dark side of the moon- Help

[sea storm]

You describe the complexity and addiction involved in separating so well.

I imagine you to be a very pleasant and entertaining partner. Of course, it doesn't matter what a woman or a man is to a Narcissist. The must have fresh supply and they hate to love. I still find it mind boggling that so many of our experiences with ns are similar.

Also I am learning that if a post goes up and it is not the most brilliant and emotionally evolved post, it often is a catalyst for all kinds of good things to follow. I imagine that if someone wrote, "Oh Margo just get on with your life and forget about the past" that there would follow an avalanche of encouragement and validation.

Personally, I really get a lot out of how far people go in their addictive clinging on by their fingernails kinds of reactions to rejection. It can be soooo helpful to someone like me who can hardly believe there is life after N.  Imagine Madame Butterfly living to tell her story of the N American sailor. She would laugh and learn to make tofu to support herself and her child, get a lawyer so whats his name couldn't take the child out of the country, take up playing the sameisan and write a book about exploitive relationships. nevertheless, all this does not diminish her distress when it all happened.

I can't believe I am laughing at all this. I am not laughing at wounded people but at myself and singing in my chains.There is no shame in having loved deeply and grieving just as deeply or more.

Sea storm

[CB123]

Sea,

You SOOOO rock!

Look how far you've come!  I know it still feels like the dark side of the moon sometimes.  But you are light years from where you were a few months ago.

I am so PROUD OF YOU! 

CB

[Hopalong]

Imagine Madame Butterfly living to tell her story of the N American sailor. She would laugh and learn to make tofu to support herself and her child, get a lawyer so whats his name couldn't take the child out of the country, take up playing the sameisan and write a book about exploitive relationships.

Sea, that's brilliant. So not only have you achieved wisdom, but you're going to be very rich once this is produced on Broadway.

Tremusan, ditto everything CB said.

(I counted again and realize it was closer to six (I'm terrible about remembering numbers) since I was a full tilt raving Madwoman of Naillot. Now I'm only half-tilt, about everything.

love,
Hops

[Margo]

It will I promise but try not to jump out of the frying pan and into the fire!

::sniff::  Do you smell something burning, lol?  Just kidding.  I think: / 

[Margo]

(((((((((((((((((Margo)))))))))))))))))))))

And Sea...sweetie, thanks for the only laugh I've had today! Totally true:

Oh yes, if you  phone him have compassion for yourself rather than beat yourself up. Hops once said that she made these self destructive and last gasp phone calls until she finally just stopped. Cripes if Hops was once a love crazed ex partner then anyone can be.

I WAS crazed (probably that's why I had trouble hearing Margo's rant at first...uncomfortable memeory). But now that you mention it"

I wrote yearning, multi-paged single spaced letters explaining to him why my love was so true and deep and etetetetetetcetera that I just KNEW his: (lying, alcoholism, infidelity, etc.) would be all better once we were in a committed relationship.

God help me, I dreamed of marrying him. When I yanked my brain out of the romance novel that was my brain on crack .... ummm .... romance .... and looked his Nness straight on, well, then I was ENRAGED.

I phoned. I phoned again. I left contorted humiliating messages on his answering machine and then left others asking him to delete the first ones without listening. (Helllooo? Self? Nobody home...) I drove past his house to look yearningly at his front door and fantasize about his couch. I felt viscerally disturbed when I had to walk past his office building. I fixated on thoughts of his friends who got to be in his amazing orbit, because they were just his friends. I imagined I could be his best friend (in the universe, ever) and be perfectly fine watching him charm the next one. I emailed some more and called some more and hand-delivered letters. Then letters expounding on the earlier letters. I thought I would expire from my longing for him.

That was almost 4 years ago. Now...I'm sorry. Sad for him. Sad for me too, but in a way, grateful...because he was the one who opened the door to understanding what had driven me sooooo unconsciously my whole life (very Nish mother). Poor man. I do not miss him. I actually think fondly of him now and then, with a little sorrow, but not a trace of yearning. It's just a sad thing. His narcissism mixed with my raving romanticism and codependency were such a destructive mix.

So destructive that at last, at long last, I got tired of suffering. Still have chapters of it to go through, I know. But now I'm more dealing with suffering over fighting my own weaknesses in my OWN REAL life....not an imagined life with someone who cannot love me.

Sorry to hijack but I hope it contributes.

Hang in there, Margo. You have all my sympathy.

Hops

My first marriage was a little  more like that, lol.  And maybe some of my prior relationships.  Juuuuust a bit.  But, I must say...... so much easier to deal with when little children aren't involved.  I made babies with the biggest most powerful N I COULD FIND!  ::smoothing hair:: 

In my opinion you're entitled to romantic insanity like this.  We all are, at some time or another and Lord knows they are learning experiences.  It's when we add babies that it get's really scary.  No walking away.  No escape.  Ever. 

We're the Walton's this weekend, btw.  Weeding the yard and planting little seeds.  He's the most committed (acting) N you've ever seen.  His new motto is..... FAKE IT TILL YA MAKE IT.... which I gave to him, borrowed from AA.  I guess Sex Addiction people need their own way of saying it.  But.... my point is....... I KNOW he's faking.  Because I can't keep my mouth shut and just make nice, don'tchaknow?  His point to me is..... he knows I know..... but he's not going to give up till he's made it.  Creepy, huh, lol? 

Yup... the F'n Walton, I tell ya, lol.

[Margo]

Margo,
It is ok that you are writing on this thread. You are very relevant and speaking from your heart and I am listening intently.  I think it is GOOD that you are having feelings. They must feel pretty rough and tumultuous but you are grieving. Think of other cultures. The women really go at it.  Be nice when you can, the operative word being when you CAN. Otherwise have a lot of compassion for yourself. You really are entitled to your feelings. Who can argue with that.  So you are angry, sad, disappoiinted, disgusted and all the rest. It is very hard to disengage from a deep commitment even if it was to an N. There is a complicated grieving with these N mates. It is full of shock and betrayal and confusion and lies and doubting your sanity.  This is why you need a safe place to vent.  I hear that telling your story over and over will expiate the horror and trauma of it. This is pretty much affirmed everywhere in serious literature about trauma.

I can really see my self in you. Passionate, half crazed with longing for ex, spinning with disbelief about so much betrayal, feeling guilty for not being nicer, trying to minimize the damage when all the time you feel that he is going to gut you if he can. This is difficult stuff. Most people are not prepared for this and they can't listen to it. Even listening to the story is too much.

I feel very sorry for you and your kids. This is not deserved.
I don't know what to say except, just keep writing out your feelings.  I know i do better when I write too.  Oh yes, if you  phone him have compassion for yourself rather than beat yourself up. Hops once said that she made these self destructive and last gasp phone calls until she finally just stopped. Cripes if Hops was once a love crazed ex partner then anyone can be.

Lots of love to you,

Sea storm

I'm  not so much longing for him anymore....... I'm just unsure of what to do with myself.... without him. 

[axa]

Margo,

Been away for a few days so I just read your posts.  All I want to say is that everything, every response, contact etc is supply.  Its all they want.  It has been a hard lesson for me to learn but cutting off the supply in as much as is possible and freeing yourself to get on with your life is the safest and healthiest path.  It is so hard to get out of their web.  Reading info on NPD always helps me hold onto the truth and reality.  This is such a hard time for you and there will be all kinds of emotions, but there is life after Ns.

Axa

[TherapistN]

He's paying all the bills right now.  Going to go and have his attorney draw up an agreement.... not sure if it includes a no contest divorce or just the paperwork I can file if I want to later.  His conversation last night said we would would divorce.  This morning he was talking about staying married again.  He's so confused and unable to stick with a plan.  Keeps me exhausted.

Tremusan,

I don't think I realized that you and NH had not yet decided to divorce.  Are you waiting for him to file?  What do you mean that you will file if you want to later? 

Your confusion is so familiar to me.  It's reactive--just as mine was.  As terrible as my marriage was, I didnt make a change until I was forced to.  My NH had a huge temper tantrum (without the violence, but just as scarey) and in a moment of remorse he said he was moving out for the kids' sake.  I said OKAY, and then I just kept letting the ball roll.  I was pretty far into the process before I felt as though I was actually deciding anything for myself.

Almost everything was a reaction--what he did triggered what I did.  And I realized that that had been my whole life.  Just living a reaction. 

I want to tell you--don't do that, Tremusan!  But, it's like a muscle that needs exercising and, for you right now, the muscle is all weak and shakey.  I will tell you though that if you will exercise it, just a little bit, it will get stronger.  Sometimes it has to be something symbolic. 

You are waiting to see if your NH wants a non-contested, negotiated settlement.  Well, let me tell you about negotiations:  they are very confusing if you don't know what you want.  So, how about sitting down and making a list of what you want.  What do you need to start your life again?  Money for job training?  How much will it take to support you and your children while you are training?  What is the apartment rent in your area?  Do you need a car, or does your car need repairs?  Make a list of things that you can begin now (on his nickle) and what things you will ask for in a negotiated settlement.

Here's the other thing:  even in a negotiated settlement, both people need a lawyer.  If he hires a lawyer, that lawyer will work for HIS best interests.  Your lawyer will work for yours.  You can start interviewing lawyers now, for when he is no longer "confused".  Things will move very fast after that. 

Tremusan, look at his confusion as an "early warning system".  It will give you an opportunity to exercise your initiative "muscles".  Making a list of your needs, interviewing lawyers (the first consultation is often free or very inexpensive)--none of that is aggressive.  But it does exercise your initiative muscle and it will change the way you see yourself.  Waiting to see what he will do next is more damaging to you than you think.  It keeps you in the victim mode and, in that mode, you see yourself as powerless.  And you will let things be done to you if you think you are powerless. 

I imagine that my post sounds very logistical and not about emotions at all.  But it really isnt.  What I've learned in the last year is that I can change my behavior by my thoughts--or I can change my THOUGHTS by my BEHAVIOR.  I found that I could ACT like I had power and then I felt like I had it.  Or I could act like I wasnt afraid, and I would become brave.  It works both ways--and when you are in crisis, sometimes you don't have the luxury of waiting for your feelings to begin the process.  If you are feeling powerless and crazy because he wants a divorce before bed, and to stay married when he wakes up--do something powerful.  Make a list of what YOU want. 

Rant away, Tremusan.  We have all been there.  Like Sea says, you rant until it's all out of your system (and then, sometimes, you rant some more!)  It's much better to rant here than at NH.  Ranting here gives you power for action, ranting to him makes him realize he still has power over your emotions.  So even if he still does, don't let him know that he does.  Rant to us, to your lawyer, to your therapist.  We'll listen!

CB


Tremusan,

I dont think you are married to a N he appears able to have feelings of guilt and empathy.  Usually, they will stick to a path of lesser resistance than trying to work out a divorce.

Therapy101

[axa]

Margo,

Where there is confusion imo there is abuse.  His inability to stick with a plan indicates to me that he is buying time to see what is the best option for him.  he can turn on a dime, also my experience.  What was written in stone yesterday is of no consequence today if it suits him.  EVERYTHING IS ABOUT HIM.  As for the comments on guilt and empathy........... well I was with an someone who should have gotten an oscar for his performance on guilt and empathy.  I saw through it eventually when I realised that all the fake empathy and fake guilt changed nothing.  The behaviours, once he thought he had conned me AGAIN, returned to absolute N behaviour.

I have no doubt that keeping you exhausted is also part of the plan.  Engaging with them is exhausting your energy is taken up with so many things and also trying to figure out what is going on in his head.  I gave up on this when I learned that what was going on in his head was how could he get the best out of the situation with the least effort.  My guess is that he has a number of plans whizzing around in his brain and he is waiting to see which is the most beneficial to him.  That i believe is the bottom line.

axa

[mudpuppy]

I dont think you are married to a N he appears able to have feelings of guilt and empathy.

True, but many of them routinely fake feelings of guilt and empathy to draw back victims who are attempting to leave.
The test is whether those 'feelings' remain after the target is drawn back in. If they don't, more than likely they were not genuine but only a manipulation.

Usually, they will stick to a path of lesser resistance than trying to work out a divorce.

Again true, but he isn't actually working out a divorce. He's saying he will if it comes to that. The problem is, when it comes to that they never keep their word. Again it seems to me, it's manipulation masquerading as reasonableness.

mud

[Margo]

He's paying all the bills right now.  Going to go and have his attorney draw up an agreement.... not sure if it includes a no contest divorce or just the paperwork I can file if I want to later.  His conversation last night said we would would divorce.  This morning he was talking about staying married again.  He's so confused and unable to stick with a plan.  Keeps me exhausted.

Tremusan,

I don't think I realized that you and NH had not yet decided to divorce.  Are you waiting for him to file?  What do you mean that you will file if you want to later? 

Your confusion is so familiar to me.  It's reactive--just as mine was.  As terrible as my marriage was, I didnt make a change until I was forced to.  My NH had a huge temper tantrum (without the violence, but just as scarey) and in a moment of remorse he said he was moving out for the kids' sake.  I said OKAY, and then I just kept letting the ball roll.  I was pretty far into the process before I felt as though I was actually deciding anything for myself.

Almost everything was a reaction--what he did triggered what I did.  And I realized that that had been my whole life.  Just living a reaction. 

I want to tell you--don't do that, Tremusan!  But, it's like a muscle that needs exercising and, for you right now, the muscle is all weak and shakey.  I will tell you though that if you will exercise it, just a little bit, it will get stronger.  Sometimes it has to be something symbolic. 

You are waiting to see if your NH wants a non-contested, negotiated settlement.  Well, let me tell you about negotiations:  they are very confusing if you don't know what you want.  So, how about sitting down and making a list of what you want.  What do you need to start your life again?  Money for job training?  How much will it take to support you and your children while you are training?  What is the apartment rent in your area?  Do you need a car, or does your car need repairs?  Make a list of things that you can begin now (on his nickle) and what things you will ask for in a negotiated settlement.

Here's the other thing:  even in a negotiated settlement, both people need a lawyer.  If he hires a lawyer, that lawyer will work for HIS best interests.  Your lawyer will work for yours.  You can start interviewing lawyers now, for when he is no longer "confused".  Things will move very fast after that. 

Tremusan, look at his confusion as an "early warning system".  It will give you an opportunity to exercise your initiative "muscles".  Making a list of your needs, interviewing lawyers (the first consultation is often free or very inexpensive)--none of that is aggressive.  But it does exercise your initiative muscle and it will change the way you see yourself.  Waiting to see what he will do next is more damaging to you than you think.  It keeps you in the victim mode and, in that mode, you see yourself as powerless.  And you will let things be done to you if you think you are powerless. 

I imagine that my post sounds very logistical and not about emotions at all.  But it really isnt.  What I've learned in the last year is that I can change my behavior by my thoughts--or I can change my THOUGHTS by my BEHAVIOR.  I found that I could ACT like I had power and then I felt like I had it.  Or I could act like I wasnt afraid, and I would become brave.  It works both ways--and when you are in crisis, sometimes you don't have the luxury of waiting for your feelings to begin the process.  If you are feeling powerless and crazy because he wants a divorce before bed, and to stay married when he wakes up--do something powerful.  Make a list of what YOU want. 

Rant away, Tremusan.  We have all been there.  Like Sea says, you rant until it's all out of your system (and then, sometimes, you rant some more!)  It's much better to rant here than at NH.  Ranting here gives you power for action, ranting to him makes him realize he still has power over your emotions.  So even if he still does, don't let him know that he does.  Rant to us, to your lawyer, to your therapist.  We'll listen!

CB


Tremusan,

I dont think you are married to a N he appears able to have feelings of guilt and empathy.  Usually, they will stick to a path of lesser resistance than trying to work out a divorce.

Therapy101

Honestly...... I struggle with this.  My therapist says it's very difficult for professionals to identify a true N.... so...I can't say I'd bet my life on it.  I just know that he's very controlling, no doubt about that. My Therapist thinks he's one, btw. He's met him on 2 or 3 occassions. N also IS trying to skirt getting the divorce.  He's moving in the direction of getting me to agee to TRY to work things out... only agree on what will go into the divorce papers and not file them.  Give him another chance.  Work out the settlement and put things in my name but NOT actually file the divorce.  Wait till he screws up again, is what i'm supposed to wait on.  It took me 7 years to actually catch him last time.  Maybe he thinks he's smart enough to NOT get caught this time.  Or..... maybe he wants to get me calm and happy with the money in my own name, divorce on the back burner....and have me knocked off?  Heck, he's in love with money enough to do that.  He's never lost anything, really..... I can imagine him doing whatever it takes to get what he wants.  Jjust not entirely sure if he wants his N space back more than his money, lol. 

Here's part of the waiting dilemma.  I can't seem to get a darned temp order to have him removed from the home. He talks and talks and talks!  He talked about just being my boyfriend after the divorce.... living with us and paying hte bills (read that as jerking me around with money) as before.  He talked about whisking me away to Paris and remarrying me.... he was doing lots of internet surfing on cheesey marriage packages during that phase.  He's talked about divorcing but just pretending we're still married.  Now he's talking about this deal where we skip the divorce and just get the settlement out of the way.  All in all.... I feel like a dimbo just listening to him.  But hey..... not supposed to taunt, rage, be sarcastic, annoy or otherwise provoke him, right, lol? 

So in the meantime... I'm feeling like there's a very untrustworthy bloke messing around in my house, eating my food and using my toilets while he chats me up about how he's going to write up an offer to buy something that's not even for sale: /

[Margo]

Margo,

Where there is confusion imo there is abuse.  His inability to stick with a plan indicates to me that he is buying time to see what is the best option for him.  he can turn on a dime, also my experience.  What was written in stone yesterday is of no consequence today if it suits him.  EVERYTHING IS ABOUT HIM.  As for the comments on guilt and empathy........... well I was with an someone who should have gotten an oscar for his performance on guilt and empathy.  I saw through it eventually when I realised that all the fake empathy and fake guilt changed nothing.  The behaviours, once he thought he had conned me AGAIN, returned to absolute N behaviour.

I have no doubt that keeping you exhausted is also part of the plan.  Engaging with them is exhausting your energy is taken up with so many things and also trying to figure out what is going on in his head.  I gave up on this when I learned that what was going on in his head was how could he get the best out of the situation with the least effort.  My guess is that he has a number of plans whizzing around in his brain and he is waiting to see which is the most beneficial to him.  That i believe is the bottom line.

axa

Well.,... fortunetely for me I don't have to guess about his intentions on buying time.  He admits that quite freely..... his attorney isn't so very happy about it either.  He's said from the beginning that he can make this last for years and years.... he's adept at jerking people around in court.  He does it all the time and if there's no one trying to serve him..... he's off his game.  Serve him... as in serve him legal papers, that is.  He was laughing last week about leading a marshall around, while using a fake accent, telling the guy he was from a different country and not the guy the Marshall was looking for.  Talk about balls. 
 
He's all about himself.  The only thing he loves more than sex with gullable easy mark single mothers with divorced parents.... (the easiest of targets) is  money.  Him offering to put half of his PRE marital assets into my name..... along with half the marital assets....  is frightening.  What is he up to?!??!  God help me when he sounds truly believable..... and I'm so damned tired. 

And yes...... he's going to keep jerking everyone around till he gets his way or he's forced into doing what the court mandates.  He's already 2 weeks late turning in his first interrogatories which, btw, he put off in the first place by telling my attorney he'd hand over all the paperwork on his own, lol.  AHHHHH did I hit the roof when I heard my attorney fell for that one.  Ya know..... my N and I can actually laugh at what I call his Werewolfishness.  He finds himself very very amusing and I've always had a pretty twisted sense of humor.  Another question...... is getting me to put the divorce aside for a bit..... enough for him?  Will he stop there for a while if I agree to it?     

[mudpuppy]

Margo,

Here is all I can tell you. I have been stuck in court for five years with a relative. Compromise and negotiation with him is a dead end street of manipulation and endless games of Lucy pulling the football back just as Charlie Brown is about to kick it.

I believe your only choice, and the only attitude which will serve you well, is to put maximum pressure on him at all times with the assumption being that you will be forced to go to the very end of the proceedings in court. Talking to him, negotiating with him and giving him the benfit of the doubt are all seen as weaknesses by him and encourage crooked deals and manipulations.
They are afraid of open court and being exposed and having to present actual evidence. If you focus solely on doing those things one of two things will happen;
1. He'll get scared and come to you with the best deal you will be able to get from him, or
2. He'll stick it out you will have set your best case forward in court and get the best deal you could have from the legal system.

Any other course is playing ball on his home field and will lead to endless manipulations and compromises and bait and switch tactics. If you approach him in good faith to make a deal he'll just back up again and a again until you can't even see where you started from. Your strength is his fear of exposure and open court. Leave your strength and you'll be at his mercy.
That's my opinion and experience.

mud

[Hopalong]

TherapistN or Therapy 101:

Please, but would you mind introducing yourself a bit?

For some reason I just felt very uncomfortable when you popped up in the middle of Margo's detailed discussion of her struggles about divorce.

I'm hopeful it's just paranoia, but I know privacy can be violated here.

TherapistN -- are you Tremusan's husband?

Thank you,
Hopalong

[Margo]

I dont think you are married to a N he appears able to have feelings of guilt and empathy.

True, but many of them routinely fake feelings of guilt and empathy to draw back victims who are attempting to leave.
The test is whether those 'feelings' remain after the target is drawn back in. If they don't, more than likely they were not genuine but only a manipulation.

Usually, they will stick to a path of lesser resistance than trying to work out a divorce.

Again true, but he isn't actually working out a divorce. He's saying he will if it comes to that. The problem is, when it comes to that they never keep their word. Again it seems to me, it's manipulation masquerading as reasonableness.

mud

You guys are gonna love this, lol.  N just phoned..... all cheery and upbeat about his "settlement" agreement.  He quickly glossed over how he'd put the 3 most expensive PRE marital assets into trust for the girls and left out the 4th in the agreement, lol.  I asked him what there was of the PRE marital assets to include.... since he didn't mention any of this when OFFERED THEM UP!  He was offended and let me know I was beginning  to aggravate him. Oh my....... anyone surprised, lol?   I never knew what I wanted etc etc.  He actually raised his voice a bit and I found myself wanting to calm him nad brinng him back to the table.... which is where he wants me.... and I surely don't belong.  

I'm so stunned I can't even form words about how I feel.  If I didn't have some hope that this woiuld just all be over quickly.... I wouldn't be so dissapointed.  I knew it was coming.  I knew he would jump sideways 10 different ways and the dickering would be unbearable and extended.  It's what he's ,made of.......  not what he does.  

When I tried to calmly address teh fact that he offered things he didn't have.... he got on his "Being a mother I thought yoiu'd want your children cared for....." and I cut him off by saying I was still in shock and would be checking to see if he had, indeed put those things into a trust for the girls he couldn't change or screw with.   He assured me he had, which makes sense only if he knew he was going to be offering me this idiot deal.  AHHHHHH>  Circles!  That's going to be my new curse word, lol.  

So......it's official, he's dicking with me.  And.... he also threw in some threats about what I'd end up with if I didn't take this deal.  His need to control is so obviouse.  He was going to give me alimony for 3 years and set the child support at his current underemployed income yada yada yada.  

I cannot tell you how much I dread his coming down on me with dread when I tell him I'll pass.