Low Blows - Calling People N here

[penelope]

reallyme & jac,

Is this the thing we most fear, becoming or acting like our Ns?

Could be, for me anyway.  Which is why, if you really want to get my goat, to elevate my blood pressure, get my feathers all ruffled... call me an N on this board or say Well, isn't that something we've all heard from our Ns? in response to something I've stated.  I've finally identified the feelings I was having, and yes, I think I was annoyed.

Thing is this:  N's use the same words and language we do.  In fact, you can't tell from a person's words whether they're N or not.  The only test (and it can only be done by a qualified professional), for NPD has to do with empathy.  Whether the person truly has the ability and capacity to empathize is the only thing that distinguishes whether they're N or not.  So just because I say "Yeppers" or "No need to make a grand production out of it" or any other term that reminds you of Your N, does not mean I'm a N (hey, I don't have telepathy, how would I know this about you?  Also, maybe it's just coincidental?).  Also, were I an N, why would I be wasting all this time self-examining?  Ns don't do that.

For these reasons above, and knowing all this about me, if you choose to use any of the following expressions in response to things I've posted, know that I'll BE HURT, cause I'm going to assume you meant something about ME:

you sound like my N
Well, isn't that what our N's used to say?
I am aware that Certain People on this board are N because their parents are N..but won't mention any names (you post this right after I say something you disagree with)


When you say these things it hurts me.  Know that you've just dug that knife a little deeper.  Am I trying to guilt you by posting this?  maybe.  Am I also trying for better understanding and to set a boundary with you?  yes, I think so.

Now, if you do it to me, you'll know how I'll likely feel about it.  So you've been warned.  I cannot control your behavior, but I can say what I do and don't prefer.  So if it happens again, know I'm going to ask:  why did you do that?

Now, if you'd like to discuss things that I do to you that hurt you, such as ignore your posts, please do so in a mature manner if you feel like it.  I'm open to your feedback.

Thanks to all others for all your understanding and support.

bean

[Hopalong]

bump

[Certain Hope]

Pb, Ask and ye shall receive.....   (Hope you don't mind my rather peculiar sense of humor )

I was just gonna say that I think it's a valid fear... or maybe awareness is a better word... not wanting to become like our "N's", I mean. Long before I had any idea what "N" meant, I knew that I did not want to become like my mother, or my brother, or... well anyhow, that's certainly not a new development.

Pb, I haven't seen anyone, including RM or Jac, label you as N either directly or indirectly. It's entirely possible that I've missed something, but I truly haven't seen any such references.

I think that we are all likely to recognize some N behaviors in everyone we meet. For one thing, we're all sensitized to it. For another, every personality has some degree of "healthy" narcissism as one of its components (hopefully not THE overriding component). I really don't think it's healthy, tho, to be seeing N behind every bush and shrub. That's an out of balance view, imo. Pathological narcissism is not something to be diagnosed lightly, for sure.

That said, I also think that this is a wonderful, healthy thing you've done here, letting your voice be heard in such a direct way on this thread, directed specifically toward those individuals from whom you've received some signals, whether those signals were perceived correctly or not. I see this as an invitation to further exploration and that's a good thing. I'm wondering though.... what if they don't respond? Will you be ok with that? They do have the choice, right? If someone feels it would be a violation of his own boundaries to respond to a direct question, does he have the option to stand mute?

And finally, the last thought I had when I read this was.... I just finished stating someplace else on the board that I would be making it a practice of staying on my own side of the double-line, not inserting myself into others' (potential) conflicts. I'm rethinking that now in light of all this... if I read someone label another member on this board of being N, I'd really have to take a closer look at whether or not I should respond if to say nothing else than... that is not your call to make.

Pb, thank you for all of the opportunities to take a closer look at things that oiften just slide by unobserved. Awareness is a big part of the battle for me, I think.

With love,
Hope

P.S. on edit ~  lol Hops     I need to type faster!

[penelope]

hi hope -

OK, on the off chance that I may be correct in thinking reallyme has been implying I'm N for awhile here...

and on the off chance I may be correct in thinking jac said something I said sounded like what her N's have said to her...

let's let these two reply.

[penelope]

Here's what was said, in case you forgot, jac:

Penelope: "No need to make a grand production of it.  I think you're taking things a bit too seriously that's all."

Jac: *smile* - now how many of us have been told this by the Ns (or abusers)  in our lives? 

[reallyME]

Well Bean, since you said "let's let these two reply" and since I'm having a rather cruddy moment at this time...I think I will oblige you.

The only N'istic behavior I noticed was wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy back when, when I addressed something with you, and you confronted me and I STOPPED WRITING.  Then, in the midst of my SILENCE, you came on and told everyone I was attacking you (which never happened).  That was where I saw that sort of behavior, and that was eons ago, but as of late, I can see that your therapy has really helped you a lot.  I pray for Jodi to one day be able to get some help, because you are living proof that it can be very successful in teaching people to identify issues and learn to set boundaries.

I commend you for the very noticeable progress I've seen you making

Blessya

Laura

[penelope]

And reallyme...gosh, there's just so many to pick from, but here's one:

can't read anything posted in bold??? oh brother...this reminds me of the people who can't handle red typing on another forum I was on.  I wonder where to draw the line between walking on eggshells and seeing things as a bit petty or at least "iffy"  When DOES someone finally get past the childhood issues and begin to see through adult eyes?  I'm about ready to just head on out of here because I see very little change or growth and that is what I'm all about when it comes to these message boards for the abused.  I have nothing more to offer, when I see this sort of thing, other than to roll my eyes.  NOw, that probably makes me sound uncaring and narcissistic...so, maybe when it comes to this stuff, I am a bit?  I dunno, I just see some things as ridiculous and things that should have been dealt with long ago, especially if someone has been in therapy.

MY opinion.

~RM

What exactly did you mean by this whole statement reallyme, and what was your purpose in posting it to me?  Please, I'd really like to know, just to make sure I'm not misinterpreting anything here.

pb

[penelope]

gee thanks, I guess.

I mean in between the really crappy things you manage to say nice things once in awhile reallyme.  Does this mean I should trust you from here on out?  What would you do if you were me?

Should I listen to the many who've PM'd me - and said "I do not engage reallyme, sorry about what's happening to you bean"  or... do I, like Hope and hops, and Portia and others, turn that blind eye of denial?

Or, do I listen to you with my heart and gut, which says:  I don't like this behavior reallyme - it hurts.  I'm sorry you're hurting, but taking it out on me is cruel.  You are wounding me with your words, over and over.  Please stop.

pb

[penelope]

reallyme,

Here's another lovely slam by you to me:

Penelope Bean, you are on Effexor?  well, I'm not sure when you got on it, but I have seen a definite change in you for a while now, so I am proud of you for taking that step with the meds.  They sure do help some people and give you a chance to experience thinking one or two thoughts at a time too, without being stuck in "rehash" mode even.  Some very close friends of mine are on antidepressant meds with GREAT results!  There is nothing to be ashamed of in taking meds...the brain is a complicated thing that often benefits from adjustment of its chemicals.  Blessya, Penelope

now, if you'd been paying attention, I've been on Effexor XR (75 mg) for the past two years.  I've only been posting here for less than a year.  So, I've been on meds all along.  What's the point of saying the above?  Please do tell.  We can have a whole thread about why reallyme feels the need to bash bean, just so you can get it thoroughly out of your system, K?

No, I'm not implying I'm the only one, I've seen you do it to many others, too.  But I am saying I don't like what you're doing to me.  I recognize it as a subtle form of abuse and I don't like it!

pb

[penelope]

maybe this has to do with your deep seated feelings of inadequacies, reallyme, I don't know.    I'm searching for a reason why you'd post the above, but I can't come up with any positive ones.  Can you?  If so, please share.


Here's what I think:  I think these sort of backhanded comments by you to me can only be taken one way. 

Is there another way I should have interpreted this?  Cause I interpreted it to mean:  reallyme, you didn't approve of my behavior before, and now you see a definite change in me of which you do approve.  This is subtly abusive as it implies you get to judge my behavior and tell me whether it's right or wrong.  You don't.  That's my job, not yours.  I don't like this.  I'd prefer it if you didn't comment to me in this manner.  I don't know if you're capable of this, though, as even when asked by Dr G to do so, you couldn't stop (for long).

That's my side of the story.  So do you want to clear it up or not?  It's up to you.  If you don't want to clear this up, I'll accept that too, but know that everytime you post something to or about me that I feel is inappropriate, I'm going to reply with my patented response.

This isn't true communication, which is why it's bothering me.  I wan't to communicate, but I have to set boundaries here.  Sometimes the only appropriate boundary is a wall.

Everyone else-  Thanks for listening to my feelings in this.

pb

[penelope]

p.s. I'm sorry you're feeling crappy, would you care to talk about it here?

[penelope]

Now this is funny cause I was referring to jack (Tough Love = guys, hello?)  and the two people who thought I was speaking of them were: reallyme and jac.  So, are you two obsessed with what I'm posting?  Maybe.

*sigh*

I would like you and reallyme to get off my butt.  Find something else to do, K?  Not your job to take care of me or my behavior, it's mine.

go away jac - find someone else to pester I'm in a great mood and don't feel like discussing anything with you.  Yesterday, I had a migraine and asked you to tone down your post (the green and red bold Hurt), I see you didn't.  I won't comment further what I think about your behavior, as it's not my place to do so.  Live and let live jac.

Penelope, so nice of you to acknowledge my existence after sooooooooo long.  As usual I see you are thoughtfully projecting onto me or is it blameshifting, because I said I felt color-changes are petty in my viewpoint, and I will stand on that.  There does come a time when we decide to stop going with the familiar in our life, and to get past things and move ahead. I know in therapy that is what you are doing and I commend you and don't hold anything against you for your comments toward me.  I am a strong person who basically loves people in general, to the extent that I even talk to the 2 N's in my life now.  You are allowed to own your stuff as I own mine.

Blessya

~Laura- ReallyME

What the hel-l does this mean?  It's a whole lot of babbling - pointless, if you ask me.  Please, enlighten me reallyme.  What are you trying to say?  What's the point?

[Certain Hope]

Hi Pb,

  No blind eye of denial here. I've seen the examples you cite here, just didn't think of them as "calling people N".

  I respect your choice to confront directly when peoples' remarks  have disturbed you. They'd disturb me too, if they were directed at me, but I think each individual has to draw her own line in the sand which, when crossed, will bring about a response.

  Personally, when I observe a pattern of a person who's generally insulting and thoughtless in her remarks to numerous board members seemingly at whim and at random, without any thought of the effect of her words on others  and without evidencing any willingness to understand how she could change her style, I think to myself... why would anything I could say be any different than what 20 other people have already said? Sometimes I'll give it a try anyway (which I have, in fact, in the case of RM, although that didn't relate to her comments to you), but what else can I do?

   When I saw the flip remark re: postings in bold and I did speak up, because I have personal experience with difficulty with red fonts. My stomach also turned when I saw the "effexor" comment, because I thought, my goodness, how patronizing does that sound? But man, how many things can 1 person react/respond to at one time?

   Pb, since I've been here, I've only done the personal message thing on a couple of occasions. I don't like the idea of talking about someone behind her back. That's just my personal view, nothing against those who do use it. I think those people who did contact you in that way were only trying to show their support and say hey, don't worry about it. Wouldn't have done much good for me to do the same, would it? It'd still be bothering you, because there's something very dissatisfying about leaving issues unaddressed when they're really eating at you. So I'm glad you're doing this and I wish you the best in finding resolution and setting healthy boundaries. If there's any way I can help, I hope you'll let me know.

With love,
Hope

[Hopalong]

I think sometimes what appears to thoughtlessness could be something wired in that it's hard to perceive without ftf contact. That's what I've come to believe, that in some folks dismissiveness or what appears to be goading or obliviousness might actually be an actual limitation in grasping nuance that is something an individual may not be able to help. So an attempt to reach out and communicate something friendly actually comes across a little askew, perhaps condescending or grating, when the person does not think they're emitting that at all or isn't doing it intentionally. Thus there's much bewilderment at why often comments are met with frustration or some other negative response.
With time and observing I have come to think it is not intentional, which makes it easier to let it roll by.

I don't know if this line of thought applies and I know I'm being opaque but hope it's understood.

Hops

[penelope]

hops - with all due respect, I disagree.  This does not appear to be thoughtlessness, it appears to be more than that.  I base this on the way it makes me feel to read her comments to me.

I think that reallyme is really abusive.  I've told her how it feels to treat me the way she has, if she responds thoughtfully, then I'll know her intentions are good.  But so far, I have not seen how one can take the above as anything but slams. 

I didn't read them at the time they were posted, btw, but I did want to come back to them as I do believe people can change and so I occasionally do go back and check - and in this case, the comments Turned my Stomach.

That's how it felt Hops.  I felt as if I'd been punched in the stomach, literally, by that Effexor comment.  What other way is there to interpret that hops?  Can you think of any positive thing that might have meant?  Reallyme, what were you thinking/feeling about me when you wrote that?  I'm curious. 

Now that my stomach is feeling better, I'd like to know.  I know I'm opening myself up for more pain here, but I'd also like to see the end of this nonsense, if that is possible.

pb

Hope: reallyme was asked to delete a post where she said I was an N once (by Dr G).  So that's why I may have this hyperawareness to her nuances.  But you're right, perhaps they're not implying I'm N.  But nonetheless, they're not exactly flattering either.  And thank you for you offer of help.  Simply posting to my thread in the manner that you did shows you care.  I do appreciate that.