Men Who Can't Love: How to Recognize a Commitmentphobic Man

[WRITE]

before he breaks your heart
by
Steven Carter,Julia Sokol

I've had a look at this, not closely yet, it's really interesting especially the idea a man will give off tons of signals that he's interested, loving, committed etc and then when you respond he can't cope but instead of telling you 'no thanks' he can't even make that decision and will disappear or trash you and the relationship.

The book says there's a model of tolerating the behaviours which keep him interested- he wants you at an emotional distance but close on his terms in a way he can withdraw any time it gets too much for him.

He'll do that by making excuses, stopping calling or making arrangements.

Then when he misses you or feels lonely he'll reach out again, only to withdraw as soon as you're ready to make an emotional connection.

I only skimmed through, but when I closed it I already thought these things:

1) if someone's ambivalent or unwilling to define the time you spend together after a few 'dates' best to stop seeing them; they don't know what they want or cannot communicate it.

2) trust what the first couple of dates throw up when he's off-guard and being charming and answering questions openly. My second date with my friend I remember him joking about being afraid of commitment. As we have got closer he has grown less affectionate not more.

3) trust your instincts- this is harder for me because I tend to tune out 'I feel hurt/ uncomfortable' way beyond what other people would tolerate. And I'm still working through some of my own trust issues and barriers to intimacy.

4) if you're getting mixed messages it's not about you. Back off- the other person can approach you again when they work themselves out.

I had a lovely evening with a guy, we were out in a group and went for a walk and then wrote to each other for a few days until one day he wrote he didn't have time, he was just starting a masters etc. I sent him a light-hearted reply saying good luck and ignored him and now we're friends. There is an attraction there- I do trust my senses on that- but if he's not interested in pursuing it I'm not interested in trying to get his attention.

I said this somewhere else- I only want someone who really wants to be with me; and I only want someone who wants to build a good relationship with me.

I'm prepared to wait- but not spend my time in a relationship with someone whilst they decide!

Thank goodness Hop recommended that Judith Sills book, because I would have been head over heels in love by now and so hung up on the outcome of making him 'the one' I'd be oblivious to how he or I were truly feeling.

[penelope]

my experience dating close to 50? guys has been - when they stopped being interested, it was usually cause they had someone else in mind (even if it happened to be the 20 yr old working at Starbucks they could never actually date, or some porn star dream of theirs - oh God this is the worst!  In other words, someone was more interesting to them than me, and they prefered to have that person in the forefront of their mind, not me.

Moral:  thank your lucky stars they gave you the sign before you moved in with them!!!

(unfortunately, spoken from experience of living with a commitment-intamacy-a-phobic, and dating plenty others).  bleh.

[WRITE]

In other words, someone was more interesting to them than me, and they preferred to have that person in the forefront of their mind, not me.

yes, that's what I would usually think too, oh he met/likes someone else.

I think my friend has issues with the fact I'm not divorced yet- which is fair enough. But why can't he just say that!

Have you found over time you can identify these commitment-phobes earlier?
I don't like to judge too much, but I did think about this guy anyone who gets to age 34 without being married or in a live-in relationship is probably not in one for a reason- which could be from doesn't want one to can't do one.

I guess all will become clear over time...

[penelope]

hi write,

you might be onto something there.  A guy who's never been in a committed relationship..probably cannot commit for whatever reason.  Yes, unfortunately, I think so in most cases (there could be some exceptions out there--some very unlucky souls, but what is the statistical probability?).

I remember dating a really nice guy for a short time, who was proud of the fact that he'd been in 3 committed relationships (married once, and two serious live-in girlfriends) and thus kind of Knew the Ropes when it came to women's needs (including communication and emotional).  I really appreciated this about him, he was very sensitive to my needs, probably because he had had the experience, like he said.  Unfortunately, he ended up being a heavy drinker and had strong attachments for an ex.     Bad timing for both of us.  I met someone else who had the above minus the drinking and ex in the meantime.

It is weird how dating works.  Sometimes you meet someone who may be perfect for you..but happens to be going through a bad period in their life, for whatever reason.  You can always put him "on hold" in your mind anyway.  I wouldn't wait by the phone or anything, but if he happened to call you up in say a few months or years..and said something like "I was going through a very tough period back when we dated before, and I realized I may have let a wonderful person slip through the cracks..do you want to meet for coffee?"  I mean, love is a committment to another person, which means its partially a choice both parties get to make.  So, if someone is having issues with the choice, they're having issues with the committment, not necessarily with You.  Right?

pb

[WRITE]

well there's always that romantic movie notion of 'waiting for the right one' but the truth is someone has probably met several suitable potential matches by their thirties ( including women more compatible and prettier then me  ) so it's best to have eyes wide open when a seemingly wonderful guy is unattached.

It's probably not because he's been waiting for a middle-aged undivorcee to rock his world...and if it was I think he'd be saying so not acting strangely!

[Hopalong]

Hi Write,
SO glad you got the book.
Hope you'll read it through.
The specifics were what helped me so much.

Also the author's compassion for both the "phobe" and the women who can be so confused and hurt by the ping-pong behavior. I think it's GREAT that you remembered what he said about fearing commitment on the 2nd date.

One thing I learned...very belatedly...that in EVERY SINGLE ONE of the bad, heartbreaking relationships I wound up in (in my mad search for as many Nmen as I could collect  ) ... EVERY SINGLE time they had given me signals on our VERY FIRST OR SECOND DATE that in hindsight were very very clear clues to their character.

I realize now that my intuition works just fine! What has to change before I date safely is for me to develop a complete and serious commitment to honoring my own intuition. To really pay attention to my "stray" thoughts and observations about a person and then make a decision and act on it without shame. Examples:

--D)first date with the last N (he spent the entire time obsessed with getting me to admire his art, and later that evening, was awash in a magical merging-fusion fantasy)
--C) another: talked about cars the entire evening and asked not one question about me
--B) another: drank too much
--A) another: told stories that seemed just a little "off"

Reality:
D) hugely N artist who used me like a gallery assistant, PR arm-candy companion, and played romantic for a few months...and after a year suddenly gave me I-don't-want-a-real-relationship speech
C) controlling and obsessed with stuff
B) very alcoholic
A) pathological liar (married that one. Ow.)

So trust your guts. Ultimately, this book helped me affirm my own capacity to observe, and obseve accurately. It's not a courtroom, they're not "guilty" until proven worthy...but a date IS an opportunity to enjoy an encounter with a new person and also express full confidence in your intuitions about them. Including "Thanks, but I've decided this isn't a fit for me. I wish you well."

Hops

[WRITE]

confused and hurt by the ping-pong behavior

well here we are and I am already a little confused and hurt by his behaviour.

If he said to me 'I don't want to get involved until you're divorced' I would know where I stand. I felt him take a huge step back because he didn't realise I wasn't, and I think that's healthy- but only if he can talk to me too!

He's just run away then when I see him he's gazing at me and I am unsure what he is thinking. Maybe it's just one of those strong attractions where the timing is off and it's just not meant to be.

in my mad search for as many Nmen as I could collect  ) ... EVERY SINGLE time they had given me signals on our VERY FIRST OR SECOND DATE that in hindsight were very very clear clues to their character.

 

remember that guy I dated who told me he could never be faithful to anyone...I mentioned it to a lady who said 'well listen to him- and believe him!' She dumped her husband after his third affair where he produced another child...his excuse was 'you knew what I was like when you married me...'

It's not a courtroom, they're not "guilty" until proven worthy

well this is the other side too, I know because I've been hurt I am not so spontaneous and willing to jump in, and I don't want to come across angry and critical whilst I am evaluating things. I'm not at all bitter- but I am still healing.

"Thanks, but I've decided this isn't a fit for me. I wish you well."

nice way to end it.

You think I'll be able to do it- you've seen how I've been with my ex ( smile )

THANK YOU!

[WRITE]

ps
I was looking for songs for my groups and this made me really laugh, the title but also the content:

Frank Sinatra - A Fine Romance Lyrics

A fine romance, with no kisses
A fine romance, my friend this is
We should be like a couple of hot tomatoes
But you're as cold as yesterday's mashed potatoes
A fine romance, you won't nestle
A fine romance, you won't wrestle
I might as well play bridge
With my old maid aunt
I haven't got a chance
This is a fine romance

A fine romance, my good fellow
You take romance, I'll take jello
You're calmer than the seals
In the arctic ocean
At least they flap their fins
To express emotion
A fine romance with no quarrels
With no insults and all morals
I've never mussed the crease
In your blue serge pants
I never get the chance
This is a fine romance

!

[Hopalong]

Briliant lyrics Write.    I love Frank! What a crooooooner.

I do believe you can do it, and I believe you can do it soon and spare yourself WORSE hurt and confusion. If you do it now (doesn't have to be dramatic, just a calm conversation in a public place) you don't have to have anger build up. You can just endure some private disappointment for a little while. (Write, with years of your Ex as comparison, a week or so thinking oh-well, wasn't-meant-to-be, siggghh...is that okay? Better than okay, to truly not set yourself up for that horrible yearning, unreciprocated longing, one-way readiness?)

(One thing I got from the book is that men who are truly commitment phobic are experiencing a literal phobia--engulfing them in panic. It doesn't excuse dishonesty or manipulation, but in a lot of cases it's not that...they honestly have no idea why they're acting so inconsistent. So I can forgive but I still make fast tracks! Because it's not going to change. Especially in a never-committed 35 y/o, I think...)

Don't worry much about what HE is thinking.

What matters is what YOU are thinking, and how YOU are evaulating what YOU are ready for.(Or not.)

Might be a little more time on your own would be good, so you don't do a rebound, ey?

luck...
Hops

[WRITE]

What matters is what YOU are thinking, and how YOU are evaulating what YOU are ready for.(Or not.)

Might be a little more time on your own would be good, so you don't do a rebound, ey?

you are right, and of course the rebound thing can be turned around too- who would want to jump into a serious relationship with someone who is still dealing with her ex, not yet even divorced, still healing...

 

[Hopalong]

You've got your brains in, Write, that's for sure.
I love what your friend said about the man who talked about being unfaithful: "Believe him!"

My old M.O. would've been (well, not about fidelity, but about a red-ink list of other things):

ambivalence: poor dear, he's scared, so I'll be extra extra reassuring, show him how rewarding I'd be
inconsiderateness: he just hasn't learned how wonderful it can be to be considerate, I'll show him how
abusive: this must be his buried pain from his terrible mother/childhood/etc., I'll show him kindness
manipulative: this is one of his survival mechanisms and if I am just smart enough, I'll outthink him
indifferent: he's trying to disguise his deep-down yearning and vulnerability so I'll be extra attentive
coldness: I just need to be soooooo warm and giving, even more than before, that will help him thaw
cruelty: this is a test of how good I can be, that I can even love and forgive when he's hurt me so
lying: I know he's so insecure, and this has been his way of coping. I'll show him how to trust

Horrible to see it written out, but these were my very very good reasons for finally not rushing out to find another relationship when the last one ended. I know that I'm turned off inside now, when I detect these things...but time will tell if I find another partner. Meanwhile, I'm more at peace.

Hops

[WRITE]

ambivalence: poor dear, he's scared, so I'll be extra extra reassuring, show him how rewarding I'd be
inconsiderateness: he just hasn't learned how wonderful it can be to be considerate, I'll show him how
abusive: this must be his buried pain from his terrible mother/childhood/etc., I'll show him kindness
manipulative: this is one of his survival mechanisms and if I am just smart enough, I'll outthink him
indifferent: he's trying to disguise his deep-down yearning and vulnerability so I'll be extra attentive
coldness: I just need to be SO warm and giving, even more than before, that will help him thaw
cruelty: this is a test of how good I can be, that I can even love and forgive when he's hurt me so
lying: I know he's so insecure, and this has been his way of coping. I'll show him how to trust

I don't think this is much different than many of us here- and people with the traits home in further as we don't repulse them and we busy ourselves making them comfortable.

These were all traits I experienced early in childhood along with another- immaturity ( to which I responded by becoming the grown-up little girl taking care of everyone and suggesting what they should do )

time will tell if I find another partner. Meanwhile, I'm more at peace.

I would love another partner, someone who I can build a good relationship with. I've had no sexual partner most of my marriage, I'd love to develop that side of myself. I'd love to be able to trust someone and have fun with them.

But peace is more difficult, I'm beginnig to wonder if I cannot acheive peace when my ex sabotages my happiness as often as he can, doesn't seem to be able to help himself.

I'm starting to think about a physical move away from him, I can't see my way through the logistics yet, and much of his poison is via the telephone anyway, but the happier I am the worse his attitude and behaviour is. If he can't see me maybe he'll feel better.

He seemed like he was doing so well, but he's had a typical about-turn ( the moment he has to sit with or deal with any difficult emotions he goes into the old mode of- it's your responsibility )

I had a wonderful brunch today with a nice guy I know who heard it was my birthday recently and wanted to take me out. I didn't mention it to ex but he obviously picked up on something- first he didn't follow through on the childcare arrangements but my friends took care of that. Then he called during my drive back and said there wasn't enough time to do our family afternoon ( there was 4 hours- plenty enough ) Then he called in moped around a bit, said very little except he is really miserable and left without saying 'bye or anything.

He also called me during dinner with friends last night and hung up, and then when I was driving home to say he was worried about my safety being out at night etc. I felt he was playing on my anxiety about my friend etc more than actually concerned.

I can't believe he keeps saying he cares about me when everytime I smile or look happy or well he does his utmost to make me miserable, and keeps attacking me because apparently I made him miserable! He hates me because he isn't happy; nothing I have ever done in over 20 years made him happy, he's blind to that though.

This evening I feel physically sick. I was retching when he first got here.
I have such tension in my neck and shoulder it really hurts, and I put myself to bed and felt better
only to have him drop in, wake me up, act out a bit and leave! Then I felt sick again; it's evaporating as I type so I know it's pscho-somatic.

Sorry for whining, I am just exhausted with it all.

Typical public holiday for him- maybe it's called Labour Day because he's such hard work!

[WRITE]

I just went downstairs with a heavy heart and guess what- the first hummingbird was in my garden. They are late this year, I think their patterns were altered a bit by the hurricanes last year. I wondered if they'd come at all but just when I thought nothing would lift my spirits today, the hummingbird did.

Thank you G_d!

I'll move one of my chairs near to the window and enjoy an acrobatic display for the rest of summer. Two summers ago some nested and we had dozens.

~W

[Hopalong]

I'm starting to think about a physical move away from him,

This is an incredibly healing thought thing...it may produce anxiety, but wow, was it great to read. Don't pressure yourself. Trust yourself. You're doing FINE. This is new territory and your boots are broken in yet and you've got some nasty blisters but you are GOING to get to the top of this mountain and see a beautiful, peaceful view.

the happier I am the worse his attitude and behaviour is.

This would be the unchangeable trait of an N-ex. The incurable, immovable, true-to-his-nature trait. Yep.

If he can't see me maybe he'll feel better.

If he can't see you maybe YOU will feel better. And your son will do just fine. He's a smart boy.

You live in a large city, right? I wonder if you could think about simply moving to the far other side?

hugs, and no pressure (new thoughts like that do rattle the applecart, I know)...

Hops

[Certain Hope]

Dear Write,

  One of the few true statements that ever proceeded from the mouth of N-ex =

  No one can give you what you refuse to take.

Love,
Hope