How to heal NPD

[Matthias43]

Thank you Portia, I appreciate what you said. It is just hard for me, with my narcissistic issues and all, to come online and be bombarded with all these different viewpoints and sources of information - first of all I'm told that everything's hopeless, then I find a site that's trying to heal it, then people are condemning "Ns", then people are reassuring me that I'm young and it's not all over... and during none of this do I have any idea where I really fit into the picture. I'm still 18, and reading some of this stuff makes me believe I have something that's equivalent to a terminal cancer diagnosis. It's scary!

It does bother me though that anyone would label another human being as being completely hopeless or "doomed." That's pretty low in my opinion, and speaks more of the problems of whoever wrote it than of any objective truth. As for the psychoanalytic psychotherapy and that post - yes it overdid it a bit, but I think there was something there. If you ever wanna read something more about the subject, take a look at James Masterson's "The Emerging Self." He has successfully treated people with narcissistic disorders.

Well I g2g now.

Take care,

Matt

[rosencrantz]

Hi Matt - (Matthias? A reader of Redwall, perchance??)

If you're a teenager, you're being introspective.  That's what you do when you're in your teens.  You're trying our various 'personas', you're testing out the water, you're being you (and it's very confusing).

This too will pass!

I have no doubts that narcissism has nothing to do with where you are in life just now.  

One thing you could do which would help you get a better response from the people on this forum is to 'own' the thoughts and feelings which you are trying to express.  You are talking about narcissism or NPD 'in general' and you are receiving confusing and conflicting answers because people are giving your their response to different kinds of narcissism as THEY have experienced it, they are giving you answers from the stage at which they are in the long road to recovery - and none of it's particularly relevant to you.

If you own what you fear and what you want to find out (eg I am 18 and I wonder if I have NPD and if I have, can I get better) then people can respond more accurately.

I wrote this elsewhere and there may be something in it that may help...

I suggest we forget about labels and just try to live an honest life.  Trust more, but learn to be tougher, more resilient, too.  Keep our head up, be proud!  Know our boundaries so they don't get invaded - psychologically, mentally or emotionally.  And be brave enough to face the consequences of being 'accurate', having spent time and energy uncovering and speaking the truth.

With any luck, in a couple of years' time. you'll be so busy having a life that you'll have forgotten all about the whole concept of narcissism.
R

[Anonymous]

I'm now friends with my husbands psychologist.

This is a serious boundary problem and is unethical.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Matthias,

First, I'm not talking about you. I don't think you have NPD. Second, I don't think you've been reading other people's experiences on this board. If you had, you'd realize how incredibly pervasive and destructive a personality disorder (an actual one) is. These are not healable....sorry. It does not mean the person is "doomed." It means they and their families, have to figure out how to deal with it, as they would deal with any problem.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Bunny, what you say is fair enough as a general rule about someone being or becoming friends with their family members psych. But it isn't an absolute. Explanations aren't necessary here, you generally offer very sound advice, but I wish to respond to you Bunny.

I'll not respond to that person who obviously has a serious rage problem. Who will no doubt says, more "lies lies lies", to support this rage, and doesn't even know there is a huge difference between anger and rage. I eventually concluded that rager was  'PUI', Posting Under The Influence.

Bunny, is it possible that even psych's have wives and family, and their wives have family and have friends? What if a member of a particular psych's family has become close friends with someone who has a problem with a spouse with NPD? What if this psyche is willing to have a go? Would it be unethical for that psych to offer assistance? Especially if that psych has some experience in the area. I think it'd be unethical for him to discuss personal details about the  therapy with the me, and inappropriate for me to ask. But not unethical to become friends in the context of the social affiliation and connection. And I don't believe any psych worth their salt would violate their own particular set of ethics by disclosing private matters anway. If this psyche does exist, and is not just a figment of my imagination, and if his wife has become a close friend of mine, and that's not just a figment of my imagination either, then why would it be not okay to become friends with him too. Especially if we do have other areas of interest that via a charity organisation that bought our lives together in the first place. Sometimes my supposed 'imaginary psyche' does inquire and ask me if I'm noticing any positive adjustments or changes with my husband. And that's okay, surely. Part of me feels it's a waste of time and irrelevant responding to your judgement Bunny because our lives and circumstances are all so unique. I consider myself extremely fortunate that fate connected us with these people and bought our familes together. I feel that rote blanket statements often sound okay on the surface but often lack careful thought and consideration. Maybe you too will shout "lies lies lies", although goodness knows why. It just soooo doesn't bother me because it doesn't alter the truth. But I'm interested to know if in the light of this, you still think that it's unethical, cause I sure don't and neither do they. I just consider us fortunate that fate smiled on my family by bringing such caring and giving people into our lives. They're out there, contrary to what we learned from our parents.

Matthias, good luck once again and I admire your grit.

Guest

[seeker]

Hi all,

I just gotta jump in and second Bunny's opinion about boundaries.  Sure, there might be extenuating circumstances as outlined above.  But I am not convinced...sorry!   The case stated above reads as convoluted and defensive and, at times, self-contradictory.  If one agrees that Bunny offers sound advice generally, enough said.  But Guest, you go on to argue your particular exception and then state doing so is a waste of time.  All in the name of turning the general rule upside down to justify your situation.  Which I still don't have down quite clearly.  

I was at a small party where the host's therapist was there.  It seemed indiscreet.  A standard question I ask I don't know is "how do you know the host/ess?"  She seriously stumbled over this question.  I wasn't exactly prying.  Her interesting response was "I'm glued to him".  Someone else volunteered the information later, which made it all the more awkward.  

I have met more than one psychologist that has serious boundary issues themselves and have to be reminded that one doesn't broach sensitive issues casually in passing.  So the fact that your newfound friend doesn't have a problem with it doesn't convince me it's okay.  I'm sure these folks are very nice people.  It's a matter of priorities, professionalism and yes, I would say ethics.  How could the psych maintain any objectivity?

Anyway, how does your husband, the patient, feel about these relationships?  If I had a problem with paranoia (Ns often do, IMHO), I wouldn't be helped by knowing my spouse is having coffee with my shrink.  Conversely, I would also feel uncomfortable talking with my wife's friend who offered to "have a go".  Another option the psychologist/friend has is to refer the friend's husband to a valued and respected colleague. Yes, there are lots of nice people out there and the psychologists can find friends who are not related to their patients...

My two cents, anyway.  Best, Seeker

[Anonymous]

Bunny, what you say is fair enough as a general rule about someone being or becoming friends with their family members psych. But it isn't an absolute.

There is no explanation that a psychiatrist (or any other therapist) can give for this. They aren't supposed to socialize or have friendships with the client's family. It's unethical.

Bunny, is it possible that even psych's have wives and family, and their wives have family and have friends?

Of course they have friends. However their friends can't be the family members of the clients. Those people are excluded for ethical reasons.

What if a member of a particular psych's family has become close friends with someone who has a problem with a spouse with NPD? What if this psyche is willing to have a go? Would it be unethical for that psych to offer assistance?

It depends on whether the psychiatrist knows the person and her spouse socially.

Especially if that psych has some experience in the area. I think it'd be unethical for him to discuss personal details about the  therapy with the me, and inappropriate for me to ask. But not unethical to become friends in the context of the social affiliation and connection..

It is unethical for a psychiatrist to be friends with the spouse of a client. If you aren't the spouse, that is more of a gray area. It doesn't matter whether the psychiatrist would discuss the case or not.

I know you'd like to be an exception and you have reasons why it's "okay" for this friendship. Anyway it's not your problem, it is the psychiatrist's problem for crossing professional and ethical boundaries.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Yeah, thanks bunny for replying. The friendship I have is I suppose primarily with his wife, so maybe I need to discuss this with them. It's a bit tricky, having zero to do with him I mean. His wife and I became friends a few years ago volunteering our time for the same organisation and now have a lot to do with each other. Anyway, I sort of see your point. But no matter, he's not young and I pray that the guy has a lot more years left in him. He's got a good heart.

Anyway thanks

Guest

[Anonymous]

Seeker

I'm uninclined to answer any of your questions. Bunny objected to something in my post and generally, I said generally not always, I find the advice solid. I wanted to test bunny's opinion by exposing and revealing more of our circumstances, because I do mostly respect bunny's input here, particularly the economy of speech. It's very Ockham's Razorish, "It's is vain to do with more what can be done with less." I admire this tremendously in bunny. I didn't and haven't rejected what bunny said. I said maybe I need to talk about it with them all. That is a completely different position to where I was standing before I had this communication with bunny, so I've shifted ground. That's it, what happens now is my business.

After the unsuccessful attempt at denigrating and abusing me by the board-rager, (you know like road-rage) at the top of this page who seemed to not only thoroughly enjoy their rage and being abusive, and called me a liar and an N, I hope you understand that I'm on my guard. I imagine rage is better than sex for this person, and can see her after venting lying back calmly smoking a cigarette. So when I was reading your opening paragraph, which felt to me more like a critical judgement not really connected to the topic which I posted to, and then reading all your closing questions which were I felt peppered with suppositions, and I'll risk being wrong here and say, I sensed a hint of the same coming from you. So it's 'No comment' to your questions. Sorry if I am misreading the tone in your opening paragraph, but I didn't sense any understanding from you at all of what I'm about , so I'm going to go with my gut instinct here and assume that you're looking for a fight. If you're genuine and you've got an N in your life then you'll understand how serious an issue the actual post topic is for my family. Is their healing, help, treatment for NPD? It's not just a sports topic for those with nothing better do or who are so angry at the world they want to hurt just anyone. Hopefully you won't take offence at me telling you how this made me feel and if I'm wrong you have my deepest and most sincere apologies.
Guest

[rosencrantz]

Maybe it's a shared British sense of humour, Portia - but you had me 'laughing in the aisles' there as I read your last post (and not at the expense of any individual either).

You know, Guest, what I find difficult about the posts you make is that -

1.  To my mind, you seem to have missed the point of most of the posts to which you have responded (negatively?).

2.  You don't seem to see the humour in the posts you read and you react to them, shall we say :  in a serious way (but it comes across as a put down).

3.  In fact, 'Guest' appears to present herself as such a cardboard cut-out of an 'N' that I wonder if she's real.  At one stage I felt that I could have gone down a DSM list on narcissism and checked off just about every one of the items off against the posts that she's made - are you just having a game with us, Guest???  Or testing out the narcissism that's been perpetrated on yourself to see how we handle it in order to learn from us??

If you're not having a game or testing, may I suggest that a little more awareness of your own actions may bring you a more positive response from the people posting on this forum (if you would find that helpful).

I have my own 'N' traits - and I know that when I get all 'hoity toity', on my high horse, all superior and 'knowing' that I've 'fallen off the wagon'!    I think those 'N' traits were a gift from my mother.  You live with one, have to survive one, and you become one. That happens for spouses of Ns as well as ACONs.

The thing that saved me and made my life better was marrying a man who, although having his own N traits, had many non N traits, who gave me a kinder way of thinking about the world (and then a kinder way of thinking about myself) and finally led us both to discover 'abundant thinking'.  

I moved from YOUR FAULT to nobody's 'fault' and, following my own path, discovered that :

"Everyone is doing their very, very best - even tho clearly they aren't"

Think about it.  It gave me a way to understand my own son - and a way of handling the hurts that other people give us on a daily basis (which we receive just because, in our modern lives, we're brushing up against busy semi-strangers all the time) as well as a way of handling the frustration of dealing with people like my mother.

The people I love best in life are the ones who are honestly forgiving.  They are always happy people, they make me feel better about myself, I strive to do better for them, and I end up being 'just great' in their eyes.  And the results for everyone is always 'abundance'.  The closed-in ones give out sh**, get sh** back and end up with sh**.

I think that the forgiving ones are probably the ones who see 'half full' and plenty of cake for everyone.  The closed-in ones are the ones who see 'half empty' and 'too little cake for too many people so I'd better grab mine while I can'.

I think many N victims see that there's plenty of cake but know that the Ns want it all and have given up hoping for their turn!!!  

But it's OK to get and it's OK to give and it's also OK to give to get if everybody's honest about the deal.  THe problem with Ns is that they can't do any of that without manipulating the hell out of everyone else.
R

[Matthias43]

Rosencrantz, yes I know Redwall very well. Used to love it when I was in my early teens not so long ago. My family is English, but we live here in America for the time being.

Bunny, still hiding in your burrow I see? Sorry, I couldn't resist... because I'm still wondering whether you have your own issues or you have an N in your family, or what else would cause you to think/write the way that you do. And I still disagree very strongly with you when you say that healing is not possible. That is a dark and hopeless thing to say really, and I wonder what it is inside you that makes you view another person like that.

Matt

[Anonymous]

Matt,

I will always speak out against the bad idea of giving people false hope about their parents and spouses who are PERSONALITY DISORDERED. I think it is irresponsible to come on a board of N-survivors and tell them to read the writings of a group of "healed" narcissists. If you want to insult me, go ahead. It only makes you look bad.

bunny

[Anonymous]

The friendship I have is I suppose primarily with his wife, so maybe I need to discuss this with them. It's a bit tricky, having zero to do with him I mean. His wife and I became friends a few years ago volunteering our time for the same organisation and now have a lot to do with each other.

This psychiatrist has already justified the friendship to himself. So he will only reassure you that it's okay.  As I said, he is the one crossing boundaries. You don't have to do anything.

bunny

[seeker]

Dear Guest,

I'm glad to hear that you are responding positively to the awareness that relationships with therapist friends can be delicate.  My post was simply there to agree with Bunny's position and state a few reasons why.  My questions were also included not so much as to demand a direct response from you but to encourage reflection on why such an ethics rule might be required.  I'll try to be more explicit next time.

As for the rest, this is a public forum.  We have discussions so all can learn.  Any moves to exclusivity or specialness or qualifications to participate are limited to "have you been damaged by a narcissist?"  I can answer yes.  My pain and story have been expressed in other threads, so I won't take the space here.

Guest, if I put myself in your shoes and had to read responses that challenged me directly, I would feel uncomfortable.  It's what any of us do with that discomfort that reveals a little bit about our character.  Just knowing that fact can make us all a little jumpy.  We're all here to learn how to ask the questions of "what am I feeling right now?" "What just made me feel that way?" "What are the different responses I could have for feeling this way?" etc etc.  Self-reflection in other words.

I can also understand why the tone of some previous posts might alienate some, esp. newcomers.  And some newcomers seem to not be aware of the tone that comes across in their own posts.  I say this not to provoke you, Guest, but to turn your attention back to your own style of communication (as Rosencrantz has).  Portia is aware of her tone and has admitted to it in other threads, sometimes with hilarious results.  The board held up a similar mirror regarding tone to Matthias on this very thread, with good results I think.  (Thanks for hanging in there Matthias.)  So... once all the swords and crowns are checked at the door we can be a pretty nice bunch and ask some pretty good questions.

I'm glad you & Bunny spoke up because the quality of therapist/patient relationships is really important.  I hope we can all try to be receptive to all posters with all the various and wonderful voices they have and the point they have to make.  
Peace, Seeker

[rosencrantz]

What's in a name - quite a lot.  Matt - your name bothered me a lot when you first turned up (something biblical, evangelistical, apocalyptical!).  But when I realised your age - well, there's only one Matthias and he's a hero!!!  My son took to reading very late but when he met Redwall, he was smitten and never looked back!!!  I have much to thank Redwall for.

Matt (if I may call you Matt) - people who can see the narcissism in themselves just have 'unhealthy' narcissism which they can work on and change.  No doubt about it.  But people who have the full blown personality disorder are too damaged to WANT to change (unless they have terrible and repeated crises which make them feel that the alternative is worse).  

But usually there's only a short window of opportunity, and they need to be in the right place at the right time with the right support right there in place.  Even so, they usually give up on treatment as soon as they start to feel better (and they feel better very quickly as a result of getting the attention of a therapist or group).

It's the WANTING to change that's the issue.  And the way they deal with things doesn't actually cause them pain (it just causes pain to the people around them) so why should they want to???  If you're living in hope of a parent making changes, then you will waste a lot of your life being disappointed and feeling betrayed.  If you're wondering if you can change, yes you can!

But read 'Controlling People' for one person who seems to be making headway with some N spouses.  And try Children of the Self-Absorbed if you are trying to get a handle on an Nparent.

Take care
R