Men Who Can't Love: How to Recognize a Commitmentphobic Man

[WRITE]

No one can give you what you refuse to take.

if onloy that were true...we have a child together remember.
On the scale of things I know lots of the other parents here have it many times worse than I do.
 

 I wonder if you could think about simply moving to the far other side?

I think if I have to move because he won't control his behaviour or he gets worse, I'll pick another city or as you say go right across town.

The truth is he gets to me far worse when he sabotages our son, and one of the reasons he's upset right now is I've had a concerted effort of stopping that.
He gets in a real rage when he thinks I am controlling him in any way, plus I have a social life and he is angry about that too.
It won't be long before he'll be messing with the childcare arrangements and financial arrangements.

I have no doubt he won't stop until he either meets a new partner- in which case I will never see him at all ( his words! ) or he precipitates another trauma in one of us.

I'm mentally really well, it's unbelievable really how strong given everything that's happening and I'm working really hard too. Maybe he expected me to crack up with the first pressure.

Maybe he's cracking up.
He says he's having strange thoughts and feelings and not sleeping.
He says I don't care and I never have.

I AM assertive with him CH, but it's just part of his pernicious nature to say and do things to hurt me. I have no doubt that however else he changes he'll never stop doign that to me, the pattern is too ingrained, and nothing I have ever done or said has made any difference over time.

[Certain Hope]

Dear Write,

  Having a child together does not have to mean that he gets to call you whenever he wants or show up at your door whenever the notion strikes him, does it? If he is doing most of his damage over the telephone, then perhaps he needs to be put on a regular, strictly enforced phoning schedule with the purpose of those calls being to interact with his son... not you. ??? maybe?

Love,
Hope

on edit:  ((((((((Write)))))))) where there is a will, there is a way. This comes from my heart full of awareness of the devastation N brings upon a spirit when he's not strictly maintained by a rigid code of conduct which does not give an inch upon his whims.

[Gaining Strength]

Write-
I'm sorry about what you are going through.  I love your spirit and have admired your words in so many of your posts.  My heart is with you and I am sending powerful thoughts of encouragement your way.

Yours - GS

[WRITE]

Our relationship unfortunately hasn't been that way CH.
If I don't take the dropping in and the calls then I will be punished- either via my son or some practical consequences.

I do feel I sort-of know what I'm doing and it's the best way I know how, I was just venting about it earlier. Sorry if I was whiny 

I know all divorces get emotional, but only people who've been in N marriages know what it's like to divorce a guy whose emotional being is somehow built upon you....and he sees all kinds of barbs and insults which aren't there so attacks you....and the ensuing aftermath where he seems to walk away unscathed and everyone else is traumatised.

At the moment he's in the worst pain ever. And I'll get to see it switch off in a day or two too.

The only thing I can do right now is try not to let it undo me when I am feeling vulnerable etc.

I have no doubt now- he hates me, he doesn't really believe I have any right to a happy existence, maybe any existence, unless it's for him.

I guess eventually all my feelings for him will go, like my father, and I will only interact at a huge distance, but I feel if I do that now- we'll be in court, fighting over custody/ money and I'll still have to deal with him just the same after.

I just keep telling myself, he doesn't care about you, to him it's not about you, and waiting for something else to catch his attention- which it always does.
His emotions switch on and off.

And maybe if they're not he's in some kind of change phase? I don't know. He is supposed to see the psych this week. Maybe she'll have him commited  Ok, that was mean....can I say 'he's making me have mean thoughts' CH?  "Cos he is!

I'll send him a message in a bit, hoping he is feeling better.
And pray for him whilst I walk the dog.

I'm going to fill in my Thankfulness Journal now- today's a day i really need to focus. I'm thankful for the lovely brunch gift, for the hummingbirds, for choir practice ( where I was able to go talk and be friendly to this guy and decide- I have to not let this spoil my enjoyment of this group ) For my friend there and a lady who offered to come sing at one of my groups. And despite crying all the way to the swimming pool when I arrived I had a nice chat and a lovely swim and it's loosened up my frozen shoulder.

Thanks GS, I feel the encouragement, thanks everyone. I'm sure I'll feel better tomorrow, like Scarlett:
tomorrow's another day!

[Certain Hope]

Maybe she'll have him commited

Doesn't sound a bit mean to me... only rational, reasonable, and likely the best case scenario!

Hugs, Write

Hope

[Hops]

((((((((((((((((((((Write)))))))))))))))))))))))

Those little hummingbirds are so powerful. What a beautiful thing to see.

It's wonderful to hear you claim your strength in spite of the pressure he's putting on you.

(Do you really want to email him to see if he feels better? Doesn't that reinforce your "responsibility" for his wellbeing? But if it's a pattern you do because you know best how to handle him, how to keep a balance of some civility...I respect your choice. It's delicate coping, untangling from an N.)

To encourage you--one thing I remember from my studies about Nism is that although Ns do react with fury when they are rejected, once their anger passes (they always, always line up new sources of supply)...then they become INDIFFERENT to you. Really. So the scenario of him hounding you into the future is not really likely.

I think if you just hold steady and keep the steps moving, and celebrate your inner hummingbird every time he throws drama at you, the play will sputter to an end.

FREEDOM, Write.

Hugs,
Hops

[WRITE]

Do you really want to email him to see if he feels better? Doesn't that reinforce your "responsibility" for his wellbeing? But if it's a pattern you do because you know best how to handle him, how to keep a balance of some civility...I respect your choice. It's delicate coping, untangling from an N

yes it is delicate- I have lived with it for over twenty years and know exactly what will trigger my ex to behave badly, I can write the scripts these days.

I sent the email, and called him this morning, then we met for coffee this afternoon.

I was really glad I had emailled and called because during our conversation it came up again that I don't care about him and I was able to point it out as fresh examples that I do.

It's really difficult untangling all the misunderstandings between us, some going back years, but if he is committed to change I will support that- and told him this- but only at whatever level is safe and healthy for me too.

I feel he's crossed that boundary several times lately.

But today he's been back to the psych ( first appt he's ever made without any external prompting ) for some therapy and changed meds.

He made me smile, when I pointed out that I had been caring etc he said 'that email you could have written to anyone, nothing special about it, you're like that to anyone' and I pointed out he was special enough to have his own title in my life for many years...and that didn't make him feel any more loved either.

I pray a lot you know, and G_d directs much of this.
I'm not meant to stay in an abusive relationship, or to accept abuse, but I believe I am meant to love and be compassionate.

then they become INDIFFERENT to you. Really

He doesn't understand quite why I would though. He said you do know once I meet someone else I won't be interested in you any more...I said yes, so take that as evidence I'm caring anyway.

***

The hummingbirds are amazingly fragile, but so strong and resilient, and having such fun flitting about looking for sun and nectar. And though they disappear most of the year, they are a resurrection, returning with unfailing grace even though they may be running late ( 'circumstances beyond our control'! )

[pennyplant]

I pray a lot you know, and G_d directs much of this.
I'm not meant to stay in an abusive relationship, or to accept abuse, but I believe I am meant to love and be compassionate.

then they become INDIFFERENT to you. Really

He doesn't understand quite why I would though. He said you do know once I meet someone else I won't be interested in you any more...I said yes, so take that as evidence I'm caring anyway.

Well, I needed to cry for days but couldn't till I read this.  Someone with the regular flow of emotions loves someone who turns out to be N.  Inevitable heartbreak.  Sure, all the causes and hurts and abuses and damages are part of it.  But this right here sums it up in a nutshell.  For me anyway.

I'm very grateful for this exchange of yours, WRITE and Hops.  It helps me gain understanding.  And I do need to understand.  I think it will help me move on from my own situation.  Which is certainly not as long-term and all encompassing as what you're dealing with, WRITE.  Still breaks my heart though.  I'm very impressed with what you are doing here.  If only your ex could take it in.

PP

[Hopalong]

Write...it's YOU:

they are a resurrection, returning with unfailing grace even though they may be running late ( 'circumstances beyond our control'! )

As one of my blunter T's said in the past: You get there when you get there.

There is absolutely no question that you are motivated by deep compassion. Bless you for all the years you've tried. I'm glad he has his T, his meds, and more knowledge from your efforts than most Ns ever wind up with. He has been lucky to share so many of your years.

And PP, I'm very moved too by "take this as evidence of my caring." I'm not sure he'll ever get it, that's a big expansive heart...but I sure do.

(((((((((Write and PP))))))))))

Hops

[2bbetter]

OH.... MY..... GOD.... !!!

ambivalence:   poor dear, he's scared, so I'll be extra extra reassuring, show him how rewarding I'd be
inconsiderateness:   he just hasn't learned how wonderful it can be to be considerate, I'll show him how
abusive:   this must be his buried pain from his terrible mother/childhood/etc., I'll show him kindness
manipulative:   this is one of his survival mechanisms and if I am just smart enough, I'll outthink him
indifferent:   he's trying to disguise his deep-down yearning and vulnerability so I'll be extra attentive
coldness:   I just need to be soooooo warm and giving, even more than before, that will help him thaw
cruelty:   this is a test of how good I can be, that I can even love and forgive when he's hurt me so
lying:   I know he's so insecure, and this has been his way of coping. I'll show him how to trust


There's women like this too, you know!

can add stealing and emotional infidelity there too

& I reckon commitmentphobic is a symptom of a lot more going on in there (or way too little going on in there !)

I'm a guy who's responded in exactly these ways over the last year living with a fiancee who went from the most wonderful fun giving loving caring talk about anything & everything perfect match to, well... all of the above overnight. Thing is, it wasnt that she changed, just one slip & the whole false facade falls apart, revealing what was going on all along. We were just blinded by the headlights before the mack truck ran us over !

All of the above ways of handling the abuse(r) are not so much for their benefit, but for yours
Look at it this way: If you love yourself enough to still be loving and give love under extremely cruel circumstances, imagine how dependable and solid your own foundations are within yourself

Sure, your EGO is battered horrendously, but your SELF is holding you together and will continue to do so !   

So yep, great lessons learned about someone else, and yourself, thing is there's good and bad in what we learn about ourselves and can apply it to our lives, talk about it with others, look after our friends better with these insights when they ask us "what do you think about..."

We are lucky to have the opportunity and courage and strength to take an honest deep look at ourselves, blessed to care enough about ourselves and others to learn and use the experience for everyone in our lives hapinness, and ultimately so much better off than these poor wretched cowardly souls who dont have the guts to face themselves, let alone others.

Phew ! Yup, lots of anger here

[Hopalong]

Well hello, 2bbetter!

I love the way you plunged right off the diving board into the board--WELCOME!

(And you bet, Narcissistic or commitmentphobic women can hurt loving men just the same way.)

I'm sorry you've been through it too, but you sure sound as though you're coming out like a leaping tiger. Will look forward to learning more about you.

Hopalong

[WRITE]

from the book I got that the commitmentphobic does share something with the N- an inability to handle strong emotions, conflict between love and engulfment.

But the lack of empathy of a npd ( and especially if you get someone on the psycopath end of the scale who uses and abuses every part of you ) makes it rather than a hurtful surprising event an ongoing battle.

If you love yourself enough to still be loving and give love under extremely cruel circumstances, imagine how dependable and solid your own foundations are within yourself

exactly. Welcome 2bbetter!

Unconditional love- which I am only just learning in a non-parental context- is just that. No ties other than the love. And the love given out returns in your life eg

I'm not sure he'll ever get it...but I sure do.

It's like ripples on a pond, the more it changes you, the more it changes everything around.

My ex may never love me back but now I can love, really love- I can feel G_d's love, other people's love.

And their hostility isn't so scary too- I can understand more about it.

I can never love my ex enough to change him- only he can do that- but loving him anyway is changing me!

Thanks P ( and crying is good; I cry a lot some weeks, usually frustration )

If only your ex could take it in.

Who is to say he won't, somewhere down the road. But I'm taking it in, and seeing how I have to let go my expectations and human need for guarantees and 'results' to trust that love will do what it does, and I can't control that.

My ex said to me I took advantage of his vulnerability! We argued a bit, but found a communication level and he was able to describe it better and I know what he means- I wanted the guarantee of someone who could not abandon me on some level, probably because my earliest experience was being abandonned. Now I know what my strongest subconscious motivations are. Abandonment and the fear of being unloveable.

[Hopalong]

the fear of being unloveable

Some fear is irrational. ((((((((((((((((loveable Write))))))))))))))))))))

I love what you said: "Love will do what it does."

(I went to a church mtg. last night and though I was contributing good stuff I absolutely could not shut up and felt embarrassed and wrote everyone a note after, and David, our minister, wrote me back saying, "You hold yourself to higher standards than everyone else. Is that fair? Please don't feel apologetic, it was a very productive meeting.") That was SO kind.

Write you are being so very brave right now, facing all this change.
You will make it and you will be safe. Keep singing, keep trusting yourself.

Hops

[Brigid]

Write,

Abandonment and the fear of being unloveable.

This is me to a T.  The fear of abandonment kept me begging a man who didn't love me, was having an affair and had admitted to being addicted to pornography and masturbation, not to leave me.  How pathetic is that?  Then you get to the flip side where you think you should end a relationship first, so as not to be abandoned (because you assume you are not loveable and will eventually be abandoned).

I wish there could be a way for you to minimize the amount of access your stbx has to your emotions, but I know you feel you are doing what is best for everyone concerned.  I, personally, had to completely separate myself from my ex during the divorce proceedings--changed the locks within weeks of his leaving, only let him come to the front door when picking up our daughter, and only worked through my attorney on the legal stuff. 

From my experience of reentering the dating world, you will probably find it somewhat difficult to pursue new relationships while still so entangled with your h.  Most healthy men will be tentative at best about a situation like this, as I would have been if the situation were reversed.  I hope the two of you can come to a good working relationship which only revolves around your son.

Welcome 2bbetter.

If you love yourself enough to still be loving and give love under extremely cruel circumstances, imagine how dependable and solid your own foundations are within yourself

Yes, somehow we manage to keep from losing that part of ourselves, no matter how hard they try to steal it from us.  Sometimes you just have to dig very deep to find that loving foundation and then learn to trust it.

Brigid

[WRITE]

I, personally, had to completely separate myself from my ex during the divorce proceedings--changed the locks within weeks of his leaving, only let him come to the front door when picking up our daughter, and only worked through my attorney on the legal stuff. 

Hi Brigid, good to hear your voice.

Having heard so many different experiences on the N-scale I wouldn't advocate love as a method for everyone- most Ns notoriously take advantage. My ex included sometimes.

But my ex does exhibit some signs of trying to change at least, plus although he's inconsistent- I can largely read him now, and he does try in his own way to make amends for the hurtful things he says and does. He's inconsistently consistent (?! ) in that.

In a way I've divorced him off emotionally and it's when I 'forget' and respond to him like he's another loving person in my life then get hurt when he sips back into N behaviour...that's why I know it's definitely over for us. He may possibly change enough to be a good partner with someone else, but with me he always slips back into our old pattern, plus he's really resentful anytime I grow or change.

you will probably find it somewhat difficult to pursue new relationships while still so entangled with your h.

You're right- no more dating until after the divorce is final.
It's just confusing things.

I mean romantic dating- I am happy to accept invitations to socialise with my guy friends and I can spend some time learning how to relax and enjoy a man's company without going into emotional overdrive!
It's funny how many of those invitations I have had lately, at first I was a little hurt thinking 'doesn't anyone want to be really involved with me' but now I realise- it's where I'm meant to be right now and I can truly move on and find a lover next year when everything is sorted and falls into place.

I hope the two of you can come to a good working relationship which only revolves around your son.

He's wonderful with a lot of the things I am rubbish at.

Last night my son had a bicycle accident and hit a neighbour's old car causing 2 scratches. The guy didn't seem pleased or able to say he wanted us to fix things, but they are the people we have helped so many times financially and I started to feel disappointed when he talked about getting the damage fixed- and especially since we know the family well and they have no clue about financial responsibility and would quite likely get a huge repair quote unnecessarily.

My ex talked to me about my emotional response, said 'if you don't forget about what you've given away, you weren't really giving it away' and fetched $200 and gave it to the guy, who was delighted.

My ex would only accept $50 from me although I offered half, and then went and talked to our son about his hysterical response to the accident, he said 'if you do something you are afraid about that's what me and your mum are here to sort out, you can take responsibility for your actions without overreacting!'

One reason I know I am doing the right thing for our family is I have watched all this develop in a man who didn't have much clue before our son, and there are lots of situations like this which he can handle better than I would.

Do you still have to see your ex at all Brigid?