Patience

[moonlight52]

Hi P   YOU ARE A LOVING PERSON THANKS FOR ALL YOUR KIND PMS ABOUT MY TUMMY TROUBLE .
           YOUR KIND SUPPORT MEANS ALOT TO ME
           WHAT YEAR IS IT MAN 1968
                Love and peace man
                   Moon

[Portia]

Sela,
this is what I feel right now: frustration. Okay. I’ll try really hard to concentrate on your questions but you know what? What do I feel….I feel: this is hard work. I spend all day awake and asleep trying to understand myself, for...two years now?...and I don’t want to have to explain but I will, since you ask and because I’m still feeling guilty for being an idiot. But first

Moon
I want to be in 1968, amongst the chaos and confusion of big changes and the best year ever for ‘popular’ music! Thank you Moon for posting. I don’t see much fear in Moon these days.

Going back over the page…..

Hops, thanks for your thoughtful post.

LoH, yes that was a thought-provoking post from Dr G. “Talk about it” is what keeps me going. Jaw jaw better than war war.

Teartracks

I don’t mind a cross-examination, I like it! Gives me a chance to yak away. The thoughts about a couple of therapists lurking and or posting – if they’re lurking, hope they’re gaining something that will help them and their clients. If they’re posting, they’re keeping the board going and that’s great. Hidden agendas? Well if they existed and they have hidden agendas (such as ? writing up a research paper? Getting fame and fortune?), to be honest, who cares? I mean, what does it matter? I have personally benefited so much from being here and I’ve probably done it all myself….that means, I’ve been honest and wanted to learn.

A bit like Hops’ thread on intention – what I give out, even if it’s my anger, hurt, pain – I get back and I learn from it. I have to give myself, my story, to learn from it. We cannot see ourselves as others see us, that’s a fact, and here we get the chance to open up in ways we can’t in real life. It’s my choice to post what I do here. Nobody makes me do it. So even if there were hidden agendas, does that affect me? No.

I get what I get from here. Learning, being vulnerable, works for me. Overcoming fear and lack of trust, huge issues for me. But then I have made a real effort to be here and I’ve made the time – lots of it – to do it. I get what I put in! I haven’t felt violated, betrayed or duped at any time. Not true. I’ve felt it often! But I’ve stayed, I’m persistent. And when I’ve felt those things? It was in my head, it wasn’t on the board. Posters here do what they do because of what’s in their heads. Nobody knows the ‘real’ me. Even I don’t know the ‘real’ me (yet).

Also, what about the probability factors and available evidence: probability? Who the heck is going to be that interested – remotely – in one person’s story? There are stories all over the internet; people can’t wait it seems to me to bare their souls and the rest of themselves! I think we live in a culture of personal over-exposure – reality television, Trisha/Oprah type stuff, the media….here is an oasis of sense and deeper mental exposure and I like it. Hey nobody who posts here is going to come around my house and punch me on the nose – the beauty of anonymity. It’s only our heads that cause our fears.

Thinking someone out there wants to manipulate and use me - where do those unrealistic thoughts come from? Okay for a conspiracy theorist, those thoughts are real. But I think it’s possible that some conspiracy theories are started by those in power, to keep those not in power occupied with nonsense – it’s possible (is it probable? Does it affect me? No, then I don’t give that much attention). Who cares whether we landed on the moon or not? Who cares whether they were alien spacecraft or secret human-driven experiments? The point is: it doesn’t matter unless it affects my life today directly. If I’m offered a trip to the moon, it matters in my decision-making. If a saucer-shaped thing lands in my garden, I might ponder about what it is based on my historical and cultural conditioning. Or I might think I need to see a shrink! Gosh one question and I’ve gone off on one. Sorry. Next…

Would it be accurate to say that you were looking for a response with more  than smileys and words of assurance, that you were a big girl and that you would bounce back as always?   

Well yes, but I was rather barmy at the time, living in my own version of reality which bore little similarity to reality as it seems now. I was taking a huge risk and it didn’t ‘pay off’ in the way I imagined. Not to worry though, because what has happened is okay with me. Stuff happens, I survive and here, nobody gets physical. 

Just to clarify, were you wanting mentoring only on counter-transference or in a general way?

Erm, I was thinking counter-transference and a general ‘what’s really going on here’ truth-seeking approach. I was trying to make sense of something I couldn’t understand, or couldn’t square in my head. I was confused about two distinct things and, interestingly, that’s what sent me into an alternative reality of my own making. I made huge leaps in assumptions and decide to go with it, and I was wrong. I don’t do this in real life; I’m actually overly cautious and risk-averse, but realistic, I think (everyone told me I should buy a house when the market was high; I ignored them and bought at the bottom, i.e. on important things like money and physical safety, I trust myself and don’t take risks).

Intelligence is worth zero without experience and understanding I think. And what type of intelligence? It’s the ‘bright’ folks who go really mad I believe. Yes. Another assumption of mine. Most psychiatrists seem really bonkers to the rest of society. I was chatting to my neighbour over the weekend. In the garden, within five minutes we were discussing depressive realism and what’s normal. She wanted to talk about: is it everyone else that’s normal or is it me that’s normal and the rest are mad? The fantastic irony of that struck me later and I admit I had a huge laugh. Do normal people stand in the garden discussing what’s normal? Hahahaha! (If she reads this, will she know who I am? Surely we weren’t the only two people on the globe having that conversation over a couple of days? This is my thought process: Probability of being ‘known’ + realistic assessment + what’s the worse that could happen anyway? = trust of self-judgement.)  Oh hang on there’s a knock at the door……I’m joking.

Managing something. Um. This was about what I perceived on the board and I was wrong. This was my alternative reality going haywire. I tend to think that there is a grand plan sometimes, that there are good wise people doing things behind the scenes for everyone’s benefit (like a faith), but this is me projecting. Wanting my parents to be omnipotent and loving etc. I try to grow up, try to take responsibility for myself and my thoughts, but these old childlike wishes – magical thinking to an extent – come sometimes. That’s how I see it. It’s no big deal. Lots of people do it, just don’t admit to it in public very often.

Wanting to flush out evidence that she may or may not be a lurking/posting psychologist?

Oh no!! If there are any, I want them protected! (as if they couldn’t protect themselves if there were any? Ha.) I look for the actual positives, not the potential negatives. I’ve survived and thrived so far and I will survive. What good would flushing someone out do? Consequences? And quite frankly, how on earth would I do that? I couldn’t. It’s practically impossible isn’t it? Have a think about it. What if I was a hacker? I could maybe find IP numbers and trace them back and then break into someone’s office, look through their papers………for what? See how daft this becomes once you take it to logical conclusions? And what’s the objective? Who does this help?

More clearly: exactly what harm could I come to here? That’s what I ask myself every time I get a weird paranoid worry. Then I realise I’m being grandiose: how on the earth is anyone so interested in me (just me, only me), that they would bother to follow my every word? Haven’t other people got lives?

Dorothy Rowe says: ‘The comfort of paranoia is thinking that someone, somewhere is thinking about you.’ The awful truth is, they’re all thinking about themselves and unless you offer someone a sure fire way to make money, or you walk into the path of someone intent on physically injuring another human, you’re pretty safe. If you’re entangled with a narcissistic individual, you have the choice to exit the relationship. Hey I think I’m going into lecture mode so I’ll stop myself now.

Thanks TT, I enjoyed that. All written as my truth to help you (if you think like this) decide your level of trust, maybe look at your way of looking at the world (is it realistic or just a bit unrealistically pessimistic, based on actual events and what is happening right now?). Maybe I overstepped the mark there. I hope not. Take care and thanks again, I mean it, writing this helps me clarify my own thoughts too, when I write I test my assumptions and theories about myself and the world. It all helps.

[Portia]

Storm

I don’t know what to say…I’m sorry that you’re sorry (I accept that you are) and I am sorry for what you feel about all this, especially:

I'm sorry. I truly hope that nothing like this will happen here again. I personally intend to do everything in my power to avoid it.
 
I hope you change your mind about this.


Sela,
thank you for your kind words above.  Shall I answer your questions from over the page?

Now I’m reading about feelings and thinking….I better go back over the page, coz that’s what this is about I think. Setting my feelings aside, not knowing them, being afraid of them?

You didn't think I'd believe you?
 
I didn’t know if you would take the time to try and understand me. Time is precious. Giving time is almost everything. You might decide your time is better spent elsewhere. I can’t affect what you decide if I’m being truthful. I could grovel, I could implore, I could threaten, I could cry, I could bribe, manipulate, but really, I’d rather you decide what you want to do. I’d rather you do what you want out of your own free will. I’m not into self-serving manipulation (as far as I know).

You are ready to run 'cause maybe I might get nasty?

No coz you can’t thump me here. In real life? I was in the supermarket car park. I heard shouting. About 50 yards away, a big man was shouting at two scrawny male teenage trolley-collectors. They looked shocked. He was close. I heard him shout “if you’re taking the piss out of me I’ll jump on your f***ing head”. I was ready for flight or fight, depending on what happened next (go and get help, go and intervene). The man shouted himself out, turned and stomped away, the teenagers looked at each other and did those “what a nutter! Shame eh?” looks at each other. Now that’s a normal reaction I thought, and got on with my shopping. But I was ready to act, for sure. Some people are crazy out there, a few are dangerous. It’s safer here.

I like being believed, but that doesn’t mean that you understand. Belief is acceptance. I accept that’s what you think, I believe you (but I don’t necessarily understand why you think that way, what you feel etc).

I’m glad you’re not going to get nasty though! That does feel good. I’m not going to get nasty either.

I'm glad you exposed yourself here and said how you feel like shit and confused and misunderstood and have a sick feeling in your stomach.  I'm not glad you're feeling all of that but I'm glad you said so.   I'm sorry for all you're feeling too.  It doesn't sound very nice for you at all.

Oh right, because if I don’t say what I feel, you don’t know? I could be having a sadistic party and you wouldn’t know, right? I could step right outside the character I’ve been for over two years and become a totally different person maybe. Very unlikely – but possible I suppose, if I think about it. But that would make me really quite insane? And if I was that crazy, would I have been able to sustain this? Again it’s down to probability I think. It’s possible, but not probable. But you need to see my feelings?

I don't believe you are an empty person without much humanity.

Thank you Sela. That’s a great use of belief yes? Because you can’t understand that, you can choose to believe it, based on your experience of me. I’m glad you do believe that.

You prefer thinking to feeling?

I can’t help but feel. I don’t decide to feel, I just do it. Feelings are just feelings. But I don’t let them dictate what I think and definitely not what I do, well….not most of the time, I don’t think…….

(Is it like being visual or aural? I’m visual. To say “I hear you” to me is false but I try for the benefit of those who are aural. But I would much rather read “I see what you mean”. I say “I think you’re on to something” not “I feel you’re ….”. I played around for a tiny while saying “I sense what you mean is….” but that *feels* false too. The *feeling* there is my gut, my intuition, not some emotion. It’s intuition-feeling, not feeling-feeling. And I know what I mean by that difference!)

[Sela]

Hiya Portia:

I don't have much time this morning.  I appreciate that you took so much time to write all of that (and some of it....was quite enjoyable for you, as you said, so that's good).

I'm a simple person.  I am interested in your thoughts and feelings because I am your friend.   I will admit, I was hoping to hear that you feel some remorse (

I’m still feeling guilty for being an idiot.

might indicate something close to that, I don't know.....or that sick feeling in your stomach......).  And yes, I do ask because I can't know what your feelings are without asking.   I can guess, I can try to empathise or I can ask.  It helps me to understand you because you are not just composed of your thoughts.  Your feelings are also part of you and really....it's generous to share them.  You don't have to, just because I ask.  So thanks.

Why do I want to know you feel remorse?  Because I have this wild vision in my head that if I'd hurt you I would feel that.  Remorse, for one.  But I'm not standing in your shoes, so how could I possibly know what I'd do?  Or feel?  Or say?  And how can I possibly expect you to feel what I want?  How insane is that?

Which can I rely more heavily on...........my thougths or feelings?  Seriously, I can't tell.  Sometimes my thoughts are way off base......way out there in left field.........far away from reality and just figments of my imagination......projections of my experiences......or simply......mistaken perceptions......assumptions......or otherwise incorrect.

Sometimes they're bang on accurate.

Sometimes, my feelings seem more trustworthy.......more reliable.......more like animal instinct and worth paying attention to.  So I guess, I can't honestly say that I don't usually act on my feelings because I do.  I know I do.  Probably as often as I do on my thoughts, if it seems like the reasonable thing to do (which I guess.....my thoughts do get in there and help me to decide what, if anything, to do, about my feelings).

Sometimes, my feelings are exagerated.....inflated.......my thoughts drive them there.....my brain just hooks into what I'm feeling and feeds that feeling more and more.......so the feelings become intense.....like a massive waterfall.......unstoppable......over the edge those feelings flow.   I have to pay attention to my thoughts then and make sure they aren't doing me a big disservice.  I don't always succeed there either because I'm human.

I'm sorry you're feeling frustrated.

Shall I answer your questions from over the page?

Sure, why not?  I asked because I want to know.

I didn’t know if you would take the time to try and understand me.

I am trying and I do want to understand.

No coz you can’t thump me here.

Not physically but people can use words as weapons and cause others pain, don't you think?   I hope you believe I won't do that.  I don't believe you will.

Because you can’t understand that....

Hang on P.  How do you know what I can or can't understand?

you can choose to believe it, based on your experience of me.

That and based on my experience dealing with an empty person who seemed to have little humanity.

It’s intuition-feeling, not feeling-feeling. And I know what I mean by that difference!

I think I understand what you mean there.   It's tricky sometimes for me to tell the difference.  You?

this is hard work

Thankyou for doing it.  I appreciate the time and effort it takes. 

Speaking of which, I have to run off to work now.

Sela

[Portia]

Sela,
I’ve been reading through this thread. What a huge example it is of how we think we understand what’s going on with others, but we have little idea, or maybe some of us have and some of us not? There are some things I can talk about:

Storm, you said:

The countertransference being discussed here has to do, I think, with Portia's reaction to the 'faffing pita' joke recipe I put up on another thread, as well as a post she put up on the 'What Helps" thread that really impressed me.

No Storm! Not what I meant. I thought I’d experienced some counter transference elsewhere. I was reeling from it and really wanted some help; I didn’t make that clear at all. Sorry. If it was about the pita business, I would have said so, I hope. I was done with that when it was done on the board, or seemed to be? I don’t hold grudges like that or let things drift. Or if I let things drift, I say, ‘hey I’m going back to x, can we talk about that?’. Maybe me reeling from these new intense feelings, which I didn’t recognise as mine – maybe that sent me off into my unreal assumptions about you? I don’t know. Possible. Anyway..

Her reaction to the 'faffing pita' joke was negative and intense, and came as quite a surprise to me.
Well maybe it seemed like a negative and intense reaction to you, but it didn’t seem it to me? Maybe not just me? I don’t know. I thought your feelings in that were negative and intense, what I mean is, it frightened me to see *you* writing like that, I was scared by the vehemence. It wasn’t balanced imo. I later on that thread called you a ‘nutso’ Storm, I was worried about you. I tried to do that comfortingly, it’s okay to be a nutso kind of thing. I thought you got that? I was wrong, obviously. Assumptions!

I think the replies she was referring to above are my replies on that thread: I explained my intent [laugh at our monsters] and Portia rejected my explanation as unworkable for her. So I tried to accept her where she was, and felt badly for causing her pain which was never intended.

I still say: whose pain was it Storm? but that’s just my opinion.

The Unsinkable Molly Brown reference is due to her having reassured me that she's OK now.

Gosh that wasn’t the intention of me writing to you! I wanted help with understanding what counter transference is because I felt I had just been drowning in it, but it’s okay. But I wasn’t reassuring you about the pita thing; that was over and done with as far as I thought and I’m surprised you didn’t think it was?

Misunderstandings abound all round I think and it’s really given me food for thought about using the internet to communicate. It’s soooo difficult. We need to make assumptions to live our lives but….I wonder how much our internal realities match each others’ at all, even those in real life we are close to. It’s upsetting isn’t it? I think for us to understand just one person in our lives is difficult enough, we’re such complex-brained creatures. Knowing what’s really going on – I wonder if that’s even possible? How do we know for sure what others are thinking, their motivations etc? Just wailing at the moon here. Gonna post this and come back.

[Portia]

Sela, your post back a page and then your post above, I hope all this makes sense.

I feel responsible for a lot of what's happened because it was my post to you about stuff you said to someone else that started this whole thing.   I'm the original worm-can-opener.

And I think you said that because you were upset about what you perceived was happening to me. So I’m the original worm-can-opener. And I was reacting to something else. And so on.

You liked Stormy's gift?  That vicious post.....seemed like a gift to you?

If someone challenges me and my thinking, it’s a gift, yes (even if it is not intended as such). I learn from my mistakes. It takes a long time for me. Of course I didn’t like the post itself, but I can see the benefits in almost everything…

What parts did you like?
 
I liked the parts that showed you doing exactly what I’ve done before and will probably do again. The parts about groups I remember in particular; I did that with Marta (‘and I would encourage everyone to say what they want to’….or something like that, dictatorial rallying stuff). (Sorry Marta.)

What was it supposed to be teaching me?

I thought it was teaching me, not you. What the lesson was, I couldn’t fathom. I was actually very shocked and angry with Storm but I decided to suspend the thought that this was actually intended as it looked, particularly given the closing line about the student. I still don’t know who the student was supposed to be?

What were you "a bloody chicken" about?

I wouldn’t dare post a post like that now (or would I, have I, do I know?). Maybe I’m too careful these days? A bloody chicken. Maybe I should say exactly what I think when I perceive that someone is being abusive and bullying? Because sometimes I think, is it just me that thinks this is way out of line? And I think hey, maybe others are too scared to say something, so maybe I should speak.

What did you want to say to me that you were too chicken to say?

Nothing at that point. I wasn’t talking about saying things to you.

What were you thinking I needed to learn?

I thought I was learning, not you. I don’t think you ‘need’ to learn anything, or if I do think that, I check myself and think, who made me God today? At least I try. Sometimes I post and when I read back I cringe. Or I cringe if someone points out to me that I’m acting like God. But I still do it I’m sure, we all do don’t we? No? Oh bugger.

What does it feel like to have hurt your friend?

Horrible. Awful. Like I have a vein of pure badness running through me. A vein I didn’t know I had and finding it is like this person you thought you were, it’s not true. What you imagined you were isn’t true and the ego collapses. You become the worthless part that you’re trying to build on. Everything becomes impossible; you – I – can’t build up a true personality because all the groundwork is laid. It’s too tough. It might be a better idea just to fake it through life, live with the lies; the lies being that I’m okay, I am worthwhile. Because deep down I know that’s not true. All this learning, it’s icing, it’s not the core me. Yah, those are the sorts of thoughts – or feelings – that can run through I reckon. I’m typing them so I guess I must know a thing or two? Or have I spent too long reading? Luckily I know my intentions, I know I didn’t act out of spite, malice, envy, anger, rage, jealousy, or to enjoy someone else’s pain. I acted to help. I trusted Storm and didn’t ask for confirmations, I didn’t ask her to talk to me. I accepted the story in my head and that was really unrealistic. In other words I'm a nutter, but a 'good' nutter. haha!

How about we talk about how you have hurt me by betraying my confidence and violating my trust in you?

I have hurt you by betraying your trust in me not to tell others what you say in private. I think that’s the same as violating your trust in me. How can I make it up?

Your reply above, Sela.

Yes remorse is what I felt, for sure. I centred the word in my head at the weekend. ‘Remorse’ kept flashing up at me. Sounds weird? It’s true. I thought “I bet this is remorse, I’m gonna check the definition”.  Silly? Nope I want to identify each emotion as it occurs. And you know I’m a bit strange about words. How do we know we mean the same thing by ‘remorse’????

But it’s generous to share my feelings? Really? Now that is a new idea for me, truly. Wow, why the heck would anyone want to know my feelings, all of them? What an eye-opener! You mean (some) people in real life might want to know how I feel? How am I going to deal with this new knowledge?

And how can I possibly expect you to feel what I want?  How insane is that?

Not that insane Sela, aren’t we all shocked when we do something that we think someone might like, and they chuck it back at us? Assumptions, expectations.

Hang on P.  How do you know what I can or can't understand?

I don’t! I have no idea. Thanks Sela.

About:
It’s intuition-feeling, not feeling-feeling.

For me, when I act on intuition, I think afterwards and can trace it back but the head’s talking, that’s how it …..feels! With feelings, I feel it physically – not in my head - and then I know it’s emotion, not intuition based on experience and thoughts, memories. Huge difference for me. Feelings come from stomach, heart/chest area, knees, neck muscles, hands (sweating), teeth, other muscles..yes?. Heart-warming, joy – comes from the chest. Fear comes out all over. Remorse, guilt, sadness, confusion, envy mainly in my stomach. Add in anger and that comes out all over too through the veins. Rage is blood-red. Add rage to brain power and it becomes cold focussed revenge, horrible, I’ve experienced that feeling once or twice. Then there’s neutral anger? Anger pulled in and with thought applied, focussed but unemotional anger. I bet that takes a while to master!

But I’m going to think about feelings again now. Thank you ((((((((Sela)))))))).

[Sela]

Dear Portia:

What a huge example it is of how we think we understand what’s going on with others, but we have little idea, or maybe some of us have and some of us not?

Isn't it though?  Incredible, really, how much and how easily stuff can be misunderstood.  Thankyou for taking so much time to explain what's going on with you and what went on.  I see that as a great gift.  A gift of time.  You bothered.  You took the time.  And your patience is admirable, in doing so.  Thankyou.

And so on.

Ya.  That's exactly how the blame game goes.
"You're to blame!".
"No, you're to blame!"
"No, you are!"
"No, you are!"

Except in this case it's:

"I'm to blame!"
"No, I'm to blame!"
"No, I am!"
"No, I am!"

Ok.  It doesn't matter.  Water under the bridge, as far as I'm concerned.

If someone challenges me and my thinking, it’s a gift, yes (even if it is not intended as such).

That's a fantastic and wonderful attitude and one I'd best take note of and try to copy.  I can see that as being the precursor to patience and like an answer to another one of my prayers.  Thankyou, P.

I'm so glad I asked about the parts you liked, what you thought that post was supposed to be teaching, what you were chicken about, and what you thought I needed to learn.   Here I thought it was allllllllllll about meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!

 

It wasn't.  Hahahaha!!  You're sooooo right!  I need to adopt the theory that very little is.  If I could only sink that into my one poor functioning brain cell!!  It's not always about me!!  Not!!  Usually, not!!

Portia,  I'm so sorry for all of the bad thoughts you had about yourself and how awful and horrible you felt.  You've taken on all of the responsibility for hurting me but actually.......it's not all yours.

I'm the one who doubted you long enough for it to hurt.  I allowed myself to feeeeel hurt when I could have suspended that belief......that you were hurting me........and asked all of these questions first.  Although, I know I can't control my feelings like some machine.  I did think to wait......ask......try to find out for sure.....but I also allowed the idea that you might be glad about Stormy's post to me and that......

is as you say.......simply because I did not understand the words.....or what you meant by them.

Some of the responsibility for my hurt belongs to me.

The good news is........I do trust myself and I kept telling myself that what I know of you is that you are honest and brave and to keep talking.   You are P.  You could have told me in one sentence:

"Look, I didn't mean anything.  Your hurt is in your own head.  If you don't believe me, then I guess that's up to you."

But you didn't do that did you?  You took the time to explain and the blame for hurting me and felt bad about yourself, even though you didn't do anything to intentionally hurt, even though your words were misunderstood.  Thankyou Portia.  Too much.

I know I didn’t act out of spite, malice, envy, anger, rage, jealousy, or to enjoy someone else’s pain. I acted to help. I trusted Storm and didn’t ask for confirmations, I didn’t ask her to talk to me. I accepted the story in my head and that was really unrealistic. In other words I'm a nutter, but a 'good' nutter. haha!

I believe your story and I'm stickin' with it.  No whistle has been blown.  There was nothing to blow about.
I do understand how your pm was misunderstood and how the need to alert me was felt by Stormy.  I'm still not sure why this had to be done here and not by pm but there must be a reasonable explanation for that too.  Or even if there isn't, it doesn't matter because as far as I can see, this is a good learning experience (for me, for sure.  for you?  for others?  I hope and bet).

I have hurt you by betraying your trust in me not to tell others what you say in private. I think that’s the same as violating your trust in me. How can I make it up?

By owning up to this....you are showing me that you are willing to take responsibility for your behaviour....which is detrimental to change.  I believe you are an intelligent person who willl learn from her mistakes.  You haven't said so, but I assume you won't do this again.  You can make it up by confirming this.
I so appreciate your putting this here.  It's risky.

Yes remorse is what I felt, for sure.

I believe you and I'm glad you said this.  You haven't asked, but I forgive you anyway.  You're a joy P!!  Not some evil person.

I know you didn't ask me this but I'm gonna give my opinion of it anyway:

How do we know for sure what others are thinking, their motivations etc?

We don't.
We have to ask.
We have to trust.
We have to trust to believe the answers are true.

I still trust you P.  You didn't slam a door and run away, even though you had no intentions of causing harm and I put the whole load on you.  It's not.  You took more than your share.  Thankyou for that.

I still trust most people's intentions here and elsewhere.  They count big time in my book.  Yours did/do, very much so, P.

By the way, I loved your description of intuition vs feelings!  Do you really feel feelings in your teeth? 

Mine must be dull.

Imagine going to a therapist with this problem?

"Hello.  My name is Sela and I have a problem feeling stuff in my teeth.  Do you think we could talk about it?"

  Sela

[Sela]

PS:  You were right Mud.

Trust does come before truth.

Here's what I've been thinking about it all:


Truth and trust are like.........the egg and the chicken.
Which comes first?

I want truth first.  Without truth, there can't be trust.
The opposite is also true.

Without trust, there is no truth.

So how does one tell?
Which is which and what is true and what is worth trusting?
Or who?

I have to trust to believe it's truth.
I have to have truth in order to feel I can trust.
How can I trust if there are lies?
How can I find what's true and what's a lie?

How do I ever know for sure about anything?
I can't.  I don't.  I have to trust.
I have to.

It's the only way to ever find truth.

Truth is fact.
Truth can be researched sometimes.
True feelings.....true motives.....true objectives....
can only be trusted.

There's no way inside anyone else's head to make sure.
To look for facts.
To proove those true.

The only way is through trust.

I ask for truth but I know I have to trust first.
I want truth first, before I feel like I will truly trust.
So I ask for truth.

But because I don't know if it's truth or not
I can only trust so far.
So many times.

Until I'm prooven right for trusting.
Until the truth is clear.
And then trust gets stronger.

Or if I'm prooven wrong
Truth also becomes clear too
And trust goes away

And all that is left......is truth.

[Sela]

Hi Stormy:

Just wanted to say that by "no whistle was blown", I mean that you are not some big bad whistle blower, in my mind, some snitch.  I understand that you did what you thought was right and you wanted to alert me.

By "there was nothing to blow about"......I mean in regards to P's intentions.  She did violate by sending private information but she did so to try to help.  Even so, I need to know what I say in a pm won't be forwarded on to others, so I see and appreciate your concern and effort to alert me.

Is this absolute?  If I said I was going to kill myself and burn my house down.....would it be ok for P to send that info to Dr. G, for instance?  Heck yessirree!!  That's serious stuff.  Emergency stuff.

There are no real absolutes, I think.  Just basic common sense.

What I don't understand is why you're not talking to me or accepting pm's.  But that's ok.  I trust you have reasonable reasons.

Sela

[Portia]

Hiya Sela

Patience is a key isn’t it? I don’t think it’s holding yourself back, repressing stuff that needs to come out (as I used to think it was – “be patient!” meaning you don’t count, you’ll have to wait for anything you want). Patience is more - allowing others? Not trying to force, change or manipulate others to get what you want. To get what you want through your own means and if you can’t, look elsewhere or wait, it’s about being relaxed, not about denial – denial of feelings or of desires. It’s about accepting, I think, not trying to change the world….oh dear clichés abounding…but about changing yourself, your own attitude. Until I ‘got’ this kind if thing, I thought it was nonsense, rubbish. That's the old unhealthy contemptuous scornful attitude, the false self defense.

You took the time to explain and the blame for hurting me and felt bad about yourself, even though you didn't do anything to intentionally hurt, even though your words were misunderstood.  Thankyou Portia.  Too much.

You feel bad, I feel bad. In the feeling stakes, it doesn’t matter who’s to blame, who’s responsible, the feelings have lives of their own, they don’t respond to logic eh? I feel bad that you feel bad, doesn’t matter why.

Someone is crying, I feel bad, healthy human reaction (unhealthy human reactions – laughing, getting angry or annoyed, shaming, being irritable, being shocked, trying to stop it happening etc etc). We can’t help how we’re built, even when we’re dys/malfunctioning, we can’t help it I guess.

“Negotiations and love songs are often mistaken for one and the same….” (Paul Simon?).

Misunderstanding at the root of all trouble and strife. Too much Sela? Not really eh? Just time and willingness and concentration because it matters. Thank you.

A very good learning experience for me. hugely helpful. Gotta watch those unreal story-making habits of mine. Gotta ask more questions! Check, confirm, trust, re-check, ask, change, live, grow, move on.

Thanks for forgiving me. I’ve not had to ask for that before so I don’t know when it’s time to do it. What I mean is, I haven’t had any chance to do it before. I think?

I am not making this mistake again, well, several mistakes all in a row. Lots of mistakes. But as for PM words, no, I won’t do it, nope. I will not panic ever again but if I do (!)……hey I’m human….i won’t send anyone someone else’s words on Pm without checking with the author. I wish I’d done that. But then I wouldn’t have learned all this.

Teeth! Grinding teeth, clenching teeth, all that stuff. Don't do that any more.

Trust and truth, how to: keep asking yourself: why. Why. but really, why? that removes the fear, the prejudice, the unreal thinking, the assumptions….etc. Waddya think?


Storm,

not talking here and not taking PMs? I don’t want to know. Just want to ask that biggie question - why – not for me to know, it’s not my business, it’s yours, only yours. Are you afraid? What of? I don’t know. Not asking for an answer. Just kind of , well, what else can I say? I’m talking to myself. Again. Doesn’t matter, I’m used to it and hey, I talk to the products on supermarket shelves and don’t care what people think. So the ‘why’ is for you, no answer required or expected here.

Take care all.

[Sela]

Hiya Portia:

I think patience is everything you've described and for me, it mainly involves tolerating delay.  In the 3D world, I'm a getter-done-fairly-organized-kinda person.  I don't like wasting my time.   It's one of the things I hated about commuting to the city to work.......sitting in those stupid traffic jams and thinking about all the other stuff I could have been doing instead.   I managed by changing my thinking and distracting myself, trying my best to be patient, etc.  But I didn't like it.

I guess, in life, there are all kinds of "traffic jams" and I have to find a way to put up with them.   I think patience is something that helps me tolerate so many of life's frustrations, like waiting.......and that's why it's always appealed to me to be something I want more of.  More give me more!!! (Hurry up and give me more!!! )

Misunderstanding at the root of all trouble and strife.

Did you coin this or learn it elsewhere?  Packed with wisdom and truth, I think.

I'm glad "it matters".

i won’t send anyone someone else’s words on Pm without checking with the author.

Thankyou Portia.    I'm sure you will keep with this decision.    Thankyou for exposing yourself here in this thread so fully and wtih so much honesty and bravery.

For me, it feels so much better forgiving someone who admits their error/behaviour, takes responsibility for it, examines it, humbles themselves by expressing their thoughts and motivations, expresses sincere regret and remorse, and offers/plans/decides to take steps to be sure it doesn't happen again/make up for it......than it does to just forgive someone......for my own good (so as not to harbour feelings of anger and resentment in myself.....feelings that seem to ferment).  No wonder you don't have to ask for forgiveness P.

Teeth! Grinding teeth, clenching teeth, all that stuff. Don't do that any more.

Glad to hear that!  That's a sign of wonderful healing, I think, improvement?

Also, I agree that "why?" is a good question to keep asking.

  Sela

[Portia]

Hi Sela, happy June! It’s so cold here! Get on with summer, darn it.

Traffic jams etc, oh yes. I’m good these days, I used to get terribly fret up and anxious. Now I catch myself and say ‘good thinking time’. Don’t miss an opportunity to fire up the grey matter. I bet you don’t either.

Did you coin this or learn it elsewhere?
  I just typed it but it’s what I’ve learned over the past two years. Everything that happens here is what happens on a macro scale? Israel and Palestine, Iran and ‘the guys who are right’ (just one view) etc etc. Understanding is everything. Ignorance is not bliss (who said that? I want to ask what they meant). Thanks Sela.

No wonder you don't have to ask for forgiveness P

Oh I didn’t mean I didn’t have to! I don’t think I’ve ever been given the chance so I wouldn’t know the right moment to ask? My experience has been that I’ve been wrong, bad or mad, have been told that and punished, there was no chance of forgiving going on. Mind you at work there was a mistake and my boss tore me up for not telling him (and therefore making him look stupid for not knowing in front of his boss *sigh* - he didn’t care about the actual mistake) and by then I had worked out that I wasn’t necessarily bad. Mistakes happen.

Forgiveness, I was thinking, to ask for it seems out-of-sync. I guess it implies wanting to make up but if you’re involved in understanding and explaining, the forgiveness happens as a result and it’s up to the forgiver to feel it and say it. Forgiveness can’t be felt at will? It happens when it happens in the person who feels it. ? “Will you forgive me?” “I don’t know yet, keep talking” kind of thing. ?

Who what where when why how.....makes good journalistic writing but so often the last two are missed..

[Sela]

Hi P:

Yes!  Happy June to you too.  It's sweltering hot and humid here.  Still not "officially" summer.  My dogs are busy sleeping .....dog days of summer??  Is that where that one comes from?  Dunno.

I just typed it but it’s what I’ve learned over the past two years.

Very cool P    Very cool!!  Truth and wisdom P-style!!  I love it!!

My experience has been that I’ve been wrong, bad or mad, have been told that and punished, there was no chance of forgiving going on.

You are never wrong or bad or mad (meaning "crazy").  No one is, imo.  We might behave wrongly or badly or madly.....but that doesn't make us.......those things.  Behaviour can be changed but being told "You are bad or wrong or mad"???  What part of you?  Where?  All of you?  Seriously?  Not true!  Never true!  Or at the very, very least about most people alive.......rarely, if ever true.  Even the worst people have good in them.  And a child within too.   Being told this.....especially as a child......is cruel and destructive.  Shame on whoever did that!!  Their behaviour is wrong, bad and mad!!!!   

Mistakes happen.

No kidding!!  So glad you worked this out, P!!

There are mistakes and there are poor choices:
Using this episode as an example:

Mistake:  Not understanding words, posts.  (I did this too)
Poor choice:  Pm'ing private info. (with good intentions)

I think it's important to note which is which.  Mistakes seem the less evil of the two....but seriously....who hasn't made a poor choice??  Let that person step forward so I can kiss your stinky feet!!   

Sorry your boss did that to you.  Not right or fair, P.    I want to call him bad names. 

you’re involved in understanding and explaining, the forgiveness happens as a result and it’s up to the forgiver to feel it and say it.

I do see what you mean and to a certain extent.....I agree.

For me.......I choose to forgive....so it is up to me.  It's a choice.  I forgive almost everyone.......but not everything.  I don't accept especially poor behaviour, bad choices, etc......if the person continues to make them, shows no sign of being aware of them, refuses to own up to them, does not take responsibility for them, etc....or that they are acceptable.

But I do forgive the person and choose not to hang onto my feelings of anger and resentment toward that person.  I have to work hard to get those out and then.....I feel like I've forgiven ....them.

And if I make a mistake, or a poor choice, or behave "badly".......I feel sorry and want forgiveness (if I am aware that I've done it).  I want to make up, as you put it.  I also want the person to get rid of their anger and resentment toward me (there's that wanting the other person to feel stuff stuff again eh? ).  I don't like the thought of having hurt/upset or otherwise injured another and I'm usually very sorry that I did whatever I did.  Usually, I'm pretty good at taking responsiblity, etc for my behaviour and all the rest.

But I ask......for forgiveness to show that I am sorry.  It seems like part of taking responsibility and showing remorse.  Asking.  Not expecting.  (Not saying you did any of that P.....just my brain throwing it's stuff out here the way I've thought of it......might be waaaaay off).  It's just that some people do not choose to forgive until they are asked.   So I ask.  And some people expect others to ask before they consider giving forgiveness.  It's hard for me to tell.....who wants what?  So I ask.

For them as well.  Because I think it helps them to forgive too.  But you're so right.  It's up to them to choose and decide.

Why forgive?

How to forgive?

Good questions and I have my reasons.  Some of them are quite selfish, I think.  Lot's to think about P.  Thanks.

to ask for it seems out-of-sync

I'm not sure I understand what you mean?  Out of sync for whom?

  Sela

[Sela]

PS:  I say "anger and resentment" because it seems for me......by the time I get around to making a conscious choice to forgive for my own good.....I'm feeling anger and resentment.  Usually because talking never started, ended or didn't seem believable (back to truth and trust again  ).   That didn't happen this time because you took the time to explain and I to understand,  and it never got to a point of.........no talking between us.

No talking = no understanding, I think.

So talking is a big, big factor in the "how" of forgiving, imo.  No matter who's doing/done what eh?

[lightofheart]

Hi Sela,

I've been thinking over what you wrote for a while, and so much that's been said in this thread, and questions came to mind.

No talking = no understanding, I think.

So talking is a big, big factor in the "how" of forgiving, imo.  No matter who's doing/done what eh?

[/color]

What if the reason for not talking doesn't come from a lack of understanding/effort to understand and isn't a matter of who did what or forgiveness?

Do you think that silence can also be a case of not having anything to say? Not talking, imho, can be a result of excellent understanding: a person can understand another's POV with clarity and still disagree wholeheartedly. Or live by very different values.

When I look at the handful of people I've stopped talking to in my life (& feel blessed it's a small number) I'm not angry at them, and they're truly forgiven for the mistakes they made, which were no bigger than mine. I hope they're all happy. But sometimes a relationship just runs it course. Sometimes, the understanding arrived at is, no matter how much I cared about X, his/her core values were in conflict with mine. And too oppositional to peacefully co-exist in an ongoing way. I think there can be a lot of patience and compassion involved in kindly letting go of someone as the best means to avoid further hurt for either person.

Just one little take on (some of) the colors of silence...

Best,
LoH