Sarcasm hurts

[Certain Hope]

Hi

In dealing with the aftereffects of life with N, one of the things I've struggled to overcome is the temptation to employ sarcasm.
He was a master of this verbal assault-weapon, fine-tuned like a laser, ready to zero in on his target and burn away any semblance of identity that remained. It still slips out at times, but I'll continue to battle against it because I've become more aware of the damage it causes. For one thing, I think sarcasm destroys trust.
Also, the current teenager in our home (I've survived 2 ~ 2 more to go  ) has a way of demonstrating daily the aggravations of dealing with someone who is sarcastic, complete with eye-rolling and smirky expressions to complement her words. So I did a bit of research re: sarcasm and its root causes and just thought I'd share here.

Per Webster:

Sarcasm ~ A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.
A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule.
The use of sarcasm. See Synonyms at wit.
(Origin:Late Latin sarcasmus, from Greek sarkasmos, from sarkazein, to bite the lips in rage, from sarx, sark-, flesh)

yeah-huh... to bite the flesh... that's about what it feels like when someone targets you with sarcasm.

And again, per Webster,
Contempt ~ The feeling or attitude of regarding someone or something as inferior, base, or worthless; scorn.
The state of being despised or dishonored; disgrace.

And I would add - Disdain ~
To regard or treat with haughty contempt; despise. 
To consider or reject as beneath oneself

So to summarize, it appears that when we use sarcasm, we're showing that we think we're superior to others and view them as insects to be squashed?

I've read sarcasm described as the epitome of passive-aggression and when the target doesn't respond, she's often met with even more sarcasm. mockery, and ridicule, leaving her feeling alternatingly like she "should" respond, silly if she doesn't respond, and sorry if she does respond. No win situation indeed.

In C.S Lewis' The Screwtape Letters a senior devil writes to a younger devil about a similar type of humor. "Every serious subject is discussed in a manner which implies that they have already found a ridiculous side to it. If prolonged, the habit of flippancy builds up around a man the finest armor plating against the enemy [God] I know ... It is a thousand miles away from joy; it deadens, instead of sharpening, the intellect; and it excites no affection between those who practice it."

Sarcasm wounds the soul and kills the spirit, I think. Part of what makes it so brutal is that it can be both witty and intelligent. It's rooted in a judgemental nature  and brought to life by anger, envy, spite. I believe it's true that we're never so dissatisfied with others as when we're discontent with ourselves. Sarcasm is just another method of blaming others for what's wrong within us, I think, and as such it shouldn't be a part of my repertoire. Just my thoughts. Have a great day, everyone 
Hope

[Portia]

Hope, cool. I like it (your info that is, I hate sarcasm and yes, it has slipped out occasionally and I hate myself when I’ve done it. I feel dirty.).

(Note: on a board, how the heck do I know if someone is employing it? By my reaction of “urgh” I suppose, or my wry smile followed by feeling dirty and as though I’ve accepted a bribe? Feeling like I have access to some secret knowledge, a shared joke, a superior ‘knowing’? I think all those clues tell me when I’ve accepted sarcasm.)

So: we know what it is, we might accept it, how do we react to it? How to reject it?

Like this? 

Or like this? 

[Healing&Hopeful]

Oooooh, this post has made me stop and think.....

I used sarcasm the other day, regarding one of our Project Managers (who is a guy a get one with btw)....

He asked me to resource this guy, and then we were chatting about it and near the end of the conversation, he said "Can you let me know when he get's back to you?"

I said (sarcastically which is the point of this post)... "No, I'll keep that information to myself" and laughed...

He said "Ahh yes!"

Hmmmm.... I really should think more about this! xx

[Portia]

H&H

Haha! I laughed and didn’t feel dirty.

You said the remark to the person who was the ‘brunt’ of your remark.

He asked basically a dumb question.

I’d think: Hey you’re asking a dumb question. Why are you? Either you have zero idea about processes (? unlikely) – or you doubt my ability to carry out my job correctly? So which is it buster?

So I make a joke, instead of taking his head and banging it against the nearest wall (I fantasize that part).

He responds vaguely correctly, realising he’s asked a dumb question (maybe he’s not sure why it’s dumb)…..and says: "Ahh yes!"

If it had been me asking the dumb question I would have said: "Ahh yes! SORRY."



Maybe a neutral response (for you) would be: “Of course. That’s my job.” (but when dealing with idiots who insult us, hey, I sometimes give what I get and speak their language, it just might filter through their thick skulls?)


?? thoughts?

[Healing&Hopeful]

Maybe I am being too black and white about this?


So do you think some sarcasm is ok????


xx

[Hops]

Hope,
WOW.

I agree. That's a wonderful quote from Lewis. Thank you.

I think it's not a good idea to address someone directly with sarcasm. But sometimes when I'm with a friend and we're sharing indignation about some other situation, we can vent together with sarcasm...to release some shared anger. Then I think it's not harmful, because we're not saying it to a target. But being the target of it I experience as being belittled.

H&H,
Wots "pants"?  

Hops

[Healing&Hopeful]

Wots "pants"?  

/quote]

First of all Hope... that was so rude of me as I didn't comment on your post.  I hope you'll accept my apology.  You wrote an amazing post. 

"So to summarize, it appears that when we use sarcasm, we're showing that we think we're superior to others and view them as insects to be squashed?"
This was the part that really hit home with me.

(((((((((Hope)))))))))))

Hops - Pants means that somethings not as good as it could be.  It's not really bad, just pants. xx

[Portia]

It’s tricky in the real world.

"Can you let me know when he get's back to you?"

“Yes that’s my job.” (blank face, even voice)
(This potentially shames him. If he’s smart, he’ll realise he’s been insulting, either on purpose or by accident. He hasn’t trusted you to do your job. He’ll have to apologise. He feels bad. Result: you could both feel bad. A challenging encounter.)

"No, I'll keep that information to myself" and laughed...
(I take it you judged this person well enough to know that he would share your joke? He would realise that he’d asked a dumb question and found it funny. He has the capacity to laugh at himself. Result: you both laugh and feel good.)

Was your intention to:

Demean/belittle/be superior to him?

Or to be his equal?

Sarcasm takes the high road of superiority. I doubt you were being superior; I imagine you were sharing the joke: not using the joke against him.

What would you have felt if he’d said, in response:

(angrily) “Well, I was only asking!” or (self-righteous, feigning hurt)  “Oh you think this is funny do you?” or (nastily, sarcastically) “Quite the comedian aren’t you?”

?

Pants.

Edit. “Quite the comedian aren’t you?” that's an example of where it feels bad, even typing it felt bad. It was an example though, not meant to jump off the screen. I've just spent a couple of minutes obsessing about whether you might read that off the screen and think - a barbed attack! No. The point is, if he'd have said any of those things, it says everything about him. Imo, you offered a friendly way out of a situation. If he'd had rejected it, more fool him. You took a healthy risk I think, a risk that implied you were dealing with a healthy human being. A healthy human being will join in your joke and share it. An unhealthy one won't. Your intention there is what matters most and your intention, I believe, was helpful. I'll stop obsessing now and trust you know that my intention was also to help.

[Portia]

edited above, clarification considering glass of wine and words off screens

[mum]

Hope, I really apprecite what you wrote about sarcasm. My ex and I broke up ten years ago. I hadn't thought about sarcasm for the longest time, and after reading your post, I realized how far I have come away from him, and that's a good thing.

Let me explain:
My exN used/uses sarcasm all the time. He thinks it's funny. I thought he was funny when I met him. I enjoyed the verbal sparring. My family was appalled, because they were not the least bit amused by him, although my family is historically very humorous and laughing all the time. I guess the difference is that my ex's humor is hurtful.

Probably because I spent years with him, I also developed a rather sarcastic wit, which I thought was oh so smart at the time, but in retrospect, I realize it was just negative and mean spirited. I was even called on it as a teacher in one evaluation. It remains the only thing I was ever chided for. I will never forget it.

Now that we have been divorced for so long, I see how badly it hurts my kids, and others, and make a real point of staying away from it. I think the only instances that it works, is when it is NOT mean spirited, and a joke between familiars, perhaps like in the situation Hops mentioned, between freinds about something else.
And it can work, but always with the potential of backfiring, in the workplace, with someone you know well. Maybe like in the situation H&H described. It turned out ok, I think, especially if the next exchange with the guy does not involve any sarcasm. But it has some pretty volatile potential.

I try to stay away from it. It can really wound kids in the classroom. So even though older students love wittty exchange, it has to be at a higher level than sarcasm or it can really divide people.

[lightofheart]

Hi Hope,

Gosh you got me thinking, reading here. Trying to identify the line between irony and sarcasm, to begin with. Wasn't sure I knew?

Sarcasm ~ A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.
A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule.

[/color]

imho, you've hit it on the head, via Webster and your own take; emotion, intent and tone are the difference. Also, comfort level. Yesterday, for example, I posted ironically to Mud about popcorn. A ridiculous post...but one I only would've addressed to another irony practitioner. Even then I hovered over the 'post' button a minute, wondering if anyone could possibly take that post personally.

Then thought, Nah, it's too goofy to see as anything but goofy. I hope? 

Just hearing sarcasm pass between people gives me the flinches.     But I'm a smiling sucker for irony. Or 

Sarcasm, to my ears, is a form of scorn, either offered to belittle or with insensitivity toward the other person's feelings. I think tone of voice often gives away the difference, which can make written humor trickier to 'get'. Vocally, sarcasm usually has a hard edge.

Has anyone else ever noticed that sarcasm seems to bubble most readily with an audience beyond the victim? Social insecurity?

imho, sarcasm isn't a happy act. When I consider the more sarcastic people I know....I see irritation with life, either in the moment or generally. I think sarcasm is often the soured cream atop a dose of anger. More socially acceptable than yelling, but not much kinder.

Best,
LoH

[Hops]

Has anyone else ever noticed that sarcasm seems to bubble most readily with an audience beyond the victim? Social insecurity?

imho, sarcasm isn't a happy act. When I consider the more sarcastic people I know....I see irritation with life, either in the moment or generally. I think sarcasm is often the soured cream atop a dose of anger. More socially acceptable than yelling, but not much kinder.

Wow. SO well put, LoH.
Thank you very much.
This makes so much sense to me.

Maybe a first cousin of sarcasm is, sometimes, the "in" joke, when it is told by one to another in the presence of someone who has no idea what they're talking about. Ow. Hmmm...playground.

Hops

[pavelle]

This is a great topic for me and has been a large part of this past year for me. I have found myself "less funny" this year. Part of that is my addressing my rather dry, well honed and terribly sarcastic (though duly self-deprecating) wit. I had this weird way of allowing myself to walk in the world by being dry and sarcastic (to protect myself) but belittle myself with self attack of scathing self-deprecation that gave me "license". I was rather unconcious of this whole garbage way of garnering attention. I had done it all my life. I didn't really know how to do otherwise. Then I just couldn't bear my life anymore, just I felt the sickness of living with an out of control N husband and constant low self esteem and his nonsense and criticisms and I was harkened back to the core FOO that this whole way of being made me feel. I stopped being "funny" nothing was funny and I felt spiritually bankrupt and illl about unkindness, I just wanted something softer in myself to stay alive again, like I was dying. Well when you are known as someone with "spine" who can "dish it out" and "take it" its tough to change your presentation in the world. I became odd to many, I still am. I don't think I'm funny anymore I'm sure many think my troubles and marriage split are the cause. Really, that is not the case. I just decided to take a look at myself, at how I impact the world with this better than / less than spiritually broken lens. I'm tired of it, just have to learn a new vision. It's tough though...people still take the piss out of me and expect me to be strong and have a nice dry quip back..I now have to sometimes ask them to stop..humbling this change stuff.
Pavelle

[pennyplant]

Maybe a first cousin of sarcasm is, sometimes, the "in" joke, when it is told by one to another in the presence of someone who has no idea what they're talking about. Ow. Hmmm...playground.

In-jokes always make me feel lonely.  And since I'm often the newest employee or the new kid in town, it seems like it's all in-jokes at times.  It takes awhile to build a history with a group, which is what in-jokes are really all about.

PP

[penelope]

when I was in highschool, which is perhaps one of the most sarcastic times of our lives, a good and sweet friend of mine (she happened to graduate our valedictorian eventually too), wrote a paper and read it to the class.  It was on the topic of sarcasm and how terribly destructive it really was.  This came from a person who never used sarcasm to my knowledge, and it certainly could have been taken the wrong way by a lot of us.  We could have felt shamed from hearing her assessment.  Except I personally didn't.  I remember listening to her very well thought out expose and something clicked - something registered - in me.  From that point on, I tried hard not to be sarcastic as it was a legacy I'd inherited from my N parents.  It was very difficult, but I did see and I did understand how destructive it really can be.  These days I stay clear of sarcastic people.  I don't know why, but they disturb me.  Maybe it's just that their dark humor reminds me of my Ns.  Maybe being a pessimist myself, I need optimists, not more pessimism.  Perhaps I'm deathly afraid of going back to the place I came from, and I really don't want to go back in that dark hole of sarcastic witty gloom, where everything is about one upping another.

pb