Author Topic: N mother description  (Read 17204 times)

Hopalong

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Re: N mother description
« Reply #45 on: September 09, 2006, 08:51:46 PM »
Chris, you're asking me fascinating questions but I am honestly too weary tonight (and still have things to do before morning) to give you the answers you deserve. A few brief phrases (and also please search my history of posts here, you'll find a LOT of anecdotes about my mother that may help you see her more clearly....)

But I was very interested in your Aspie's-N contrasts...and in a way I think my mother is comingled there.

She lacks empathy. She has emotionally blank and inappropriate responses to tragedies. But she is capable of being moved, by suffering children stories (she taught 1st grade)...and I believe it's real distress but at the same time seems to have little depth. My own distress never roused her to action, almost as though she never perceived it. I was quiet, but walking around with a broken heart, and wound up flunking a grade out of despair over being bullied. She seemed helpless to help or defend me. Recently, she was upset about Steve Irwin's death. The abuse in her own family she kept rigidly secret for most of my life.

That's scattered and inadequate, but hope it helps.

thanks for your interest...

Hops
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Gaining Strength

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Re: N mother description
« Reply #46 on: September 09, 2006, 09:34:45 PM »
Hops -  Hurray!  Hurray!  I am feeling a little loosening of the rope as well.  I FEEL better today.  I just got out my laser and fired away at my ANTs.  I held on to all th signs of progress and I was able to get my suitcase put away (from a late July trip), and clean up a little in my bedroom and feel GOOD about it.  That last part I am realizing is very important.  Detaching from the shame is really detaching from my FOO voice that shames me today.  I'm just replacing their voice with yours and others from here.  A huge hug and thanks.

Take care - Gaining Strength

pennyplant

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Re: N mother description
« Reply #47 on: September 10, 2006, 09:56:47 AM »
Chris2,

I've been reading along this thread with a great deal of interest and recognition, but also with a sense of anxiety and confusion.  The anxiety and confusion is within me because I'm having a hard time getting a handle on how to fit my parents into the narcissism spectrum (have had this trouble all along since I learned about narcissism).  It feels like I'm still too close to it.  Still not able to separate out the traits from just plain old having been so used to my upbringing that I thought it was normal all those years.  Now I know it was not.  But I'm still somewhat at the beginning of the discovery stage, I think.  Having a hard time understanding how I could have parents who perhaps truly did not care about me anywhere in there.

My father diagnosed himself with Asperger's.  This was towards the end of his life and it gave him great relief and peace of mind to finally understand what was "wrong"with him all his life.  I believe he diagnosed himself correctly and, had he lived, might have made real progress as a result of that new knowledge.

My mother, I don't really have a handle on yet.

Here are some of her reactions to my having been hurt several times as a child.  These injuries were the result of nobody really paying attention to me.  Bad all on it's own.  But the reactions seem significant to me as well.

Oh, this is hard to talk about.

I have been kidded somewhat about having fallen on my head a lot.  To this day I have nasty headaches on the left side of my head whenever the weather changes.  The first injury I know about was when I was an infant.  A little girl down the street liked to come see me and my mother would let her hold me.  One time the girl dropped me and I landed on my head.  My mother freaked out at the girl and sent her away never to visit again.  Don't believe I was ever checked by a doctor after this incident.

One night I fell out of bed.  I vaguely remember this one.  I got myself down the hall in the dark to my parent's room and told my mother I had fallen out of bed.  She told me I was fine and to go back to bed and I did.  No memory of her (or my father) getting up, turning on the lights or whatever.  In the morning she was shocked to discover that I was covered in blood from my head having been cut when I fell.  I don't remember that part.  Don't believe I was taken to the doctor.

At a family picnic I was climbing a slide and fell from the very top of it and hit my head on the cement pad below.  I was only about two when this happened.  No mention of going to the doctor.

When I was about four or five we visited a friend of my mother's.  There was a hammock in the garage and I was laying on it and swinging it.  I fell out and hit my head on the cement floor.  I remember this one vividly as it hurt so very much.  I told my mother what happened and she took us home and put me to bed to sleep it off.  The worst headache of my young life.  No trip to the doctor.

All this is filtered by decades of time.  The reason I don't think I was taken to the doctor was because we usually were not taken to the doctor.  My mother's parents never took them to the doctor either, due to lack of money.  So that is how she was raised.  I don't know that it was malicious.  It was just how my parents thought.  My father's mother had been a nurse and they were poor so he probably rarely went to a doctor either.  This probably seemed normal to him as well.  Over time, they became much more reliant upon doctors.  But when I was growing up it was different.

One time I was riding on the back of my sister's bike and fell off.  She accidently ran over my arm.  I freaked out because I was afraid it was broken and a blue lump immediately appeared on my elbow.  I ran crying to show my mother and she reacted by pointing at me, laughing hysterically at me and basically making fun of my tearful, frightened reaction to having been hurt.  She sent me back out to play.

This next story is the hardest one to tell about.  My husband is the only one I have ever told this one to.  I was about three.  My sister was about two.  It was winter and my mother was trying to go somewhere with us, probably the grocery store or laundrymat.  But the car got stuck in the snowy driveway and she just couldn't budge it.  She was incredibly frustrated and angry.  Any young mother in that situation would be.  I understand that part so well.  We went back in the house again, in defeat.  And something small I did, or my sister did, was the last straw.  It set her off in a rage.  We were in the kitchen.  My mother was sitting in a chair spanking me but it just wasn't enough punishment.  So, she grabbed me and held me under the shoulders as high as she could and dropped me to the floor from that height.  I landed on my tailbone.  It took my breath away and I could hardly cry, just moaned.  She did the same thing again and maybe one or two more times until she came to her senses and realized that I might be severely hurt.  So, then she was frantic and made me get up and walk it off.  I remember how wobbly my left leg felt in my hip joint.  She made me keep walking around in a circular path through the house until she was satisfied that I didn't need to go to the doctor or hospital.

This particular incident has never been talked about.  I'm sure if I confronted her about it now she would deny it completely.

Immaturity, lack of empathy, I don't know what this is.  I see there is a pattern.  But I don't know what to call it.  I have heard all the stories of her own childhood where she had several severe illnesses or conditions due to her parents having waited too long to seek medical or dental care, due to lack of money.  Was she too traumitized at this point to trust doctors?  Too uncared for to be able to care for me?  My sister was not denied care or medical attention when it was obviously needed.  She was the one who acted out.  I was the one who could take care of myself.  Maybe it was as simple as that.

My mother's mother suffered from untreated depression her entire life, perhaps even post-partum depression.  There was no mother/daughter bond between my Grandmother and any of her four daughters.  Period.  Anything they did with her or for her was through a sense of duty or obedience only.  Grandmother's brother was diagnosed bi-polar but refused any treatment.  So, serious chemical imbalance runs in the family.  My mother was raised in this atmosphere.  I don't think she has a chemical imbalance herself.  She is very selfish, materialistic, etc.  I have seen her laugh in hysterics over a very sad and tragic documentary on TV.

She never got excited by our accomplishments as children.  Only worried about how much effort she would have to make to attend a concert or ceremony of some sort.  In fourth grade I received an award for having the highest average in the class.  I was shocked that she attended the ceremony.  Then I remember that summer she got mad about my friends who often bragged about themselves and what nice things their family had.  So, she made me wear this award medal to the park one day so these friends could see how smart I was.  I felt stupid.  It was so inappropriate.  Nobody even noticed my stupid medal, luckily.  But what an odd thing for her to make me do.  And how obedient I was to go through with it even though it made me very uncomfortable to do it.

Each year when we got our new school clothes, she would ask me when I got home, "So, did anyone say anything nice about your new clothes?"

I couldn't have certain colors of clothing, red or purple, because they would "clash" with my red hair.

My sister had to wear a lot of brown because brown was a good color for her.

Another color memory:  When we made Christmas cookie cutouts, we could not have any blue frosting, even though there was blue food coloring, because there is no such thing as blue food.  It probably only came up as a subject because blue was my favorite color.  My mistake.

"Rules" like these made me even more self-conscious than I already naturally was.  Made me a very tense, uptight child.  And a very entertaining target for neighborhood bullies.  Of which there were many on my block.  My parents told me to ignore it.  What clueless people they were.  My father did actually have some sympathy for my plight.  My mother did not seem to have any sympathy or understanding.  Afterall, she had been fairly popular growing up.  What was wrong with me?  She often wondered that aloud.  My father was afraid it was because I was like him, and that idea made him feel guilty and gave him a lot of grief.  My mother always said I was like my father's side of the family and not like her at all.  She would pick on characteristics of mine that were like my father.  Anything about me that was like her, she just didn't see or acknowledge.  "Look at how you hold a sandwich just like your father!"  "Your eyebrows sweat like like your father's!"  "You are just like your Aunt Polly!" (my father's sister, who my mother didn't like).  It is true that I take after my aunt in many ways, but it sounded like an insult when my mother said it.  When someone who loved my aunt says it, it sounds like a good thing to be.

I never was just me.  I was never fine just the way I was.  There was always something that should be fixed.  If anyone was paying attention at all that is.

I think my mother is getting worse now.  She has been married for nearly 25 years to someone who may be N as well.  And it is like they are engaged on a battle to the death for some kind of power.  So, that may be what is making her worse.  At the same time, I feel some distance now that I didn't feel before.  I'd rather work on healing than getting caught up in her condition.  But I guess part of my healing is to look at how I was raised.  A work in progress.

Pennyplant
"We all shine on, like the moon, and the stars, and the sun."
John Lennon

Certain Hope

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Re: N mother description
« Reply #48 on: September 10, 2006, 05:43:47 PM »
Dear Pennyplant,

  Just wanted to tell you that I can only imagine how difficult it was for you to express all that you have here. Big hugs to you.
 
I always sensed that I was expected to be able to handle everything and take care of myself, too. I was too shy and quiet to act out, I guess... in fact, I remember waking up one morning with my neck so swollen and painful... mumps on both sides, it turned out. My main goal (age 8?) was to hide my "problem" from my mother, because in her perfect world, it was unacceptable to exhibit a symptom of any kind. She never said that... she didn't have to, I just knew. It was cold weather, so I wrapped one of those long knitted scarves around my sore neck and went off to school. And I remember being covered with hives in fourth grade. Nerves, I guess. I hated French class and just couldn't seem to get a handle on the pronunciation. She had me running here and there constantly for all sorts of music and dance lessons, on top of hours of nightly homework assignments... 9 years old and my nerves were shot. I dunno whether she ever dropped me on my head, but that would explain alot  :P  If she did, she'd never admit it. All she ever told people was how my lips were so red when I was born, that "everyone" said it looked like I was wearing lipstick. And then there are her stories about how my brother and I "never cried". As long as I can remember, I've known that the intent was to show everyone what a superb mother she is, nothing to do with me. And cry? Who would dare. No ripples allowed in that pond. I see pictures of myself at age 3-4... somber as a judge. I think she's more of a liar than I'd ever guessed.

Much love, Penny. No way around it, I don't think, just gotta go through it.

Hope

pennyplant

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Re: N mother description
« Reply #49 on: September 10, 2006, 06:28:52 PM »
Thank you, Hope.  I've been resting all day since I posted that.  And also reading the book Stormy told me about, The Chaneysville Incident.

Must be I'm starting to feel better because your post made me smile.  I also woke up one day in fourth grade completely covered in spots.  I showed my mother and she said as soon as I got to school, to go to the school nurse and find out what was wrong with me.  I guess since I felt otherwise fine, she didn't see the point in going to the trouble to take me out of school, call the doctor, and have me seen for a real diagnosis...cheaper this way too.

The school nurse said I probably had hives.

It was a one-time deal, so I bet it was probably nerves.

Nobody is ever really alone, are they?

Love, Pennyplant
"We all shine on, like the moon, and the stars, and the sun."
John Lennon

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Re: N mother description
« Reply #50 on: September 10, 2006, 06:44:45 PM »
Penny,

Nope, nope... never ever alone!  I am so glad you rested...  and then smiled... was hoping you would.

After writing that last bit to you, something else came to mind. This business of requiring self to be strong can lead to actual physical peril in a way I'd never admitted.

Last summer we were at one of our favorite spots where the kids can swim while we wade into the water and keep cool, fishing.
My line got snagged and I walked farther out to unhook it. There were some people passing by on their floaty rafts... I stepped into a hole, a really deep spot, over my head... this woman going by stopped to talk, asking me about the fishing, etc, etc... I am struggling to hold onto my pole and stay afloat. I mean, really struggling. I don't swim very well at all and was literally feeling like I could drown.
Do you suppose I could say, "Hey, I am in trouble over here!!" ?  nope. Honest to Pete, I coulda drowned. Why didn't I say something?
I just couldn't. Like those dreams where you're on the tracks, paralyzed, and the train is bearing down on you 100 mph and you try to scream... and nothing will come out. I would not, could not ask for help. People were all along, but to my mind, I was completely alone and it was up to me.

Love,
Hope

Stormchild

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Re: N mother description
« Reply #51 on: September 10, 2006, 06:45:13 PM »
Pplant

sounds like your mom didn't much care for your father, if she was so critical of you for being like him...

one would think she'd be glad you resembled the man she married if she married him out of love.

amazing that she sent you to school with a rash like that. How could she know it wasn't German measles?

Sorry you were put through all those things - and physical abuse to boot. Glad you are feeling better and glad you found the Chaneysville Incident - it's not a cheery book but it will light a fire in your soul, I promise you.
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pennyplant

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Re: N mother description
« Reply #52 on: September 10, 2006, 06:59:19 PM »
Oh my, Hope, I don't want you to think I'm entering into a self-sufficiency competition with you, but.....

I almost drowned once too.  I'm a weak swimmer but decided to swim out to a raft thinking I could just about make that distance.  And I barely made it and hauled myself up there and laid down trying to catch my breath.  Then the life guard blew his whistle.  Time for everyone to get out of the water while he took his break.

Oh, boy, I knew I was in trouble because I had not recuperated yet from the swim I had just barely completed.  But back in I went and doggy-paddled back to the cement wall that held in that part of the pond.  Truly I don't know how I ever made it back.  I had used every bit of my strength.  Only pride kept me going, but if there had been ten more feet to go I'd have been a goner because pride also would have kept me from flailing and acting like I was in trouble.  I would have lost consciousness and gone under before even thinking to act like I was drowning.  It probably took me half an hour to recuperate and I never left the edge of the water for the rest of the day after that.

I don't know, Hope, why it is that the very "skills" we have developed to survive our childhoods can also be our very undoing in other circumstances.  Maybe we will learn the answer to that as the healing progresses.

Pennyplant
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John Lennon

pennyplant

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Re: N mother description
« Reply #53 on: September 10, 2006, 07:03:31 PM »
Stormy, I think she probably married my father out of lust and a desire to escape home.  He was completely in love with her all his life and I suppose as a young woman that kind of attention felt pretty good.  Plus, she was pregnant.  With me.

Yes, I am already seeing what you mean about The Chaneysville Incident.  I know I will be glad to have read it.  Thank you, Stormy.

PP

"We all shine on, like the moon, and the stars, and the sun."
John Lennon

Stormchild

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Re: N mother description
« Reply #54 on: September 10, 2006, 07:12:04 PM »
Plus, she was pregnant.  With me.

Oh crappola... one of my high school friends got this irrational garbage from her mother too... my friend was "the cause" of her parents' marriage and her mother punished and resented her like a fury.

Yet, my friend had a younger brother and sister, and they both [as far as I know] were her father's legitimate kids too, and her mother spoiled them rotten, favored them sickeningly, rubbed my friend's nose in the favoritism every chance she got.

Even as a high school sophomore I could see the woman was insane. Hating the kid that brought about the marriage that created the two other kids she blatantly favored.

In. Sane.

I am so sorry, Pennyplant.
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Re: N mother description
« Reply #55 on: September 10, 2006, 07:25:05 PM »
Pennyplant,

   Oh no, no competition here. This is simply amazing. I had never even thought about this whole drive to self-sufficiency, but little by little, these things are coming to my awareness. It is a sort of compulsion, to be an island unto ones self, I think.

   But is it really pride that would let us drown rather than ask for help? If so, it must be a portion of pride which is totally subsconscious. I mean, I am not ashamed to stumble before others in general. But it's like ... in that desperate incident, when rational thought was suspended for a moment, there was a reverting to old instincts?
You said:

I would have lost consciousness and gone under before even thinking to act like I was drowning.  

The thought that someone might be willing to help (without berating?) was non-existant. I know that it never even occurred to me to ask for help either. The constant (underlying) mode in me has always been: I have to be able to deal with this, to handle it.

I think it was you who said on another thread, something about your husband offering to help with kids when you were a young mother, but you reacted defensively. I never received offers of help from their dad when my children were young, but nowadays, I notice... if my husband offers to do something that is normally within my domain... my instinctive reaction is to take it as a criticism.
As much as my mind recognizes he in no way is trying to demean me, that instinct is still strong. N did so much of that.
I absolutely despise these old knee-jerk responses and am determined to work them clean out of me.
I am so glad you're here, because some of these things I don't even see until someone else brings them to light. They are just so engrained.

Love,
Hope

pennyplant

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Re: N mother description
« Reply #56 on: September 10, 2006, 07:26:24 PM »
Mostly I think that the main problem with my mother is that she is completely unable to grow and change and learn from the past.  She just never puts two and two together, is never willing to adjust her beliefs and behaviors in a real enough way to make a difference.  It's one thing to resent me for coming along too early, precipitating a marriage that didn't last, whatever.  But when I asked her in my thirties, wasn't she glad afterall to have had me since I turned out well?  And she said, no, I still wouldn't have had kids if I had it to do over again.  She is truly incapable of learning anything important.

I do learn and that is what will save me in the end.  That is what all of us here do as well, and that is one of the most important things that will make the difference for each of us.

PP
"We all shine on, like the moon, and the stars, and the sun."
John Lennon

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Re: N mother description
« Reply #57 on: September 10, 2006, 07:32:09 PM »
Quote
I do learn and that is what will save me in the end.  That is what all of us here do as well, and that is one of the most important things that will make the difference for each of us.

PP

Amen.

pennyplant

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Re: N mother description
« Reply #58 on: September 10, 2006, 08:00:34 PM »
In that moment when rational thought was suspended--I do remember what was going through my mind at the time.  I was picturing someone jumping in and grabbing me and I would have no dignity and be lying there not able to speak and a crowd would gather and look at me and think I was stupid.  I would not have known how to act after that.  Would not have known to just be grateful that somebody helped me.  I felt embarrassed that my friend who I was with could just swim strongly and I couldn't.  I didn't want to make a spectacle of myself.  I didn't want to be humiliated.  These were more just pictures in my mind.  Memories maybe of times when I had felt like a spectacle and felt humiliated in front of my peers.  Unworthiness.

It did occur to me for a moment, while I was still on the raft, to holler out that I wouldn't be able to make it back so quickly.  But I thought it for only a moment.  No one in my life had ever believed me in such situations before.  Any time I acted like I couldn't handle something, I was argued with and belittled.  I was not supposed to make any extra trouble for anyone.  I felt that if I tried to ask if I could just stay on the raft during the break, I would be denied my request and would have felt like crying.  I suppose life guards have rules to follow about things like that.  And I still would have had to swim back anyway.  It was something of a "battlefield decision".  I think it was Light of Heart who made the comment about being parked at the self-serve pump by our parents.  You make spur of the moment decisions you aren't really qualified to make and then just stick with it.

This near-drowning happened the summer I turned 18.  Little did I know in that moment that in 9 short months I would be somebody's mother.  So many obstacles and so many miracles.  It's been very hard, though.

PP
"We all shine on, like the moon, and the stars, and the sun."
John Lennon

Certain Hope

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Re: N mother description
« Reply #59 on: September 10, 2006, 08:32:47 PM »
Yes, parked by the self-serve pump.

You make spur of the moment decisions you aren't really qualified to make and then just stick with it.

That's it. And then wake up 40 years later and realize that you're no more qualified to make decisions now than then, or at least it seems so, at times.

I don't even recall the mental images. They may have flashed through, but I can't remember them. The urge to hide, to avoid, to not be a spectacle... that, I remember. It is very hard indeed. Thank God for the miracles.

Hope