Author Topic: Double standards  (Read 9700 times)

Sela

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Re: Double standards
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2006, 11:24:42 AM »
Hope,

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Sometimes love speaks hard truths.

The beauty of the written word is that one can always go back and find the actual reference, unless, ofcourse, it gets deleted.  I took this to mean something akin to hard love.   I can rephrase if you like and insert this exact quote of yours, if that would work better for you.  Makes no diff to me.

All in the name of sometimes love speaks hard truths!

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I now believe that it was a mistake for me to continue discussions with you.

I don't doubt it.

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I'm glad we've had a chance to attempt some direct communication


We've had.  Attempt.  We tried.  Past tense.  Implies it's over.  Dismissive.

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it looks like we've reached the end of our ability to communicate

Nope.  It looks like you're dismissing me again.  2nd Salute then!  8)   8)

Look, no hard feelings from me to you.  Good go at trying to resolve conflict.  I'm not into conflict.  I'm more into treating people the way I'd like to be treated.  I don't like it when I see what I've pointed out to you here and if I'm feeling strong enough.....I say so.  That's it.  Take it or leave it.  Learn from it or reject it.  It won't effect me one bit.

So have a nice 8 hours and rest of weekend.  I'm off to do errands!!  It's finally cooled off here!!  Lovely!!  :D  8)

Sela
« Last Edit: July 22, 2006, 11:33:43 AM by Sela »

Sela

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Re: Double standards
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2006, 11:53:36 AM »
by the way,

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Not meant to help you either.

I'm sorry I wrote that.   I apologize.

In the long run, that statement is the opposite of my truth.

Sela

portia guest

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Re: Double standards
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2006, 12:14:13 PM »
Hi

Sela, no worries about talking about me in this context. Seems to me like you’re discussing and I just happen to be part of the topic, or the initial ‘cause’ of a larger effect and as such, I don’t feel it’s ‘me’ being talked about…sorry, can’t explain better right now. I guess this Portia person isn’t really ‘me’ as I am right now…aren’t we all many different people sometimes…I mean, we can stand outside ourselves and look at our actions and even – look at our thoughts and feelings – and see them as from a different vantage point; the ability to self-reflect and see a different view.

Which kind of leads to: when I do read this thread from page 1, I think I better remember that the P, Certain Hope, the P you were talking about is the one who had just posted to Storm. So I’ll try and look at that P as a separate person and see what I think of her behaviour in that one instance, treat it completely apart from anything else, as though that P had not posted before, had simply arrived and posted that one thing. Does that sound reasonable?

Because if what you’ve said is based on my past posts (I still haven’t read all this thread), then I’ll need to consider my behaviour in the posts you’re considering in your opinions. I don’t know all your ‘experiences’ of me that are coming together in your mind to make up the version that is in your head. Hope that’s not too obscure a way of putting it.

Anyway, I read what you said:

Portia, I don't know what you think. I don't know whether you see what I've said here as being "mean". I'd like to know. If you are interested in trying to come to some further understanding of what we might both be able to learn from this, I'd like to engage in that. I'm not trying to tell you that you need to learn anything, but I know that I do! I won't be able to respond further till this evening though. Will be away from the computer for the next 8 hours or so. Thanks.

Thank you Certain Hope. The fact that you say you’d like to know what I think is hugely encouraging to me (some might say ‘that’s my opinion, take it or leave it and I don’t care what you think’…and they’d actually mean it, deep in their psyches they want you to just leave them alone….fear I guess…ah…that’s my stepdad again, very much a ‘my way or the highway’ kind of guy and I guess, afraid of me..hmm).

It’s possible that there’s something for me to learn from your words and I like learning. Have to get myself in the right frame of mind though to see constructive criticism and respond to it appropriately. Can’t see the wood for the trees sometimes. Time distance helps and letting the emotion subside so I guess I might be back here tomorrow or Monday. Hope that’s okay. I’ll probably read and consider and re-read. Sort of take it on the chin first, then evaluate my responses, then read from your point of view (seeing that P person as some wayward idiot I can criticise for myself) then think about how to communicate whatever it is I think by then with you. Did I read you were dizzy somewhere? And that you’d reached a limit for the time? I often feel like that: my brain fills up and I have to take time to process all the possibly conflicting thoughts and feelings. Holding two conflicting ideas in my head at the same time – that reminded me of ‘double-think’ in 1984 (which I’ve never read). But apparently the ability to do that – see both sides I guess – is one humans can develop and improve on, which is an optimistic idea I like.

Okay I’m rambling, I better go. And here 20 miles north of London, it’s rained at last and the temperature has plummeted :D. Thank goodness!


Hopalong

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Re: Double standards
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2006, 01:08:05 PM »
Actually, P, you are one of the bravest and most gracious people I know.
You have a deep courtesy, I feel.

What generosity of spirit there must be in your to look past incendiary tone or word choice and be so thoughtful as you are, to invite more dialogue, to be willing, as you seem so often to be willing, to keep doing dialogue even when it's difficult, to get at more truth.

I admire you. Your thinking is so respectful of realities.
Even when you get mad,to me there's something clean and honest in the way you express it. You don't "spew" or go toxic. You don't name-call, you just say WOOF! It's clear, then it's over.

(I knew an Irish Wolfhound when I had a job painting fences out in the country years ago. He was a very funny dog the size of a pony. He caught on that most people were taken aback by his size and deep roaring bark--though in fact, he was gentle as a lamb. But new people would throw up their arms and back off going AAACKK! when he would go lumbering up to say hello.

So...Paddy (I didn't name him!) would hide in the boxwoods at the end of the long drive when he saw a car coming down the road, instead of standing out in the yard barking like most dogs would. He would lie low until the VERY last minute, when the poor person had left their car, shut the door, and was already past the halfway point up the path to the front door...and THEN Paddy would suddenly fling himself through the bushes and put his face in their face and bark (reminded me of the sound of a very large engine coming to life) wooowoofroarroar and the poor person would just about keel over.

It was terrible behavior, but it was so funny that we (the farm owner's family & summer help) would just about die laughing watching Paddy set them up. It still makes me laugh 30 years later. The owner was just devastated when Paddy died.)

Portia, ummm. I don't think I'm comparing you to an Irish wolfhound, but I'm not entirely sure!  :D

I've gotta go, check in tomorrow night.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Stormchild

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Re: Double standards
« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2006, 03:33:16 PM »
Hope, you're speaking truth. Don't let a verbal battering turn you away from it. Look at the pattern here. Not just on this thread and not just with you, but at the overall pattern. You're getting the same thing I got on a previous pair of threads - and you're getting it for the same reasons: you've had the nerve to talk about something imperfect in the dynamics here, because you are trying to grow and change and in order to do that you must first become aware and understand.

Go back and check out the empathy and patience threads; you could cut and paste responses right in here from the responses to me on those threads. The same people, the same sniping and bullying, the same apparent desire to have a fight rather than think nondefensively about the topic. Over and over, world without end. It's like a machine, a reflex, and when you see it that way, it's incredibly sad. When there's neither growth nor change in someone's responses, they're probably not interested in growing or changing. Repeat after me: When there's neither growth nor change in someone's responses, they're probably not interested in growing or changing.

So consider the return on your investment. As long as you yourself get value - further clarity, insight, perspective, practice standing up for yourself, practice speaking civilly to people who are intentionally bullying and provoking you - from continuing to articulate what you believe or perceive here, it's still worth doing. And remember the 'cloud of witnesses' - the lurkers who never post, but benefit hugely from those who do. Every step forward that you take could be an 'aha' experience for a hundred souls keeping you silent company in cyberspace. You'll never know that here, but we don't stop here. You'll know it there.

Once you reach the point of diminishing returns, you may do better to invest your effort more selectively, focusing on people who can be reached by it. That's what Plucky meant with her quote about the pearls, I think. And I suspect it's what He meant by it in the first place.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2006, 03:57:43 PM by Stormchild »
The only way out is through, and the only way to win is not to play.

"... truth is all I can stand to live with." -- Moonlight52

http://galewarnings.blogspot.com

http://strangemercy.blogspot.com

http://potemkinsoffice.blogspot.com

penelope

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Re: Double standards
« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2006, 04:49:06 PM »
hiya -

Storm and Hope - I was wondering as I was drinking my coffee and reading all these thread, I felt no desire to respond, until now, and that's cause I wanted to ask Hope a question:
Does anything here remind you of a past experience, like maybe you were left out by siblings or friends at school on some occasion?  In other words, what's triggering the strong emotions?

And then I thought of one for you too Storm:
Hoping for change is incredibly powerful isn't it?  It's the force that keeps driving us to respond, even when we don't want to.

I was wondering kind of quietly why I had no desire to respond (until now).  none.  In that past I'd feel like jumping to someone's defense, or stating my experience (I guess I did a little, back on the original thread), or feeling Something, anything. 

I think it's progress for me but I'm not sure.  gee, I hope it's not detaching (unless of course that would be a good thing in this case?). 

Anyway, if anyone who hasn't responded or who has has some thoughts on this, I'd be glad to hear them.  Was anyone else feeling a similar way?  Maybe moonlight was, sometimes I can just sense in your posts moon - you seem calm, or unaffected, or serene or patient or something... maybe tired?

take care all,

pb

Stormchild

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Re: Double standards
« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2006, 04:51:50 PM »
nothing wrong with detaching from a toxic process once you see it as toxic, pb.

congrats, and I honestly mean it! and yes, the hope for change is what keeps most of us stuck to Ns, or other abusers.
The only way out is through, and the only way to win is not to play.

"... truth is all I can stand to live with." -- Moonlight52

http://galewarnings.blogspot.com

http://strangemercy.blogspot.com

http://potemkinsoffice.blogspot.com

Certain Hope

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Re: Double standards
« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2006, 07:54:37 PM »
Hi Storm,

At the moment, I'm feeling a bit overinvested, and yet hopeful. Thanks for reminding me about the cloud of witnesses  :) 
Truly, the thought that someone besides me could learn and progress through this struggle is quite an encouragement. This level of exposure is extremely difficult for me to maintain... kinda like standing naked in the midst of Times Square. Might not be so bad if I weren't aware... but I am.
Stormy, I want you to know that I have seen the pattern... the defensiveness, the sniping, and the word-twisting. The pattern is what intimidated me so. Past tense. This is a new season.
And I thank you for sharing your thoughts with me, Stormy. I admire your tenacity, your strength and courage, your sense of the truth.  I hope you'll understand why I don't think I should go back to old threads to copy and paste. That new season thing and all. New wine into old wineskins? I dunno... long day.. running low on descriptive terms. Waiting for coffee to refresh  :)   Oh, I agree with you also re: detaching from toxic processes. I never sought or anticipated a bunch of folks coming onto this thread to choose sides... not at all. I crawled out on this limb alone, with no expectations that anyone else should join me on this little pilgrimage. 

TT ~ I'm  sorry about your back! Even if it's just a few words, I always look forward to reading you.

Pb ~ I'll have to give your questions further thought. I haven't really tried to analyze the emotional aspect of this yet, other than the emotion of fear. What I felt compelled to address was my own fear of conflict, not the emotions which contributed to that conflict. Perhaps I've taken a backwards approach, but that's how it's come about.

More later.

Hope

Stormchild

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Re: Double standards
« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2006, 08:14:17 PM »
Hello Hope

Not to worry, I didn't mean **you** should cut and paste from old stuff.

I meant - and wasn't clear enough - that some of the patterns **I've** had to deal with here are now recognizable, to me, as very repetitive, so much so that instead of people writing new posts to me today, they could go back and copy their old posts from a month ago and they'd be almost identical in tone and intent, even though some details are different.

And I meant that you seemed to be getting similar patterns here.

That cycling pattern thing is what I'm fighting to break free of. And most of the fight is within me. Learning to truly let go, give up, move on. Yes, I had this in my FOO. Big time. Up to my neck in it. Because I couldn't bring myself to give up on family members, but eventually I had to do it.

Your own internal battle is different, I know, but it may include the cycle-breaking. I wish you absolute and total victory. Does it help any if I say I think you are very, very brave?

Hugs

PS the cloud of witnesses is something I've had to make my peace with several times. They see us warts and all. Good for the humility, if nothing else.
The only way out is through, and the only way to win is not to play.

"... truth is all I can stand to live with." -- Moonlight52

http://galewarnings.blogspot.com

http://strangemercy.blogspot.com

http://potemkinsoffice.blogspot.com

penelope

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Re: Double standards
« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2006, 08:15:04 PM »
OK.  I was just wondering aloud that's all.

Certain Hope

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Re: Double standards
« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2006, 08:28:40 PM »
Thanks, Pb ... Wondering is a good thing, I think. And I know the rest of the baggage re: emotions will come to me in time, just for now... every time I read here, I see something else, like interior pieces of the puzzle, but I don't have the outer frame completed yet. Something else, too... always in the back of my mind I have this threat alarm going off. Warning, warning... if you word something incorrectly it'll get picked apart like roadkill by turkey vultures. Sorry about the imagery, but that's exactly how it feels to know for a fact that anything you put into print can be ripped out of context and warped. I know where my heart is in all of this though. I don't want to bring harm to anyone. I am not cruel, or vindictive, sarcastic, or phony. I simply want to stop being afraid and in order to accomplish that, I have to stick with the truth, regardless of the risk.

Stormy, I get it... oops. I guess when tired, I think more literally. Sorry about that... I see now. And I know what you mean about the cycle. Sometimes it takes a swerve and a crash to be able to forge a new path. Thanks for the hugs, too. Most welcome, indeed!! ((((((Stormy)))))) The truth will make us free.

Hope

Stormchild

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Re: Double standards
« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2006, 08:36:12 PM »
Hope, have you read Pilgrim's Progress? I'm going to dig out my copy and re-read it tonight. Thanks, thanks for reminding me of it. By talking about new paths...

2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
The only way out is through, and the only way to win is not to play.

"... truth is all I can stand to live with." -- Moonlight52

http://galewarnings.blogspot.com

http://strangemercy.blogspot.com

http://potemkinsoffice.blogspot.com

reallyME

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Re: Double standards
« Reply #42 on: July 22, 2006, 08:40:25 PM »
This really touched my heart and brought tears to me:

Quote
note: Yes I have history with others here. Some of us have been here for years so we have shared a lot. You can see when we joined from our profiles I think. Imagine if you were here talking to me in two years' time! We'd probably know each other better and some things we could reduce to shorthand; which might confuse others. Time does play a part in how people react to each other. You get to know someone better - even in cyberspace - over time i think.

It doesn't get much more beautiful than that in an exchange between two human beings!  I'm proud of you all, for stating your differing views and not taking the "flight" tactic from communication!  I see growth in us ALL!  Bravo and Praise the Lord!

Love you all,

Laura- ReallyME

Certain Hope

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Re: Double standards
« Reply #43 on: July 22, 2006, 08:46:01 PM »
Stormy, Not since fourth grade.  It's definitely past time for a review!  


 1John 4:18    There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment,
                                   and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

Hope


moonlight52

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Re: Double standards
« Reply #44 on: July 22, 2006, 08:56:41 PM »
Hi pb and all ,

What I feel right now is I am tired and hold a great deal of love in my heart for all of us.
I have found if I look inward for answers with love and not outward with blame etc that always gets me to a better place.

Of course you have to protect yourself but once that is done and you understand labeling others can get :( into a cycle or pattern that does not help.
I am tired I have a loved one not feeling well right now and I AM SAD. :(

Love to All,
MoonLight