What's Happened to the Community?

[reallyME]

Evidence is increasing that retraumatising people is bad for their mental health

My Pastor talked about this today too, about how rehashing the past is hindering people from moving forward.  According to the way my pastor believes though, we shouldn't even have this message board, so I can' t totally embrace his view, as I would have to tell you all goodbye.

~Laura

[penelope]

write,

Thanks for expounding, cause that's what I really wanted you to do!  Typically, your posts are very thoughtful and wise, and I don't know if you could tell from my reply but I was a bit dissappointed in your first post.  The others made up for it though. 

All,
I am still just struggling, Struggling - I really am - with what feels like "You should know better"  instructions.  What if I don't?  What if I'm just now learning to use my voice and I'm going to make mistakes, and screw up and say things that aren't well thought-out and that are rude and tactless, but I really Really did think it out before I said it?  And I couldn't see anything wrong with what I was about to say, cause That's Where I'm at?  And I accept that - I accept me, mistakes and all. 

Reply anyone, only if you want to.  I'm getting a bit exasperated defending myself so I guess I'll stop and go back to my regularly scheduled program of posting.

And I also realize it could be a mistake in my perception that all these posts are directed at me, they're just vents or attempts to describe personal Lessons Learned - for the sake of helping others - themselves (which part of me knows they are, but part of me thinks - these feel like digs).  By dig I mean the: I already got it so you should too message.

I still fall back to what if what is missing is Patience?  Plain and simple.  Patience by those who "know better" with those of us who don't (yet).   

pb

[penelope]

I had another thought and that was this:

If I am not ready and/or willing to change, it would be wise of me to sit on my fingers rather than respond in any conflict I'm feeling here.  Cause I've noticed a theme in many of the posts that have been given.  People seem to be saying this:

Don't engage ME in conflict, cause I'm not going there (which I translate as:  I'm not ready to change/I don't have the energy right now/I'm OK where I'm at, no changing gonna happen here with me, uh-uh, not today).

I respect and understand this, I do.  If one isn't willing to change, they tend not to engage in conflict.  And that's fine.  Some of us are ready and willing, however.  Some of us need to change.  We recognize its a matter of life or death, so we're engaging in healthy conflicts.  Some of them might turn out to be unhealthy, but not all conflict is bad.  Conflict is a necessary part of life, as is change.  Especially for those impacted by Ns - I believe.

pb

[Plucky]

Hi Penelope and everyone,

And I also realize it could be a mistake in my perception that all these posts are directed at me, they're just vents or attempts to describe personal Lessons Learned - for the sake of helping others - themselves (which part of me knows they are, but part of me thinks - these feel like digs).  By dig I mean the: I already got it so you should too message.

I think that what you wrote above is a more accurate interpretation.  I think you got it right and you are correct to move away from the more negative interpretation which wil only cause you grief.  Even if someone would be hurtful enough to take the approach that you ought to know better, there isn't any good in it for you to even pay attention to that message. 

When I write things such as, "my approach is so and so",  I am trying to help by mentioning that I have had the same issue, and giving an example of what works for me.  I use "I" messages because we are told everywhere that I messages are less offensive.  And I know that I do not know that much about any of you guys, but I know lots about me, so I am on relatively safe ground telling what I do rather than saying what you should do or telling what you are doing.

I respect and understand this, I do.  If one isn't willing to change, they tend not to engage in conflict.  And that's fine.  Some of us are ready and willing, however.  Some of us need to change.

Another way to interpret this would be that not everyone is at the same place at the same time.   For you, conflict may lead to healthy change right now.  For others, it could be unhealthy and even harmful.  I think it is important to respect that we don't know about everyone's state of mind at this time, and they have to make the healthy choice for them.    I know personally I cannot make healthy choices for everyone.  I have my hands full attempting to make them for myself.

I do think that certain words or ways of speaking are harsh or raw enough to be hurtful to a majority of people, and that we have the responsibility in order to maintain a community, to avoid those types of communication, even if venting seems to help us personally right then.  That is just my opinion.  I value the community and am willing to make an extra effort to keep it going.  Just because the board is up doesn't mean it is functioning as a supportive community.

I also think that everyone on the board has made mistakes.  I know I have, over and over.  The key was to come up here and admit it.  People are enormously forgiving if you admit your error and give them a chance to see that your intention was not bad.  That is healing for all.

Plucky

[penelope]

that was a very kind and thoughtful response plucky.  thanks

[Plucky]

Thanks for saying that Penelope.  Now I feel all fluffy and warm inside!
Plucky

[Brigid]

Pb,

And I also realize it could be a mistake in my perception that all these posts are directed at me, they're just vents or attempts to describe personal Lessons Learned - for the sake of helping others -

There is much more to respond to, but this I wanted to address right away.  In no way was this post directed at anyone in particular.  Have you been party to some of the controversy here recently?  Yes, but the same could be said for most of us at one point or another.  It is a learning experience--both directly experiencing it and observing it.  I think watching the resolution--if there is one--is also a wonderful learning experience for the participants and observers.  I don't, however, see much point in trying to reignite the controversy with baiting and sarcasm.  Those types of posts are better left in your head and off your fingers, imo.

But we all make mistakes, say things we regret, take offense where none was intended, and react more negatively toward some people than others.  Because of our established relationships with members of this board--be they positive, negative or neutral--we "hear" things being said to us differently.  We tend to listen to those we respect and care about, and perhaps blow off or flare up at those we have more negative feelings about.  I'm as guilty of this as the next person and of course, this is human nature, and affects all aspects of our lives--not just what happens on this board.

Stormy,
Thank you for researching the actual numbers of new people who are joining this board.  It is interesting to see that so many have joined, but I still have to wonder why we have not heard from many of them.  It seemed to me that back when you and I were new here, that there were new posters every week and they did tend to hang around for awhile.  A few of us diehards are still here, but many have left. 

I, personally, have missed the new posters with their stories and seeking help to understand and recover.  I thought that was the purpose of this board and it seems we are moving away from that.  I agree that that is the nature of group dynamics, but if the mission here is to help victims of narcissism, without a facilitator to keep us on track, we are shifting the focus based on the needs of a few more vocal members than perhaps the needs of greater numbers who are not as willing, for whatever reason, to make their needs and desires known.

But I am not the facilitator, nor do I have any control whatsoever over what takes place here.  These are my observations as someone who has been here for awhile, who is a bit older than most here, and who is mostly recovered from the injuries of my abusers.  I'm not sure even why I still come here, but I feel compelled on a regular basis and even to post once in awhile.  There are people here that I care about and who care about me.  That is reason enough for now to hang around.

I will address more later.

Brigid

Added on edit--just had to add that spending the afternoon holding hands with my b/f while watching Orlando and Johnny on the big screen can really make a rainy day quite bright.   

[movinon]

Hi Penelope

If one isn't willing to change, they tend not to engage in conflict.  

I can see where you're coming from in this.  There IS the other side of the coin in that I have learned how to take care of myself - If I judge that there is an unhealthy person that always has to get the last word and do whatever they please at my expense, part of taking care of myself is limiting or stopping engagement with that person.

I am a huge advocate for not backing away from conflict, but there is a point when it becomes unhealthy.  You may have heard of the saying, "Never argue with a drunk (or a person who's drunk)."    This is the same concept to me.  At times I CHOOSE not to engage with those unhealthy people who go around in circles chasing their tails.  I get out of the circle.

I wish I could say that I simply DON'T engage, but I am not perfect and get sucked in at times.  I think it's easier for me to get sucked in because some part of me is used to the turmoil created from my FOO and 10 years with an N.

In my circle of women we DO engage in a HEALTHY conflict management model which increases the level of intimacy among members and creates a tighter circle to do deep processing work.


Brigid - I agree that the energy of the board has changed since the time I first got here.  I too, miss the stories of newcomers and have missed hearing your words of wisdom.

Movinon

[Plucky]

Hi Brigid and Movinon and everyone,
I agree that the board seems to have changed since I've been here.  I don't know how much is me, how much is the board, and how much is just natural change.  But I do miss the new stories and the sense of comradeship.

When I first came on the board, I felt like a fish that had just struggled to the edge of the water and couldn't make it any further.  All of you guys in the water yelled out, you can make it!  Don't give up!  I've been there!  And you splashed water on me to help me struggle in.  I feel like it saved my life.

I could post at any hour with my desperation and there was always someone there to give their time, their support, share their own stories, and dare I say love?

For this reason I just don't feel like I can walk away.  I have wanted to often, when I see fighting and hurting and going around in circles.    I also feel that sense of loss of the old ways.

Pema Chodron was on television, and all of you guys that have been going on about her, you are right.   She said so many wonderful things, but one I have been able to use lately is that every person, without exception, has the possibility to...what did she say?  Reach their highest potential?  No, it was more like, reach the highest potential that any human can, forgive me for not remembering the words.

So, as I was in the process of writing off people in what felt like self-preservation, I just couldn't get this thought out of my head.  It is also what I have been taught in church.  Of course, I had conveniently forgotten.

All this to say, I think that with the exact people we have on the board,we can make it again into a supportive place where we feel safe and others feel welcome.   No one needs to leave. No one needs to shut up.  We can do it.

a pollyanna-ish
Plucky

[Stormchild]

So, as I was in the process of writing off people in what felt like self-preservation, I just couldn't get this thought out of my head.  It is also what I have been taught in church.  Of course, I had conveniently forgotten.

All this to say, I think that with the exact people we have on the board,we can make it again into a supportive place where we feel safe and others feel welcome.   No one needs to leave. No one needs to shut up.  We can do it.

a pollyanna-ish
Plucky

Hi Plucky

This isn't pollyanna-ish, it's inspiring and comes from the heart... thank you for saying it. For being here. For coming back / deciding not to go...

[Plucky]

Thanks Stormy,
I was feeling a bit, well embarrassed.  Foolish.  Thanks for the pat.
Plucky

[Stormchild]

[laughing] thank you too Plucky because while I was posting this I kept thinking - who cares what I think, and why would Plucky need or want my approval?



 those old N-installed tapes never quite stop playing, do they.

[penelope]

   sounds good to me too Plucky

[Brigid]

Hi Hope,

I just wanted to address a few of the points and questions you had.

What exactly is the source of the pressure you're feeling, Brigid? Are you feeling pressure because no one is jumping through hoops in an attempt to woo back the few people who said they were taking a brief leave of absence?

I would not term what I am feeling as pressure. I guess more of what I feel is a sense of guardianship for some of the more sensitive souls on this board.  This has certainly been my role more than once in my life--for my mother from my father, for my exnh from his father--and why I found my passion when I became a mother.  I finally had two little people who really needed me to take care of them, allowed me to and appreciated that I did.  No one here has asked me to speak on their behalf, I just naturally fall into that role, I guess.

This is supposed to be a place of healing and growth, and yet I feel,  Brigid, as though you think those of us who are posting are expected to be above and beyond all of this. Well, obviously we're not. Should we be able to simply pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and play nice? I'm trying to play nice!

I'm not sure what the "this" is that you are suppose to be above and beyond, but if you are referring to controversy--no.  No one is above and beyond controversy, least of all me.  But I have learned through many hours of therapy that there are healthier and more productive ways to handle it.  As I said yesterday, we learn through controversy--by directly being enmeshed and by observing.  But, because of the nature of the cyber world, what you say and how you say it takes on a much greater impact that speaking with someone face to face. 

I do not look for opportunities to speak up in my own defense, or for anyone else to speak up in my defense. I will not, however, sit back and tolerate lies being spoken about me. That I will correct to the best of my ability, not to cause anyone else harm. That's where I stand.

Nor should you.  I agree that if someone is misrepresenting you, you have the right defend yourself.  I don't think anything I said originally would dispel that.

But I don't view any of what goes on here as a waste. It's all learning and whether it seems positive or negative to any one individual at a certain moment, all depends on where you are in the spectrum of healing, imo.

I never termed what was going on as a waste.  I do think it became overbearing and redundant at times and there definitely was some unnecessary mud-slinging going on.  I think when it gets to that point, those disagreements are better had in private so as not to re-traumatize the innocent victims who read the posts, imo.

Hope, I don't mind that you weren't mooshy-schooshy.  You were respectful and that is all I can ask for. 

Plucky,

I appreciated what you said and I too, have great hope for the members of this board that this too will pass and we will work together to support one another into the future.

Brigid

[Certain Hope]

Dear Brigid,

Many thanks for responding and clarifying. I'm aware that I wouldn't have been able to even make my initial response to your post here if I didn't respect and admire you. Because I do respect and admire you, and value your opinion of me, I received your initial post on this thread as a personal chastisement and went into defense mode. It seems that I'm the one who was feeling the pressure. I still do. Part of me cries out, "Who decides who are the 'sensitive souls on this board' who are in need of guardians/protectors?" I'm thinking that's a very subjective question and each of us might select different souls as needing protection, depending on ...with whom our shadow most identifies, perhaps? 

I don't know.  Honestly, I have alot of inner resentment and frustration at this moment and so I'm left with a sense of deep dissatisfaction. I do recognize that this these feelings are my own problem to sort through and I do not want to dump them onto anyone. So again, I thank you for explaining your position and I do understand what you've said here, at an intellectual level, anyway.

In my heart, I know that often the people who are most sensitive, most easily wounded, and most desperately in need of understanding are not necessarily those who cover their words in poetry, hearts and flowers.  I'm feeling a disparity here that I can't reconcile without digging deeper, but I'll do that digging within myself and not look to others for satisfaction.

Hope