Twenty week plan!

[lighter]

I had a feeling about that church boy. 

Sorry he got weird on you. 

All men aren't weird, Write.

I know a couple that are downright wonderful.... many that are just nice people. 

You have to be choosey about people ::nodding::

Nite

[WRITE]

I had a feeling about that church boy. 

you mentioned it 

It's not him, he is who he is, it's my reaction to who he is.
Another time I wouldn't take any notice and he'd either sit up and behave or go away, actually I think we're both a bit disappointed that neither of us is ready for a relationship and then son was acting out and I needed either support with that or to be left alone with that....I think he's a bit afraid of getting too involved actually; and that's my fault for testing him out so much.

I clearly don't have enough trust yet to start a relationship!

But something did solidify in me last night, leaving the concert cross with son and sorting him out and not taking the problem to ex. This is the way it is:

I don't have anyone to lean on.
My son is the most important person in my life.
Even if I don't have any more children I have him to raise as best I can in trying circumstances.
I'll meet someone or make a relationship with one of these guys when it's better timing, there's just too much going on right now.
I want to concentrate my spare energy on bringing my career projects to fruition and making my life secure as I can for myself.

I guess a period of mourning is moving into acceptance and the next phase of my life.

[lighter]

Wow.... Write:

Reading that last part of your post was like listening to someone expertly set a table with fine silver and bone china.

The tinks and plinks of competent motion and mindful intention.  Very satisfying and filled with economy of motion and purpose.

The one place I didn't feel that was in your first paragraph..... "..I think he's a bit afraid of getting too involved actually; and that's my fault for testing him out so much.'

'I clearly don't have enough trust yet to start a relationship!"

Especially the part where you say it's your fault for testing him out so much.  That still doesn't give him the right to invite you to a concert then be aloof and avoid you.  I have to throw a flag on that call.  There're better ways to slow things down or express fear.  Remember, this guy was pushing for a relatioship, do I have that right?  It just doesn't ring right that you see this as your fault, in any way.  ::shrug::

[Hopalong]

Me too Write.
You are a lady!

But it was a red flag for me, too, your making excuses for church boy's erratic behavior.

I know you have empathy up to your eyebrows and can understand all of his behavior in the most forgiving light.
That's part of what's so lovely about you. It's why you can still love and forgive your X for his Nishness, and see the actual love that also exists in parts of him, as real and worthy.

Still...all this forgivingness is wonderful spiritually, but not so helpful for you practically if you'd like a reciprocal supportive partnership one day. I am not suggesting that you abandon forgiveness, but just start to NOT be attracted to men who are such "challenges."

We're all here so well-trained to love the bad boys, or particularly the "unavailable" boys. Oooo, the challenge! Again (and again) we get to demonstrate our core kindness, our grasp of spiritual love. Of course we can love them! Do we even know that it's essential that we preceive real, not fantasized, reciprocity from the get-go? That's being loved BACK. We forget that part...

Can't say strongly enough how it's finally hit me that unavailable covers unclear, ambivalent, not ready, not sure, erratic, anxious...all that. Those men are unavailable.

I think Men Who Can't Love would be a very helpful book for you, hon. Was for me anyway. I probably over-identify so forgive me if I project too much, just take what's helpful and ignore the rest...

love
Hops

[WRITE]

Thanks Hops and lighter,

I've been just as messed-up in my own behaviour though.
And unclear, ambivalent, not ready, not sure, erratic, anxious
I'm pretty emotionally unavailable myself really.

I think it's the Buddhist part of my spirituality more than Jesus teachings, not so much forgiveness as detachment, which makes me not angry with these people.

It would be like being angry with my own reaction to them, if you see what I mean.

When I am well I expect that I will engender different reactions from others, but right now I know I give out just as many mixed messages and pull people towards me then push them away.

Just because I'm not rude or unpleasant doesn't mean I'm being reasonable either.

I shouldn't be trying to do a relationship at all right now, the timing is just not right. I'm not right. Yet.

I guess it has served a purpose of making me feel like I am still attractive and there are men out there, but I am coming to the conclusion it won't matter who I meet, I'll screw it up almost subconsiously until I am in a good place with other things, ex and son most importantly.

There's a sense of life passing me by which gave me a feeling of urgency for a while, but that is passed and I feel calmer.

I'm just going to keep putting one foot in front of the other for a while and let the rest of the trauma wash away.

My life is full of good things, I don't have to have everything I ever wanted right now....

There's a sense of dying about letting go a marriage isn't there. I've been clinging onto the ideals of the marriage even after I divorced, still looking for signs of not having wasted time, of there being things to salvage and things to come.

Like I say, my trust isn't high.
It'll grow if I keep taking care of myself.

I probably over-identify so forgive me if I project too much, just take what's helpful and ignore the rest...

your experience was marrying an even bigger NPD on the rebound?

I just read in the somewhat erratic Louise Hay book about we repeat patterns because we need to.

Not sure I quite agree with that, but we do repeat what is familiar and what we already know how to deal with even if it's not the best choice.

It's like tv repeats, they have some kind of hold and we don't change channel no matter how boring or unrealistic the unfolding scenario we already know is going to happen!

Reciprocity is a good feeling, but I am also developing adult acceptance of this too now.
If I am waiting for people to be constant and consistent in keeping all the balances of our relationships, I will wait a long time.
In realtionships there are gaps, flaws, periods of disconnect, human frailties.
I have to develop realistic too, not keep swinging between this Mother Theresa act on my part to frustrated disappointment when someone doesn't do what I want.

My mother didn't do what I wanted.
That doesn't mean I have to spend the rest of my life looking for others who will give me the unconditional love she couldn't.

Part of why I loved ex so much and so long was exactly that, I will act like I want someone to treat me.

I need to stop putting demands on people and accept them for who they are then move closer or further depending on their behaviour and responses and how they make me feel.

And never let a sense of desperation or overwhelming need drive me to relationships.
I can stay home and be alone for those times, or go to my closest friends.

With church guy we both have so many shared life experiences it's becoming a litany of misery and making each other feel off-balance and insecure.

The answer to that is clear- distance.

He isn't my close friend or partner and I shouldn't act like he is or should be either in my mind or in real life.

I can do this on my own, I don't need to lean on anyone and where I absolutely must I want it to be you guys or my most reliable friends, not get into unhelpful relationships and patterns with people who have also had a bad time!

I think I am clear now about where I begin and end, and where other people do. It's been sort-of blurred before....

Church guy knows that because he had those same distressing early years ( his younger sibling actually died from their neglect ) so we fit together well on this way of relating which people do who have been abandonned and who try to do bonds within the limitations of that damage.

[lighter]

Thanks Hops and lighter,

I've been just as messed-up in my own behaviour though.
And unclear, ambivalent, not ready, not sure, erratic, anxious
I'm pretty emotionally unavailable myself really.

Ummmmm... as I recall, chuch boy was pressing you for a monogomous comittment uyou told him you weren't ready for. 

You told him so and he pressed, trying to turn your polite, "Not ready yet" into a definitive "yes." 

That was my first red flag and there is nothing ambivalent about your answer to him.  You were clear and just bc he chose not to honor your feelings doesn't mean you were ambivalent.... like you aren't allowed to be ambivalent now anyway.  Pshew!

He may be cute and charming and popular with the girls but.... that still doesn't mean he can pick you like fruit off a tree bc he's in the mood to "pick" you.   

I might be remembering this wrong, correct me if I did: )


Heh, church boy.  I crack myself up. 

I gotta tell ya..... in general, if a man tries to turn your No into a Yes, that's a red flag.  I don't care if he has a very valid reason and dysfuntional childhood.... it doesn't change the fact that he's not honoring you and your decision.  He's trying to exert his will over yours and that's a number one red flag. 

The second one is when they do something that is irresponsible towards us or not nice then try to gain our sympathy afterwards which will lead to the question..... "what did/does church boy have to say about the way he treated you at the concert?  Just wondering.

I may be all wrong here.... I'm just saying and in general, these are good rules to live by, no matter who you're dealing with. 


As for making decisions from a place of fear or desperation..... that's not a good place to make decisions from.  You recognize that and I go in and out of it too.  So hard to stop doing it but it comes and goes.  Time, distance and perspective will help heal that. 

Being happy on our own is a good thing.  I don't think that's  a problem as long as you have a friend or two to touch base with, keep your feet on the ground, someone you can tell your truth to and still be accepted and loved.   

I don't mind being alone. 

It's so much better than living with an N. 

I wouldn't be so hard on yourself about being a bit "unreasonable" during this transition through the divorce.  If you aren't perfect company all the time then you're just normal.  There's an ajustment period that lasts at least a year so cut yourself some slack.  You're allowed to go slow, test the waters and be ambivalent if that's what you feel like doing. 

I guess the important thing is to get comfortable feeling how you feel and being able to share that with others?

How they react isn't your fault or responsibilty.

What I pick up most from your post is that you think you need to take responsibility for something here that you aren't responsible for, if that makes sense?

You may give out mixed messages, you may change your mind and you may feel free to express those feelings as you have them. 

Don't turn it into a reason to feel guilty.  That's what's buggin me about this.  You seem to feel a bit of guilt about church boy and I wonder why that is.  I don't understand that: /

  I think I can let that go now, lol. 

[Hopalong]

Oh, Write--you sound wonderful.
Just totally full of awareness, responsibility, and sense.
I am so impressed with your deep sense of responsibility.
Really. I almost never hear you blame anybody for anything.
You are a wise woman.

I loved what you said about not having to have every single thing you want in life right now.
(I could have used that bit of reality in so many self-sabotaging situations.) I honor you for this--it's big and it's SMART.

You remember exactly right--I went from a non-NPD but very selfish H¹, through divorce, and within 2 years was married to TOTALLY N pathological liar and conscience-free H² immature very damaged abusive man.

Was I done? Heavens no. In the 10 years since divorcing him I had about 4 bfs, at least 3 of them raving Ns. The last one was 2 years ago...and this time, for the first time, it has felt GOOD not to date, not to be in a hurry.

Every time I start to think, oh well, get out there...I find myself thinking, hmmm, but I'd rather build a business, play with my dog, whatever. And that's absolutely okay with me. I have no doubts left about whether it's okay to be alone. There are times when I definitely get lonely, but those feelings are no longer coupled with my old internal insistence that only a romantic relationship can complete the picture.

I still would like one. I hope for one. But I'm not expecting it and I'm too busy to be miserable if it doesn't happen.

Long detour, sorry...but thanks for your deep post, Write.

love
Hops

[WRITE]

I gotta tell ya..... in general, if a man tries to turn your No into a Yes, that's a red flag.

don't think I entirely agree with that one, I think for most people there's a bit of back and forth especially at the start of establishing a relationship!

That's what's buggin me about this.  You seem to feel a bit of guilt about church boy and I wonder why that is.  I don't understand that: /

  I think I can let that go now, lol. 

thanks lighter, but I don't feel a bit guilty really I don't.
Just wanting to accept my part in what is happening.

Actually I think what is happening is two people who are attracted to each other meet at a bad time, is all.

Every time we get near each other we start to trigger all kinds of stuff.

Now I'm a bit more used to all this self-development stuff, I know the answer isn't to try and work on him or work on 'us', the answer is to go away and work on myself some more, give myself some more time and space.

within 2 years was married to TOTALLY N pathological liar and conscience-free H2 immature very damaged abusive man.


I'm sorry. That must have been so difficult.
Glad you got out of it, and see why you have been so protective of me and wary.

Thanks for that!   

only a romantic relationship can complete the picture.

I'd love a romantic relationship but am beginning to see the reason I am not in one and the reason I was with ex...it's about me more than anything.

I meet loads of men, men with a mutual attraction.

I'm just not ready....

It panics me to think I missed something, but really every choice misses something else, two roads diverge in a yellow wood, and all that....

I'll wait until I stop grieving, so a new relationship isn't about fixing anything!

Thanks, love to everyone.

[lighter]

I gotta tell ya..... in general, if a man tries to turn your No into a Yes, that's a red flag.

 Write writes: don't think I entirely agree with that one, I think for most people there's a bit of back and forth especially at the start of establishing a relationship!

This is information of the 'intellectual' type.  I read it in a book called STRONG ON DEFENSE..... or was it THE POWER OF FEAR? 

Both good reads on trusting your insticts, staying out of trouble and handing yourself when you find yourself in trouble.  Self defense, self offense, that sort of thing. 

I didn't really understand it when I read it but I've spent some time looking at my relationships.  Mostly with men who I knew weren't right and was up front with them on that point.  They broke their necks changing my answer and then spent the rest of their time breaking mine, once they had me.  (figuratively) 

Take a look at your past relationships.... what do you see?

Also..... violent predators set us up by making us feel guilty for saying NO and changing out minds with guilt. 

Example:  You're on your into your apartment building when a passing gentleman offers assistance.  You say 'No, thank you.'  He says...'Oh.... I'm injured.... I offer my assistance to a damsel and she refuses my assistance. It's only a little help with groceries, not dinner and a movie'  ::charming grin:: 

You know you look like you could use some help but your gut just tells you to say not but he persists... and takes a bag from your arms and moves through the entrance to your building all smiles and charm.  ::BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP::  The last place you want , to end up is alone under his control in a place that affords him privacy.  If he's Mr. Right, he'll respect your NO and you can take note that he did..... and remember it. 

Nuff said. 

You sound good, Write.

[WRITE]

This is information of the 'intellectual' type.  I read it in a book called STRONG ON DEFENSE..... or was it THE POWER OF FEAR? 

I think at the start of a relationship we just don't know enough about the other person to be sure of them yet.
In fact my expereince has been even after knowing someone for a while things have changed when circumstances changed.
A lot of people are great when everything is going their way and horrible in the face of stress or problems!

My feeling with this guy is he is a decent guy but he has some high emotions around relationships and isn't really ready for a relationship; I suspect I am in the same place, maybe that's why we're attracted?

Take a look at your past relationships.... what do you see?

my relationships tend to have been ongoing. Ex is difficult but as much my friend as he is able to be.

Other guys I haven't done long-term relationships with because I've mostly been married, but they are still friendly and there's no animosity or drama.

That guy I dated who turned out to have loads of women, he and I meet occasionally in passing and are civil to each other, I wouldn't want to get involved with him closely, his values are very different than mine.

I'm very independent in nature because of the bipolar, I think a lot of men see that as a bit of a challenge, the player types. But I am getting to spot them and also careful not to give out messages that I am available for casual relationships. A lot of it is that I think, a mis-interpretation when one person wants a fling the other a serious relationship.

I can only do serious relationships I think, it's not worth all the hormone and emotional turmoil for anything else.

Thanks for all your pointers on this, Lighter, I am keeping it all close to heart as I wander around the wider world again!

[lighter]

Hmmmmm.... I have some interesting insights on dating..... if you're ever interested.

I've been single most of my life: /

[WRITE]

I have some interesting insights on dating

I'm all ears!!!!

[lighter]

I have some interesting insights on dating

I'm all ears!!!!

::