sad failure feelings

[WRITE]

oh yuk. Kids can be so maddeningly selfish. Hope she wisens up to herself one day soon.

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[Gaining Strength]

Hops, I have not fully read all this thread but I have several thoughts I want to share.  I suspect your daughter is acting like a child (sort of tantruming) because she really needs your mothering.  Because he is an adult now you are hoping for an adult relationship but she is not there yet.  I suspect she is railing with the unconscious need to be taken under wing.  It just happens that what you need and long for is something quite different and much more equal.

Last fall when she was acting much the same you very patiently waited it out and things turned around.  This time I gently suggest that you might consider reaching out to her and probing to help her figure out what is really gnawing at her.  We never get too old to be mothered. - your friend - Gaining Strength

[Hopalong]

Thanks Jac, Storm, TT, GS...

Your kindness really helps. I appreciate your thoughts very much.

I did try some Dandy non-defensive stuff last night but executed it poorly, so we both were left drained and sad. She is SOOO frustrated that I'm living with my mother, yet drills me through about it every time she's near. She angry that she has to negotiate around her grandmother, angry that childhood things are still in boxes...basically angry that I ever moved back here because she finds the town pretentious. (I am happy in this town, it's where I want to live. But my D feels I should've stayed in the city and that my reasons for moving were all stupid. I know she misses that city but she was in college when I decided I wanted to move back to my home town. For my own sake, I'm glad I did. I have a feeling she'd be just as angry with me if I were still there...it's not so much the town as it is her feelings about the family, such as we are.) As to eldercare, it's a choice I made 8 years ago and have (finally) made my peace with. But D can't see that for me now, it's no longer as toxic and debilitating as it was once--because she seems to assume I'm static and unchanged. She also talked about how many things in her own life suck, in the last minute or two. I know that we'll connect again but wish I handled things in a way that would help her. Nothing seems to: no question, no gesture. I actually told her that I felt she had no interest in anything about me except my money.

I wish I COULD take her under wing, GS, but it's kind of like picking up a porcupine that just swallowed a landmine.

Time will ease it. She didn't leave angry but sad. And I felt the same. As the day went on things felt easier. It is a horrible thing to admit but it is so difficult that sometimes I realize I'm not looking forward to being with her. I know I'll be attacked and I am not always able to keep up the Plexiglass.

I do trust in time. And thank you, my friends. Your ears are a comfort.

I'll be letting it go again for now, recover my serenity...

love,
Hops

[Gaining Strength]

I wish I COULD take her under wing, GS, but it's kind of like picking up a porcupine that just swallowed a landmine.

Yikes!!  Oh I must be waxing philosophical!  I have a porcupine too and he's only six.  Last night he was lamenting that at lunch he can't sit with 4K children because he's in 5K.  He want's to sit with a boy named Jeremiah.  So I suggested that we invite Jeremiah to our valentine party.  Then he argued that I didn't know Jeremiah's phone number.  And each time I offered a solution he argued about why that wouldn't work.  Finally - frustrated - I said irritatedly, "Well we just won't invite him them." To which he launch into a crying fit.  I wasn't very sympathetic.  (He is so much like his father.  I didn't know little bitties could argue just for the sake of arguing.)  But I still think if we could love our porcupines from a distance, in our heart, it would help them (and maybe us.)

I know it is difficult and painful AND so disappointing.  She is railing about her own pain while she thinks she railing about you.  Just hope she can figure that out before it takes to much out of you. - your friend - Gaining Strength

[Hopalong]

Hi CB,
You guessed right that I was trying to be cheerful, hadn't dealt with it yet. It caught up with me last night and I cried until 4:30 a.m., emailed a long vent to my minister. It's in the dark of the night that the pain is greatest, when the thought "my only child hates me" gongs in my head, and then I think of how she is (now) and how my Nmother is (always), and how I feel smashed in between them. I even see how my D has many behaviors like my mother's, such as walking in the door talking about herself and what she needs and never, ever, asking me how I am. And, refusing 19 out of 20 requests I make to do anything with me, small or large. My friends are quite busy, so I really do need to get better at meeting my own needs. (I suppose my fantasy of sitting on a barstool waiting to be plucked off but some younger fella looking for an education isn't the right idea?).

I used to refer to my D as "evidence of the god of getting one thing right." To see what we are now, I guess, feels like "evidence that I really have not done anything right." Anything that matters, anyway.

It's just long and hard and lonely when she twists the knife. I know that in time there will be more contact. One tough thing was her pulling the "oversensitive" and "overreacting" labels out of her quiver. I don't think I became a poet by accident, that state of being is wired in. At times in my life I've been a human harp. It's probably taken all my skill to develop as much hide as I have, and compared to many's, it's a thin one with moth holes. And, in many ways, she reminds me more and more of her Dad. Love her? Unconditionally. I am just feeling like a punched-out teddy bear who could use some love herself and doesn't know where to find it. I think one of the worst times, dark of night etc., is when I extrapolate that this kind of loneliness is my permanent lot. I know the cures: help someone else, get out and walk, don't ruminate. I'll do 'em. Feel better this morning, too.

I can't thank every one of you who has eyeballs to read this enough for doing just that.

CB, you ask really good questions:

Do you see anywhere where you need to set a boundary with your daughter?  Even non-N's can get to feeling entitled.  I can get drawn into that if I already feel guilty--and I almost always feel guilty about something.   

   I give her money I truly can't afford. I do feel sorry for her poverty. Still, she did blow her whole inhertance from her Dad at 19 and 20, and ever since, seems to feel I need to make up for it.

Do you feel bad that you couldnt enforce a boundary with her (like when you said you didnt want to talk while you were negotiating the weather)? 

Yes, I do. I think I let them fall because I am so fearful that she will abandon me forever. And that's a terrible reason to let her take advantage of me. But I do. It's a hard habit to stop and I should. I can't "buy" or "fix" or "pay for" her to become appreciative or loyal or kind. If it's not who she's decided to be, so be it. I just have a lot of trouble accepting it. I'd better, though. I want to do it while maintaining some faith in her...and I'm losing that. Maybe in myself, too. You know...just the usual incoherent despair people feel when they're badly hurt. I'm not making good sense.

Or are you just sad that you would have to?

Both. Sad that the old shared-laughing goofy domestic friendly togetherness seems permanently gone. And deeply hurt that she keeps making new declarations about it. Those are the things that hurt me most, her statements. She says it's simply honest and there is no need to ever censor herself, ever. So she says things to me like: I only want a superficial relationship with you. And last night on the phone: I think you are a person with whom I might occasionally blunder into something that we might possibly enjoy together, but that's all.

When she makes rejecting declarations like that, with details, it really, really, really, really kills me. (Well, hyperbole...but I guess the verbal truths hit home. That's where I live, word-land...statements like that linger a long time.)

Anyway, sun's out. I'm still breathing.

Thank you. All of you.

Hops

[pennyplant]

she says things to me like: I only want a superficial relationship with you. And last night on the phone: I think you are a person with whom I might occasionally blunder into something that we might possibly enjoy together, but that's all.

Wow, that is so very hurtful.  No wonder you cried all night.  I would have been devastated.

I don't have an answer for things like that.  We get what we get sometimes with our kids.  They are individuals who came from us but are not necessarily like us.  No guarantees just because we share DNA.  It is especially hard for you since she is your only child.

Methinks she is playing you as far as the money and perhaps some other things too.  Someday you will be ready to say enough is enough.  Someday it will become crystal clear and you will be able to say what needs to be said.  I think that day will come when you believe that you don't deserve to be treated this way.  I think you don't deserve to be treated this way.  But that is not enough.  You have to believe it.  And some day you will.

Love, Pennyplant

[Dazed1]

Hops,

I'm so sorry to hear about your pain.  I understand you are sandwiched between caring for your mother and trying to care for your daughter.

I'm probably going to get flack for this, but here goes:  I do not have children, so I can't speak as a mother.  But, I can speak as a daughter. 

I don't get the impression that your daughter was a 'problem' child or a bad seed.  Perhaps she was, but, I haven't gotten that impression.  I also don't get the impression that she is an oppositional person and has always opposed you and fought you her whole life just for the sake of fighting and opposing.  Again, pehaps she is/was, but, I haven't gotten that impression.

Question:  Do you see some of your past behavior (your behavior when you were voiceless, prior to becoming aware of Nism) contributing to some of the behavior that your daughter currently exhibits?

Has she told you of specific incidents that she recalls from childhood which left a lasting impression of pain in her?  If so, have you had a frank discussion about these incidents with her or do you think she feels voiceless about these past incidents?

So many people on this board post about the rejection they feel when they have tried to discuss with parents past incidents in which they felt their parents left them voiceless.  Is that dynamic occuring with you and your daughter?

Do you think that if you had a talk with her and acknowledged how you participated in creating her voicelessness (assuming that you did participate and this may be an erroneous presumption), she would have a more open and warmer atittude towards you?

I make these assumptions (perhaps erroneously) because I have learned that voicelessness, N behavior and FOO dysfunction is transmitted generationally.  So, I'm thinking that perhaps dysfunctional behavior and coping mechanisms were passed on to you by your mom and therefore perhaps you may have passed on them on to your daughter.

Love,
dazed

[WRITE]

each time I offered a solution he argued about why that wouldn't work.  Finally - frustrated - I said irritatedly, "Well we just won't invite him them." To which he launch into a crying fit.  I wasn't very sympathetic.

Good! Eric Berne calls this a game of 'yes, but...' and the only way not to play it is disengage. I guess it's sort-of appropriate in a 6 year old and not in an adult though!

I am so fearful that she will abandon me forever.

forever is an awfully long time. Feeling abandonned is horrible, but even if she does wander off as she has before, she comes back. You can love her from a distance and wait? This is where I usually pray when there's nothing else can be done...

she says things to me like: I only want a superficial relationship with you.

that's such an emotionally-charged thing to say especially to a parent. Not the kind of thing I'd say to someone who I thought of superficially.

You are so loving and kind it must be really hard for you to take this hurtful behaviour and especially as a parent, we always wonder if we should be doing anything and feel responsible...but she is old enough to start learning from her mistakes.

When we hurt people they are angry with us and withdraw from us and make it clear they will not hang around to hear such things...so do that. It doesn't even have to be emotional- just say 'oh I'll talk to you when you're in a better mood' or 'I don't like to be treated this way' or whatever feels right and let her walk away.

Whatever happened in the past is in the past and maybe it's time to draw a line under that. Don't tell her she's like her dad or even think that...she's not her dad and you're both adults. You don't have to be harshly attacked just because you're her mother, she doesn't have the right to attack you because of the past.

I'm sorry you are having such a difficult time, it's time for some self-care maybe right now.

What's happening with your work and your mum? ( sorry, so out of date with threads if you have posted about this elsewhere )

[Hopalong]

Hi Dazed,
I have apologized to my daughter many times for the choices I made (especially my second marriage) that contributed to her stifling. I haven't figured out how to make the other apology, which is to express how sorry I am that I let her be exposed so much to my mother when she was a child...how I didn't know what Nism was, nor how to fight off the influence on her. I let her down terribly....

I am sure a lot of what I've done has helped mess her up. Lately, it feels just like a collision of personalities. She is drawn to the dark (serial killer stories) and brutal (boxing matches) and I am trying to go toward light. It's really hard for us to find a place to meet in the middle...

I have been a crappy, anxious listener...when she begins to rant her voice grates and I feel as though I'd rather jump through glass than listen. That's awful, but true. So my task now is to maximize my listening in every way I can. I have a lot of trouble figuring out the difference between being tolerant and being a doormat. If I don't accept everything she says as accurate, she goes ballistic. Sometimes I feel she's insisting that I interpret her in a certain way.

Well, it's complicated, and exhausting. I will rest now and let it settle and see what comes up. I do feel good about one exchange we had...when she was accusing me of being "over' sensitive and I told her to tell someone that is to invalidate them. And that I am made that way and am not ashamed of it.

I guess sometimes things are planted that don't ripen for a long time. I'll keep the faith.

Even if I'm responsible for all of it, I can't take on any more guilt or I'd sink.

Thanks,
Hops

[Hopalong]

Thank you Write, so much.
I'm really touched by your kindness. (Especially after I just put you and the bf under my opinionated microscope! Thanks for tolerating that.)

One thing really hit me in your post, the simple assertions you suggested.
Those simple statements that declare I have a right to retreat and don't like being mistreated.

I realized just then that I'm STILL voiceless in a way, because I don't even risk saying that!!!!
I retreat but silently, without telling her how I'm feeling, until it's built up for a few days.
That's stoooooopid.

Thanks, Write, for another "Write right insight."

xxoo,
Hops

[Dazed1]

Hi Hops,

Maybe when you feel strong enough, you could have one more talk with her about how the influence of your mom played into your relationship with your daughter.  At least then you'd know that you've done everything you can do.  Whether or not she agrees with you is almost secondary; at least she will hear your words and she will know that you are trying to make the relationship right.  Just a thought.

Hops, don't be so hard on yourself for letting her down.  You did the best you could do.  Letting others down and making mistakes is part of the human condition.  Forgive yourself and maybe some of the guilt will be released.  None of us are Superwoman, you're human and fallible, so please forgive yourself and try to dump the guilt.  The guilt does neither you nor your daughter any good.

"I have a lot of trouble figuring out the difference between being tolerant and being a doormat. If I don't accept everything she says as accurate, she goes ballistic. Sometimes I feel she's insisting that I interpret her in a certain way."    The mother-daughter relationship is a super charged relationship and can be very prickly. 

As far as where tolerance starts and door mats begin, how about using some boundaries and listening to your inner voice?  If she starts to rage, try telling her calmly (and I know this is sssooooo hard) that you are happy to speak with her, but you will no longer accept her screaming at you and that when she is calm and ready to talk (not yell), then you two can finish your discussion.  If she persists in screaming, walk away.  Either she will stop her ballistic ways or she won't, but you will feel more grounded for enforcing your boundaries.

I know that it is so hard to change the dynamics of a relationship which one has had for one's entire life and it's even harder when the relationship is mother and child, let alone mother and daughter.

Hang in there and best of luck.

Love,
dazed

[seastorm]

Dear Hops,

I am so sorry to hear about your troubles with your daughter and how hurt and helpless you feel in all this
I have a daughter too and she will be 30 in a few weeks. I love her to bits and she is very difficult. She gets angry at me at the drop of a hat. Things have been very bad for the last three years. Finally, I said that I was willing to listen to every resentment that she had toward me. I really had to hear a lot. Some of it I knew about and some was unexpected. What really hurt her the most was her feeling of being dispensible and pushed aside for other people. Two boy friends were the main problems. She was deeply hurt underneath the anger. She was angry, confused, hurt, disappointed by my passivity with bossy, mean spirited ExN.
I could hear her pain and I have to admit that I could barely stand it. I swore to myself that I would listen to her and not say one defensive thing. This was very difficult. I didn[t interupt her either. It took me years to do this.  I was afraid of what I would hear.
I did not shelter her from life and I invited bad people into our little world. It broke her heart.
She was very grateful that I listened finally.  I was grateful that she was willing to forgive me.
She is not stuck in the angry eight year old space now and it has been back to being friendly and laughing together.  She told me she missed that too.
 Hops, I know that you are one of the funniest, most decent, best people ever.  Your daughter is really angry at you and punishing you big time.  She told you grandma bugs her and she means it.  I wonder what the whole story is there. Let her talk. Maybe you can compromise on the grandma thing.

Whatever happens I know how it hurts when your beloved daughter is angry at you. It is so hurtful.  She also sounds like a naughty puppy. There is plenty going on there and she knows what to say to provoke you.  Be gentle and loving with yourself. She is coming from a very young place and striking out.  You are standing tall. You did the best you could.
Forgive yourself.  And set a few guidelines.She is sort of kicking you around.  I do this with my kids. We agree on no put downs, one person speaks at a time, everybody gets to have a say. This helps a lot.

All the best to you Hops
You are such a strong, beautiful and matriarchal voice here. I guess even eagles need help sometimes.

Sea storm

[Hopalong]

PP,
Your empathy was pure balm. Just having you say "no wonder you cried" was very healing for me. As though you were saying, you're no emotional mutant, it's okay to feel hurt. Thank you, dear. and your suggestion that I'll come to the place where I draw the line, that it will come...thank you for that too.

CB,
Thanks for your compassion and for the challenge. That's a helluva a challenge. To set the boundaries as a parting parenting gift...and I thank you. You're right about the risks, of her anger or further withdrawal, but you're right about what is important to teach her, too. I don't like it that she came up here, flayed me good, and left with a fistful. Thank you for spelling out, basically, that "if you're mean to me you don't get rewarded for it." I don't want to manipulate her (mom's been a master teacher) but I do want to say something straightforward like that. I'll try to keep it simple. Pull away when she's ranting (she usually doesn't yell or scream, it's just a very intense voice...of course, to SensiHops, it's a siren). And be clear that in future, cash I don't have is cash she doesn't get. She was very sweet in an email when she got home and said "thank you for everything", so I think she may at least have heard that part.

Dazed, thank you. I think she and I will talk about her grandmother for a long time, and I DO need to say somehow that I truly regret not sheltering her more from her. The difficult part was, the healthiest piece of my mother loves my D, and my D also loves her (and hates her). As a little girl she spent a great deal of time with her grandmother, who paid for her private school, played piano with her, etc. She also had the love of her grandfather. He was sweet to her but not terribly strong in his influence, because my mother was so overinvolved. I was fairly worn out from single parenting and working fulltime, so I accepted too much of their help. It contributed to too much passivity in accepting my mother's vision of how my little girl should be raised. I know it, and I can admit it to my daughter. I don't blame her for being a little crazed by me living with her grandmother now, and I wrote her that after she left. I just told her I was very sorry it was so horrible for her here, and I really do understand her reasons. (That said, she doesn't need to start a flame war against her grandmother every time she comes.) I can tell she also hates my diminishment in my mother's home...D remembers me as more vital, more laughing, more free, when we lived on our own in a big city, had friends in, etc. (Hmm. That tells me she's also upset because she does love me. Wow. That helps.)

Thanks, all of you, very much.
Happy Sundays to each and every one, or at least peaceful ones.

love,
Hops

[Hopalong]

Sea,
You've walked in my galoshes. Thanks so much for sharing your story of similar issues with your own D. My daughter also witnessed my hurt with several Nbfs. And your dialogues with her encourage me too.

Your kind words about me lifted me up. Your bravery in listening to every single resentment your D carried is awesome, and inspiring, and no wonder she respects you and has come closer to you now. Good for you, and thanks for the inspiration.

I find it awkward to agree with my D because in the very short term, at least, I can't leave a 96-year-old to fend for herself. So I am going to see it through. I told my D that as far as her grandmother goes, I'm fulfilling a promise. And I am...I was so horrifed by nursing homes that I promised both her and my dad that as long as it was physically and financially possible to keep them at home, I would. When/if that changes, we'll do what we have to do.

So I wrote D that I've made my peace with it and will see it through, and that although I've paid a price, I have also learned irreplaceable things. (She knows about the Nism discovery. I think though, that since she's so seldom here, she doesn't see the liberating side of my learning. She assumes I'm stuck because things still look the same on the surface.)

The other side of it is that my D has also paid a price. Losing the sense of our free, fun home as we used to share (after my divorce from the artist, who was a crappy husband and stepfather and really oppressed her). She and I did have a lot of fun when we were on our own together, and she missed coming home to JUST ME. Ever since I moved, she's had to come home to her grandmother too, and she has made clear that this was not a happy thing. I understand completely.

So, that's what happened. And now it's done, she's 26, and I'm not going to move house right now so that when she comes home every 3 or 4 months for a weekend she'll like it better. But one day soon, she'll find it is a different home she's coming to, with pyschological space for us both.

Wearing myself out here, but thank you again Sea. Your kind words really touched me. And I loved hearing about your healing changes with your daughter.

love
Hops

[Leah]

For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.Ephesians 2:10

God is a very capable craftsman. God's workmanship is of the highest quality.

We are God's workmanship. We are the art of a competent Creator.

Notice in this text that our creation 'in Christ Jesus' means that we are competent as well. We are like our Creator in that we have been created 'to do good works'.  God who is capable of good works made us to be capable of doing good works as well.

This is quite a contrast to 'you can't do anything right'.

In dysfunctional families and institutions people learn to doubt their competence. This doubt leads many people to work harder and harder to demonstrate their abilities.

In dysfunctional systems, however, no matter how hard we try, we can't try hard enough. We learn that our problem is not that we are human and occasionally make mistakes but that we are incompetent people. We learn that we are flawed in a most basic way. No matter how compulsively we try, we can't ever get it right.

This text is an affirmation of our competence, of our importance in God's plans. God affirms us by saying "there are good things for you to do, and I believe you can do them".   Notice that the text does not say that we need to do good works to earn God's love or to win God's approval or that we have to do the work perfectly or compulsively.   What is does say is that God sees each of us as capable of good works.   God invites us to participate in the creative, redemptive work that God is doing in the world.

God sees us as capable.
You are competent, God.
Your works are good works.
It amazes me that you see me as competent.
Thank you for believing in me.
Help me to trust your words of affirmation.
Help me to find joy in doing good.

Amen

Copyright 1991 Dale and Juanita Ryan


That helped me forgive myself and 'let go' - stop looking back, wishing I had known then what I know now, and, the I could have done things better for my son, kept him away from under nmother's influence etc etc etc.

Love & Blessings to all.

Peaceful Sunday thoughts.

Leah xx

Thank you