N mother description

[Gaining Strength]

I found an extraordinary description of an N mother on another site.  It is about 12 pages so I will just post the site here.

http://www.geocities.com/zpg1957/narcissists.htm

I copied this material to a file so tha I can spend some time with it.  I'm going to take each point and compare it to my mother.  I think this will help me sort things out.

it is extremely difficult to explain to other people what is so bad about her.

This line rings true with me and has been the source of so much isolation and pain.

Jacmac - I am especially interested in what you think about this reference.  You always find such good sites - I hope you find something of value in this one.

Yours - GS

[Gaining Strength]

She minimizes, discounts or ignores your opinions and experiences. Your insights are met with condescension, denials and accusations (“I think you read too much!”) and she will brush off your information even on subjects on which you are an acknowledged expert. Whatever you say is met with smirks and amused sounding or exaggerated exclamations (“Uh hunh!” “You don’t say!” “Really!”). She’ll then make it clear that she didn’t listen to a word you said.

This describes behavior I met with in my FOO and my marriage.  This is why I have been so surprised by the reception I get here.  This is also why I finally just pulled in and now that I understand the source of my pain I can embrace my experience, Thank God for my fellow travelers and leave this dark cloud behind. 

Thanks for the validation!!!  I have searched high and low, under rocks, in garbage cans for validation.  Whew!  No more dumpster diving for me.  Maybe that's why some of us go for the dregs, just "looking for love [validation] in all the wrong places."

Thanks for listening - GS

[Certain Hope]

Gaining Strength,

 Is there a description of N fathers, as well?

Hope

[teartracks]

GS,

The article...I found it with numbers 1 through 24.  Didn't seem like ten jpages.  Have I missed part of it?

tt

[Gaining Strength]

Not at this site Certain Hope.  But some of the things here did respond more to my father than my mother.  It's worth a look.  In my FOO my father is NPD and my mother has N traits. 

tt you got it.  I was surprised it was that long too.  But when I copied it to a Word document (Times New Roman pt. 12), it took 11 pages.

What did you think about the site, tt?

GS

[Certain Hope]

Thanks, Gaining Strength.

Alot of this sounds much like my brother, too.

Hope

[pennyplant]

Wow, it is overwhelming to think of all the people here who were raised this way.  Probably my FOO experienced about a third of this and that was enough to do plenty of damage.

Yes, it would be good to see a "father version" of this.  Probably harder to see in some cases since so much child-rearing was/is left to mothers, regardless of their talent for it.  One can probably get by with a more dysfunctional father since he might not have been around all that much.  I'd say my parents were close to equally talentless for raising children, just in different ways.  But raising us was considered more my mother's sphere.

My mother has often said she raised us according to Dr. Spock:  "Feed 'em, love 'em, and leave 'em alone!"  And I always think, "Well, you got the 'leave 'em alone' part right!"  She just wasn't all that interested in having children.  It seems like the only things she enjoyed doing for us were things she would've done anyway for herself.  Everything else was just drudgery.

One time, before my father died, I watched him playing with his friend's dog, fetch and stuff like that.  It was all about testing the animal and controling her.  And I thought, that is just how I was raised.  Pretty damn clueless.

PP

[Gaining Strength]

I got you Pennyplant -

the dog lesson must have been jarring even though informative. 

Crazily, I thought my father was perfect until his OCD took controll over him. (I was 30 that year.)  What really gets me is that I thought they knew what they were doing.  I just assumed that if there was anything wrong it was with me.  Yet, contradictorily, by age 13 I was looking for a better model of parenting that I could use when I grew up.  A complete disconnect.

My parents went from controlling where I went, what I wore, who my friends were to not acknowledging my college friends, my college graduation, my worklife or anything else once I left home.  From complete controll to complete abandonment.  And still I couldn't figure out what "I" did wrong.  Now that is sad but I bet I'm not alone.  And more recently when my husband died they have completely abandoned me to fend for myself even though I have been throuh disaster after disaster - lost job, $100K plus debt by husband, $50 K damage to house by mold, young child to raise - no help, no acknowledgement of my struggles. 

That's life with N FOO.  - GS

[Stormchild]

Holy mackerel, this is a textbook description of an abuser.

So Ns are all abusive.

I had suspected as much.

[pennyplant]

Yes, it was kind of a lightbulb moment.  A lot of what my father did all his life reminds me now of what it would be like if ten-year-olds were in charge of the world.  Not really knowing what to do so trying to make everything be under control so nothing can go horribly wrong.  Something like that.  No creativity or ability to go with the flow or understand that just because someone is your child, it doesn't mean they are going to be just like you in every way.  No sense of wonder and awe at this new being, who came from you, but who is really just a completely new miracle to discover.

My parents were controlling when they had to pay attention, but for the most part they had very little interest in us.  My sister acted out from the age of two on, so what little ability to pay attention that they had in them went to damage control with her.  I noticed, though, as an adult in my 30s and 40s, that my parents then began to pay way more attention to me and require my presence quite a lot more often.  And I resented it quite a bit.  Now that I am busy and have responsibilities of my own, now they want to spend time with me?!?!?  You gotta be kidding.  And because they had been divorced since I was 14, this meant that I'm doing double duty at times.  Can't just go to one house and get a visit with both of them out of the way at the same time.  Nope, dad required a 40-minute round trip and mom required a two-hour round trip.  Ah, just the little stuff like that really got to me for awhile.  I needed them when I was growing up.  And couldn't have any of that.  Now that I'm on my own and hardly care at all, now they want me around.  Great.  Yet another responsibility.

Now, you know, GS, logically, that "you" didn't do anything wrong to cause your parents to abandon you.  They are very, very flawed people.  How very sad that you had to pay the price.  It is good that you are learning new ideas and teaching yourself the correct thoughts now.  They did wrong things to you.  You didn't deserve any of it.

Sometimes I think that the very silence from these N-type people is the most telling thing of all.  When they are silent, it is about things they simply can't handle.  Period.  So, by the silence they make it go away.  In their minds anyway.  Like toddlers who think you can't see them when they close their eyes because they can't see you.  That's what I get out of it anyway.  The things they won't acknowlege--those are the biggest things of all and they know it on some level.

Pennyplant

[ANewSheriff]

GS:

it is extremely difficult to explain to other people what is so bad about her.

Wow.  I can relate.  I have many times tried to explain my mother's antics to people and never seemed to be able to articulate the dysfunction in a way that I felt was understood.  I always found that people wanted to make excuses for her behaviors.  I would hear, "Well, may she is..." or "It sounds like she just..." and I would walk away feeling ashamed and guilty that I had spoken so hurtfully about my mother. 

What I think is that we largely live in a society that idealizes the mother figure.  I know many women who are best friends with their mothers.  They talk on the telephone daily, they shop together, they craft together, they go on trips together.  It seems that it is hard for many people to come to terms with the fact that just because we are physically able to birth a child does not necessarily mean we are maternal goddesses.

I have come to a place in my life where I can honestly say that I cannot stand my mother.  She is terribly mentally unstable.  I completely believe she would be diagnosed with one or more psychiatric illnesses should a competent psychiatrist ever get hold of her.  I have chosen to "divorce" this dysfunctional pit of despair in order to save myself and my family from the hurt and ridiculous and unnecessary gaminess.  I am just done.  Now, I have to be ever vigilant in my own fight against repeating this dysfunctional behavior.

Thank you for a great link...

ANS

[gratitude28]

I can't access the site from my work computer... I'll have to check it out at home. I also have a bunch of sites downloaded that I read through from time to time to remind myself that I am not crazy... like you said, GS, other people often don't see the behavior. She is like Jeckyl and Hyde now, too. I would see her on her own and she would say something nasty and cruel about someone, and then be a picture of sweetness and caring when with the person. It's unbelievable to me that a person can be like that.
ANS, as always, you mirror my thoughts. I find the woman ridiculous and disgusting. I can hardly stand to hear her voice anymore. I am repulsed and I find it a mystery that anyone can tolerate her.
Love you all,
Beth

[Gaining Strength]

I find it a mystery that anyone can tolerate her.

I cannot figure out how my parents social lives have been not at all effected by their behavior.  My friends all dropped me over time.  It still hurts but I have come to understand why.  I was so very negative and my whole world view was twisted, but it still hurts.  Now that I get it and have begun to see real differences in the way I interact with people I do hope to begin building friends again.  Isn't is a strange kind of irony that those who suffer the most as children pay such a huge price as adults. 

I think it is really important that I hold on to being greatful that I have a clear view today.  I could have lived a full life without it. - GS

[cat]

the description fits my mother to a "T".  Thank you so much for posting it. 

One of my favorite TV shows is "Everybody Loves Raymond."  I think I enjoy it so much because Marie somewhat bears a resemblance to my own n-mom.  It's interesting to watch a tv show deal with it in a way that makes me feel better about my circumstances. 

Know what I mean?

[Stormchild]

I cannot figure out how my parents social lives have been not at all effected by their behavior.  My friends all dropped me over time.  It still hurts but I have come to understand why.  I was so very negative and my whole world view was twisted, but it still hurts.  Now that I get it and have begun to see real differences in the way I interact with people I do hope to begin building friends again.  Isn't is a strange kind of irony that those who suffer the most as children pay such a huge price as adults.

Your parents choose people to interact with who tolerate their behavior. These people are not terribly healthy. They may seem healthy, but they run on denial. They're enablers; they may be very very nice, but they don't know how to say no to Ns.

You may have tried to befriend healthier people, and unfortunately they can be less tolerant at times; if they haven't experienced N damage themselves, they may not perceive how it affects others, and they won't always have the insight and compassion needed to see into what is happening. Which is weird... you would think healthy people would have these things - but they don't always. And when they do, they often reserve their use for a limited number of people, rather than giving them universally to all. ["Healthy" people who have lived sheltered lives tend to strike me as cold; and this is why.]

Of course, if you are drawn to Ns - and try to get them to meet your needs - they will be even less tolerant! So it can seem as though you lose no matter what.

But now as you say, you see more clearly, and you're emerging into the light. Brava! More power to you!

[Added on edit: re the 'coldness' of the sheltered healthy; it occurs to me that there is a significant difference between those who are healthy because they have never been hurt, and those who are healthy because they have healed.]