Did Ns kidnap us? Stockholm syndrome

[Dazed1]

Hi Everybody,

I'm watching the news and reading the newspaper about the 15 year old boy who was recently freed from his kidnapper (Thank God).

Weird thing is that the boy was kidnapped over 4 years ago and during that time, he had many opportunities to escape, but he did not.

Psych experts call this behavior the "Stockholm Syndrome", meaning that the kidnapped victim does not try to escape because the victim creates a relationship and identifies with the kidnapper. 

I believe Psych experts say the Stockholm Syndrome  happens because the victim realizes that the only way for the victim to survive is to 'make nice' with the kidnapper, otherwise the victim could die from malnutrition or the kidnapper could kill the victim or the victim's family.  Also, the victim starts viewing the kidnapper as the victim's provider because the kidnapper is the victim's only link to the outside world and survival - ie:  kidnapper gives victim food, shelter and clothing.

Here's the connection I see between the Stockholm Syndrome and people involved with Ns:

When I would tell my therapist about things that my N parents or N boyfrinds did to me, my T would ask me "why didn't you leave?".  My responses were usually based on my codependence:  ie: "I couldn't leave, the N needed me" or "I was afraid to leave because I was afraid I couldn't make it on my own" or  "I couldn't leave because I thought the N would punish me even greater if I left".

My T reminded me that I always had the ability to leave, walk away.  Sometimes I did and sometimes I didn't.

Seems to me that being involved with an N is related to having the Stockholm Syndrome.

What do you think?

dazed

[CB123]

Dazed,

I think you are 100% right.  I got the same feeling when I watched the stories about the kidnapped boys.

CB

[isittoolate]

Interesting!

I agree as to a point, and with a twist.

I could have left anytime I wanted IF I had an accessible place to go. I had money to do so, but all my furniture was in the house and garage, so that's why I needed a place to go, FIRST.

Had I just left and gone to a motel/hotel (accessible) I am sure I would have been locked out and he would end up with my belongings. I wasn't going to allow that.............

...so I would say to myself, when an apt. wasn't suitable...at least I have a roof over my head & a place for my things until I DO find a place. So in essence I still depended on him? or the house?(He built a ramp to the door)

I understand the concept tho'.

xx
Izzy

[Hopalong]

Wow, Dazed.
That's an amazing (and disturbing) connection. Thank you.

Izzy, sometimes we have to be smart and canny and endure for a while until we can create our own safety. If the abuse isn't physical and isn't unbearable, short-term coping to plan a safe exit is sometimes very sensible.

You landed on your own two feet/wheels, so to speak.
(Hope that was a funny joke, and not offensive!) 

I think you make perfect sense and did the right thing to take care of yourself.

Hops

[isittoolate]

Thanks hops
I was NOT offended. I can take a joke when it's from a friend, and you are a freind.

Yep! I thought I was being 'smart and canny', as you put iit. N never knew where I went when I was looking at an apartment. I lied. God will forgive for those lies, as if N knew, I'd have been locked out.

Actually for my 37 years i don't think anyone has been offensive--oh maybe one Superintendant when I WAS apt. hunting.  and I can even manage some offensive remarks, since I am the 'one who knows'.

This was a two bedroom and I thought , well that will be all right. The second bedroom can be my computer room. Anyway she said that my wheels would bring in a lot of dirt from the parking lot. I said, 'No more than anyone's shoes.' Then I was attempting a turn into the second bedroom (some corridors are like 6 inches wide) and the turning radius was tight. My wheel hit the wall and  whatever she said, I said that the damage deposit takes care of anything like that, and I was the one who would have to live with the marks.

I didn't take that apt.

I take a walk downtown. I take a stroll downtown. I take a roll downtown. I prefer "stroll".  Whatever is comfortable? See what I mean? We say that to blind people. See what I mean? They are expressions in everyday use.

thanx
xxoo
Izzy

[seastorm]

Dazed,

I think there is a syndrome and it is akin to the Stockholm Syndrome. I once heard that battered women usually take at least seven tries before they leave thieir abusive partner. One of the reasons for this is that they lose the ability to be flexible and make plans. Like an elastic band that loses its elasticity. This happens to beated dogs too. There is just no thrusting power left.
Part of the N movie is about isolation and the N knows how to isolate his victim.There is plenty of secrecy and shame too. So much of this is buried beneath denial because of the random postiive conditioning where they seem like they are making your dreams come true.
For me, I didn't know whcih reality was true. If I questioned any behaviour, I was accused of being sick or wrong. One soons becomes conditioned not to question the N. I am an adult and I couldn't stand up to the process. A child would not have a chance.
Even when one gets away there  is still a powerful connection that needs to be worked on continually in order to stay away and not fall back into the thrall of the N. Naming it would help.

Sea storm

[Stormchild]

It's not so easy to leave.

Abused kids who run away often end up living on the street and may resort to drug dealing or prostitution to survive - are they better off then when they were with their abusive families?

Battered women are most at risk of being seriously injured or killed by their batterer when they make the initial move to leave the relationship.

I think on some level most people in abusive situations, especially women in battering situations, do know that they are in constant danger and that trying to escape will put them in even greater danger...

In the area where I live there have been three recent news stories about different women who have been murdered by estranged husbands or boyfriends against whom they had taken out restraining orders!!!

So when a therapist tells someone that anyone can leave a situation anytime they want, I'd say the therapist needs to do some serious reality testing.

It ain't that simple, because if it were, everyone would do it instantly. And a good therapist ought to know that.

[Gaining Strength]

Dazed, I have long believed that growing up with N parents left me experiencing the effects of Stockholm Syndrome.  I also believe that the inability of a therapist to understand can feel abusive as well.  It sounds sort of like what Dr. Phil does to people. 

You may have articulated some of the reasons you didn't leave but I am a firm believer in the power of unconscious mind.  That is where a skilled therapist comes in and helps you unravel the whys.  It is the dark unseen whys that keep us trapped.

Part of what has kept me trapped is that I NEEDED to stay for survival reasons.  That is what happens in part to people with Stockholm syndrome and no doubt that is what happened to that little boy.  I suspect the kidnapper told him that he would kill the boys parents or that the boys parents had told him to care for him or something like that.  What a shame the neighbors didn't report the odd situation to the authorities. - GS

[Overcomer]

I know.  People have said to me, "Why don't you leave your husband?"  And part of me says, "Well, he really isn't that bad and do you really get married just to get fed up and leave?"  Or is it denial?  Or do I actually see things in him that are improving??

Nmom, on the other hand.  When I was a kid, I didn't even realize it was wrong.  I thought I was normal.  I didn't realize when I was in my early 20s and couldn't say no to anyone that there were some deep seeded insecurities set up inside me by my nmom.  She was the one who internalized my need for compliance.  My need to be loved and accepted by doing what she demanded (although I never got it.)

Now after all these years and the realization that things were and are very wrong and I still have a hard time leaving.  I am looking forward to getting a new job and I like the fact that I don't come and go according to nmom's will, but I still feel some kind of dependence on her.  Some kind of a "is it ok if I do this?   And if I do will I have to be racked with guilt....?  Because I will be regardless of if it is right to leave........................because I have internalized that if I go against the nmom's grain, it is wrong!!"

Now imagine you are a kid and some guy says "if you leave, I will find you and kill you and kill your mother and father and sister and brother..........."  You would stay.

But I tell my kids that regardless of what some perpetrator says to you, you need to yell and scream and fight and make a scene, because if you don't, you may end up dead!!!

[Dazed1]

Thanks for your responses everyone.

Now that I think about it, a book I read on Dysfunstional Families did mention Stockholm Syndrome when discussing, I believe, abuse.  Since we have experienced Nism, I wanted to know your reactions to this.

Reading all the responses, I now see the hypothesis of my post:  when you've raised by an N, you’ve been Stockholm Syndromed your entire life, so even if there is a way out, you may not take it. 

CB:
I got the same feeling too.  Since the 15 yr old boy had many opportunities to leave, I thought “we didn’t he leave?” and then thought about Dysfunstional Families and Nism and thought “was this kid molded by N parents, leaving him vulnerable to the Stockholm Syndrome?"

Izzy and Stormchild:
I agree with you both:  One can’t always leave as soon as one wishes to.  One must prepare for leaving, get finances and living arrangements lined up.

You also make me realize that a dependent child cannot leave (obviously), unless he/she runs away, which usually winds up bad for the kid.

But for a young adult who can’t leave an N parent, then the N parent has an emotional/psyc hold on the adult child.  This was what happened to me.

Storm, I like what you said about the T needing to do a reality check.  Guess I felt kinda stupid when my T needled me for not “leaving” my N parents when I was an adult.  In retrospect, I felt as an adult, I had Stockholm Syndrome with my N parents, but I did not know it at that time.  Thought my relationship with N parents was normal.

Seastorm:
Yes, beaten dogs, isolation, secrecy and shame.

“One soons becomes conditioned not to question the N. I am an adult and I couldn't stand up to the process. A child would not have a chance.”    Sea, I think you nailed it.  Even as an adult, I couldn’t stand up to it either.  Thank you for that, Sea.

“Even when one gets away there  is still a powerful connection that needs to be worked on continually in order to stay away and not fall back into the thrall of the N.”   Yup, even when you think you’re free, you may not be free if there’s still a connection, like blood relations.

Gaining Strength:
[b“Dazed, I have long believed that growing up with N parents left me experiencing the effects of Stockholm Syndrome."[/b]  GS, you got it, that's my point.

"I also believe that the inability of a therapist to understand can feel abusive as well.”

Lord, GS, you and Stormy have me really questioning my T regarding the “Why didn’t I leave” question.  I guess she really did not understand Nism and codependence.  If T really understood, she would not have asked the question, right?  Or she would have been more undertsanding as to why I didn't leave and why I continued to participate in the dysfunction. 

Kell:
You make distinctions among leaving a spouse, vs. leaving a parent and whether the ‘victim’ is an adult or child.  And, yet despite these distinctions, it’s still murky.

Kell, you got it, here’s my point:  “I didn't realize when I was in my early 20s and couldn't say no to anyone that there were some deep seeded insecurities set up inside me by my nmom.  She was the one who internalized my need for compliance.”  “Now after all these years and the realization that things were and are very wrong and I still have a hard time leaving.”

Again, thanks everyone for discussing this.  I loved all your ideas.  Great discussion.

dazed

[Dazed1]

Hi CB,

I love your answer!

Problem with me is that I didn't realize that the question was (what should I call it?) problematic, wrong, below the belt.

Dang, when will I be able to discern when someone is being unhelpful or hurtful to me?

dazed

[Hopalong]

HI Dazed,
In my experience it was a shocker to finally, finally meet a T who kenw all about Narcissism and had it on his radar after just a few sessions. He never dismiised it and never had any trouble seeing my issues through that lens. I think many if not most therapists are not well trained about Nism. This T may have been because he does crinimal forensics, hypnosis, etc, serves as an expert witness in trials, etc. I think he may be savvy about Ns because of the people he's studied and worked with...

Hops

[Dazed1]

CB,
I love that:  "pick one"!  You got it: I've heard ALL of them.  Yes, I've got to replace the tapes in my head.
Thank you sweetheart, I too have big hopes for us.

Hops,
You're right.  If/when I go back to therapy, I must find a T who specializes in Nism.  For sure.  Thank you.

dazed

[axa]

Very very interesting stuff.  I think I suffered from the Stockholm syndrome.  I identified with him and somehow a part of me believed that I could not survive without him.  The adult in me knew this was rubbish but I was so linked into him.  We spoke every day if we did not meet, it was a constant drip of contact that I thought I could never do without.  I have had no contact with him for one month and two days WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE....

About the dog.  Well, I recall him telling me I reminded him of a pup who had been beaten, cowering away, mistrustful.  I wonder why?

axa

[Hopalong]

Bravo for you, Axa, so many bravos!

Pup's got teeth now. 

Hops