decimate my opponent.  I learned to be that way in my foo because that’s how I was often treated.  I was bullied and I therefore bullied others.  I want to change this.  I don’t want to be a bully, I don’t want to be bullied by others and I don’t like to see that happening to others. 

I liked this topic because, to me, it spoke of how does one handle a person that one doesn’t like or hates. 

I’m trying to learn how to handle a person that I don’t like without smashing them to bits, to be able to express my dislike, my disgust (so I don’t feel voiceless and I don’t avoid the conflict), while still feeling good about myself, that I left that distasteful person intact and didn’t shame them or wound them further. 

That I can say “shu, fly, don’t bother me” instead of taking a hammer and pounding the life out of them; that I don’t harm the other person while still honoring my feelings. 

During a conflict and when the conflict ends, I want to feel good about myself, that I haven’t debased myself by using dehumanizing offense & defense tactics (even if my opponent uses them), while still honoring my feelings by not being voiceless and not being a doormat.  If the person still persists or does not understand that I want to disengage, I will have no contact with them.

This is something I’m working on and I’m trying to cultivate wisdom, insight, gentleness & healing to achieve it. 

I’m wondering:  Does anyone else have this goal?

I would like to respond to everyone individually, but unfortunately, I don’t have the time to do so.  However, I want to say to Carolyn that I was appalled at what happened to you with those pms.  Carolyn, I can imagine that you must have felt attacked and violated.  ((((((((((Carolyn))))))).  I certainly agree with asking Dr. G to step in and help.  I know it sounds cliché, but that person needs help and I hope he/she gets it.  And Carolyn, you have been so helpful to me, so this bizarre attack hurts all the more.

Thanks for listening everybody. 

Love,
sally

[reallyME]

Sally,

I feel like I can relate to you really well.  The analogy you gave of saying "shew fly" versus pounding the life out of it with a hammer...I can identify with that.

Please do keep posting your very descriptive analogies.  I feel like I might be doing better in this stuff.  I also realize that sometimes it's best to just opt out quietly.

~RM

[Ami]

Dear Sally,
  You expressed your goals so beautifully and eloquently. They are wonderful goals. I understand what you are wanting.
  I TRY to conduct myself that way. However, there are never black or white easy answers in life or in behavior.
  I was thinking about that today. My goal is to conduct myself in the way that you described. However, to be aware that I will ALWAYS  make mistakes along the way.
  That is what the Bible calls "repentance" b/c God knows that we will all make mistakes, even the greatest of people.
  I guess that the old adage, "That is why they put an eraser on a pencil" applies here.
 I am so happy to hear from you ,Sally                      Love   Ami