C0-NARCISSISM

[Overcomer]

My grumpiness comes from PMS, my daughter losing her tights before a show choir competition, having to get up at 4:45 am on a Saturday, talking with my nmom and not hearing from the people at the new job I want...................

[Leah]

((((( Kell )))))

Thats the ultimate in endurance testing

Love & Hugs for you

Leah xxx

[Gaining Strength]

Okay - guilty of blatant repetitiveness

The critical issue here is that the child is unconsciously attempting to not submit to the parent’s definition of him despite his inner compulsion to comply with the parent’s needs. He therefore acts in a selfdefeating manner in order to try to maintain a sense of independence. (If the pressure for compliance had not been internalized, the child would be free to be successful despite the parent’s tendency to co-opt his achievements.)

Here I am.  This is me.  I keep being drawn to this.  I clearly understand that my way out is to move my focus away from this but I think I must get what is still unconscious about this into the conscious.  Can anybody flesh out this paragraph for me so I can unlock this.   How does acting in a selfdefeating manner help maintain a sense of independence? - GS

[Hopalong]

yesyesyesyes GS. Thank for for persisting with this one.
It's the same thought that was so huge to me from your other thread.

I can only repeat what dawned on me there, but I think it's one of those things I need to repeat to myself and to anyone who'll listen a thousand times. So thanks again for the chance:

I believe that because my parents were sooooooooooooooo rigid and controlling in their orderliness that I was nearly smothered. Emotionally and spiritually.

So I create and maintain DISORDER because in that unconsciously-logical way, the wonderful but wacky-intuitive way the subconscious works, I feel...in an UNconscious way...as though I can breathe as long as I maintain the disorder in my life.

CONsciously, I know it is not true. But I didn't have such a crisp and clear understanding until your earlier post.

Order = overwhelming feelings of being smothered, my spirit dying
Chaos = overwhelming EXTERNAL mess, but a livelier spirit inside

So now, my job is to create order for NEW REASONS. That aren't rigidity, perfectionism, etc....but SELF-NURTURE.

(Do all the caps help?  ) Thank you again and please please do keep digging on this one.

And anybody else.

Really, GS. This is SUCH an important one for me and I am very very grateful to you. I hope we can bounce it around and help each other...

love,
Hops

[Toodles]

Hi,

I am new to the site but have just learned what narcissism really is and just in the nick of time - maybe...

the article was so enlightening to me and helpful - I have had a very trying involvement with someone for years - a former therapist who I became friends with and who I fell in love with - I now know what is really going on there with her

I know now she is narcissistic too, I am probably the co-N or maybe its the other way around - my mother was a mess, physically, emotionally and verbally abusive, and she would never admit any wrongdoing or harm to me so I accomodated myself to her over time and eventually in my whole life

The meaning of "acts in a self-defeating manner in order to maintain a sense of independence" is one I have come across before - it implies that even though you are not submitting to the parents definition it is a reaction to something, and not an action taken of one's own accord - therefore that manner iof acting is not really a valid point of personality or desire or independence - it is a kneejerk reaction to someone else's descriptin of who you are

kneejerk reactions are not valid responses to others

Toodles

[Gaining Strength]

I was writing a long repolly and then --- accidently hit the backspace and POOF!!!!!  Gone - in a blink.   &*^%$&*

OK - i'm going to try this blankety blank reply again.

I think I'm getting it.  I get the "knee jerk" part and I get the choosing something "different" rather than choosing "who I am."  I want to try to apply some specifics from my life, the way that Hops did. 

I get that my father has some to keep me cowering, under submission.  It is so hard to get the right words.  But I am coming to understand that he absolutely does not want me to have anything, to be successful, to be happy and on and on.  I would no more say that anywhere but here.  I'm not sure that even here I can really put it out there in a way that makes sense.  But I say is again on Wednesday when we went to dinner to celebrate my father's birthday.  For the sake of brevity - he picked on my little boy without mercy.  We were on time but, as usual, my father was not.  By 8:00, we had been there an hour and the food was not served yet.  It was my little one's bedtime and he was hungry, plus he is diagnosed with ADD.  But then any child might be antsy trying to be still and quiet in a fancy restaurant for over an hour with no food.  My father made him come sit beside him and then with clenched jaw rage tried to control him.  I told my son to come with me (to go outside until dinner was served) and even then my father tried to stop me.  When dinner was finally served, my little boy and I came in and I moved my son's place away from beside my father who tried to force my little boy next to him so he could basically abuse him.  I know that he picked on him in part bacause none of the rest of us will anylonger allow him to to that to us but I also believe that part of it was aimed at me - to put his thumb on me and keep it there - to just screw me into the earth.  And that is what I think I have internalized. 

I think that drive to have parental love is sooooo great that I am willing to sacrifice my own self in order to have it.  Of course there are several problems with that.  Number one - it's backwards - the parent is normally the one willing to sacrifice their life for that of their offspring and number two, the sacrifice doesn't win the prize - it's a hoax!!! and number three - who's gutsy enough to admit they have fallen for a self-defeating hoax for their whole life - that's humiliating and almost self-annihilating.  And that's just it - ALMOST self-annihilating.  The real self-annihilating things has been unconsciously refusing to give up on being squashed just so that I could be accepted.  Just the way my mother still thinks it's funny that at 4 or 5 I chose to be tied up to a tree so that I could "play" with my older brothers.  Somehow my mother just doesn't GET the self-annihilation  and the despair woven all into that experience.  I am sad and I am embarrassed and something much more than I can put words to  - that I have allowed and continue to allow myself to go down in order to be allow some crumbs.  But I do get it and I am very fortunate to have some sense of who I am and what I want.  I give thanks to 20+ years of therapy and who knows how much $ for helping me figure those things out. 

Now it's time to deal with the "cockroach" effect of being my father's daughter.  And I guess the question is "Will I CHOOSE to continue to be a cockroach or will I find a way to claim my heritage as a child of God."  And of course I choose the latter.  Now I supose it is time to find my way out of this misery. 
-
Thanks for your help.  This is a really helpful thread - Co-narcissism - GS

[moonlight52]

Oh my goodness GS every word I soooooooooooo understand .Oh the manipulation for the sake of control and ego.
When I was a child I was tricked into an underground well with a metal lid thingy  kids can be mean.
Well I do not see any evidence of said insect behavior except by n parent GS none at all .

The child even an adult child does not and is not required to be consumed all their life with the feelings of their parent that is why it hurts.
and you understand this so well...

I know how much it hurts

love to you GS

Your sweetie boy has a very very good mom

[Overcomer]

Boy, I can totally relate to begging for crumbs.  My mother often uses the term "knee jerk" when referring to me.  Although I see the behavior in her as well.  I am expecting some kind of knee jerk reaction out of her since I point blank told her I would not do it anymore (and that is work with her.....)  She will see it as a betrayal and try to run or shame me into staying.  She already used my youngest daughter as guilt.

Anyway, trying to verbalize it is hard for me as well.  It is not as though my nmom doesn't want me to be successful, it's just that she wants me to live my life according to her will.  I think she thinks if I DO live it according to her will that somehow I will be happy.  But the bad part is even if I tried to do my life as she would want me to, I wouldn't do it right.  That is why in my earlier days I couldn't make a decision without her.  I was so afraid of making a "wrong" decision...............well, I knew she would think it was wrong.............and I couldn't handle the shame and guilt feelings.

But when I was younger I was a hell raiser!!  But I would do everything to cover it up to her.  Brush my teeth.  Visine.  Elaborate lies.  Perfume.  Change of clothes.  But I HAD to be the opposite of her but I couldn't let her know I was doing it.......does that make sense????

[Dazed1]

Hi GS,

The critical issue here is that the child is unconsciously attempting to not submit to the parent’s definition of him despite his inner compulsion to comply with the parent’s needs. He therefore acts in a selfdefeating manner in order to try to maintain a sense of independence.

You asked "Can anybody flesh out this paragraph for me so I can unlock this.   How does acting in a selfdefeating manner help maintain a sense of independence?"

Here's what I think:

..... his inner compulsion to comply with the parent’s needs.    Let's start by defining what is this inner compulsion to comply with the parent’s needs.?

I interpret the phrase parent's needs as meaning that the child wants to please the parent.

As children, we are born with an innate need to please our parents.  When we are very young children, our parents are like Gods to us and therefore, we want to please them.  Additonally, as the child becomes a bit older, the child becomes aware that the child depends on the parent for survival:  food, clothing, shelter.  Thus, the child believes that if the parent is unhappy with the child, then the parent could deprive the child of the means for survival (food, clothing, shelter) and therefore, the child could die.  So, as young children, we want to comply with our parent's needs (ie: please them) because we see our parents as being God like and that includes the ability to kill us by depriving us of food, clothing &  shelter.

I also think that the child has an inner compulsion to comply with the parent's needs because the child believes that if the child pleases the parent, then the parent will love the child.

So, the inner compulsion to comply with our parent's needs is our innate desire to please our parents because as very young children, we viewed them as being God like, realized our survival depended on them and because we believed that if we pleased them, they would love us.

Why would the child  not submit to the parent’s definition of him?  I think that the child would not want to submit to the parent's definition of him due to ( I believe it's called) Individuation.  This is the stage where the child learns that the child is separate from the parent and that the child has his own unique personality.  The child realizes that the child is different from the parent; the child matures and is becoming his own person.  The child also learns that the parents are not God and that the child will eventually be able to survive on his own.

So, as the child matures, feels more independent (less dependent on the parent) and becomes his own person with his own thoughts, the child then begins to challenge the parent, including the way in which the parent has "defined" the child.  Since the child now has his own thoughts, the child may reject the way the parent defines the child.

He therefore acts in a selfdefeating manner in order to try to maintain a sense of independence.  The method chosen by the child to demonstrate that the child is independent of the parent and that the child is his own unique person may be detrimental to the child.  For example, if the parent told the child not to smoke pot, the child may choose to smoke pot as a means of defying the parent: ie: "You (mom & dad) can't tell me what to do, I'll do what I want and I'll make my own decisions" even if those decisions are detrimental to me. 

In essense, a child may choose to demonstrate his independence from his parents and reject his parents by cutting off his nose to spite his face.  So, the child may wind up engaging in behavior that is harmful to the child as a means of declaring his independence from his parents.  The child may do this unconsciously and not be aware that his behavior is his unconscious attempt to reject the way that his parents have defined him.

That's my take on this paragraph.

love,
dazed

[Overcomer]

In essense, a child may choose to demonstrate his independence from his parents and reject his parents by cutting off his nose to spite his face.  So, the child may wind up engaging in behavior that is harmful to the child as a means of declaring his independence from his parents.  The child may do this unconsciously and not be aware that his behavior is his unconscious attempt to reject the way that his parents have defined him.


This is what I did when I married my husband.................(even though I was 42........far cry from a child....)  My nmom was trying to fix my former boyfriend for me and I resented the intrusion for a second time in my life (she tried to fix my first husband...............not fixable...) that I met my husband and was married in six months.  I quit my job and started working at a new job right after the honeymoon.  The new job was like prison and for those of you who know my story, my h is a raging alcoholic. 

All in the name of trying to get my independence from HER!!!  NMOM!!

[Dazed1]

Oh ((((((Kell)))))))),

These realizations hurt so much.

Is hubby going to AA?  How about alanon? 

Found a web site and thought of you.  I was googling and came accross this:
http://www.umass.edu/fambiz/relatedlist.htm

It's a web site devoted to family business and one topic is "Still Adult Children After All These Years".  Thought you could relate!!!

Love,
dazed

[Hopalong]

Morning, GS,
What a brave post. Thank you for sharing the restaurant story. It's telling to me that you removed your son from your father's vicinity. That's your true self. Your boy brings out your courage. I hope you do better than I did in removing your child from your Nparent's influence. Poor little guy. It's horrible to be small and feel hated by an adult. You don't know why their teeth are gritted but you "know" it's all your fault.

I don't think you'll let him internalize the crumb-seeker though. You know what the cost is. I think you're going to be liberating yourself and your child from them, GS. I really do. I don't know when I've heard a more determined voice.

What amazes me is that when you determine to love yourself no matter what, it has a ripple effect. Even small daily choices pile on and pile on and pretty soon you really do have a foundation for a new life.

Thank you for all you've done to help me separate the crumbs from the healthy choices. I'm still working on it too and your persistence has inspired me repeatedly. Another candle for us in church today...today will be a day that I take the paperwork and reduce it to what it really is: pieces of paper. These are pieces of paper with words on them. And I will pick each one up and look at it and put it in the correct folder (another piece of paper).

Did I ever tell you about my spermatazoa filing cabinet?  One happy memory from my 2nd marriage to the artist. I decided that a plain gray filing cabinet would simply not do, I wanted my home office to be beautiful. So we hauled it outside, bought spray paint, and painted sort of blobs-with-trickles (hence the name) in a flowing pattern down the sides. It actually turned out gorgeous!

I dream of painting the house's interior. Any house. Those daydreams bring so much pleasure that I should add them to my motivation to clear the clutter and tame the papers.

Happy Sunday, GS. I will light a candle for us and for all the paper-mountain warriors out there.

love,
Hops

[Leah]

For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.Ephesians 2:10

God is a very capable craftsman. God's workmanship is of the highest quality.

We are God's workmanship. We are the art of a competent Creator.

Notice in this text that our creation 'in Christ Jesus' means that we are competent as well. We are like our Creator in that we have been created 'to do good works'.  God who is capable of good works made us to be capable of doing good works as well.

This is quite a contrast to 'you can't do anything right'.

In dysfunctional families and institutions people learn to doubt their competence. This doubt leads many people to work harder and harder to demonstrate their abilities.

In dysfunctional systems, however, no matter how hard we try, we can't try hard enough. We learn that our problem is not that we are human and occasionally make mistakes but that we are incompetent people. We learn that we are flawed in a most basic way. No matter how compulsively we try, we can't ever get it right.

This text is an affirmation of our competence, of our importance in God's plans. God affirms us by saying "there are good things for you to do, and I believe you can do them".   Notice that the text does not say that we need to do good works to earn God's love or to win God's approval or that we have to do the work perfectly or compulsively.   What is does say is that God sees each of us as capable of good works.   God invites us to participate in the creative, redemptive work that God is doing in the world.

God sees us as capable.
You are competent, God.
Your works are good works.
It amazes me that you see me as competent.
Thank you for believing in me.
Help me to trust your words of affirmation.
Help me to find joy in doing good.

Amen

Copyright 1991 Dale and Juanita Ryan


That helped me forgive myself and 'let go' - stop looking back, wishing I had known then what I know now, and, the I could have done things better for my son, kept him away from under nmother's influence etc etc etc.

Love & Blessings to all.

Peaceful Sunday thoughts.

Leah xx

Thank you

[Gaining Strength]

My father is like a ing in a once replendid palace.  Rather than let the kingdom and palace be refurbished and kept up he refuses to pass the sceptor on down the line but insists that the palace and kingdom crumble around him.  Al the while blaming his offspring and demanding that they stay beside him while the enemy invade and destroy everything around.  The Narcissism is so great that he would rather everything be destroyed rather than passed on.  The only way to survive is for his children to rise up and fight the enemy and restore the kingdom - against their father's will.  The kingdom will not be lost by doing so but saved.

There are  many  behaviors that can stem from
narcissistic concerns, such as a concern with
one’s own physical and social image, inter-
personal rigidity, an insistence that one’s
opinions and values are “right,” and a tendency
to be easily offended and take things personally

I took on my parents values and have waited like a servant for them to let me "live into them."  When they abandoned them or moved on to something else I have been so bewildered.  I have never accepted the truth above - that all this splendor was for them only.

Children of narcissists tend to feel overly
responsible for other people. They tend to
assume that others’ needs are similar to
those of their parents, and feel compelled to
meet those needs by responding in the
required manner. They tend to be unaware
of their own feelings, needs, and experience,
and fade into the background in relationships.

I have for years known that I did this.  I felt responsible to people I didn't even know.  And though in very recent years this is not as controlling I am not sure I know fully what my own feelings and needs are.  But I suspect part of the reason I haven't opened up to a relationship romantically or with friends is that I did not want to "fade into the background" again.  I think this as something to so with the issue about responsibility Hops.  I think this has something to do with why I hate having to take care of things that I simply must.

To the extent that parents are narcissistic,
they are controlling, blaming, self-absorbed,
intolerant of others’ views, unaware of their
children’s needs and of the effects of their
behavior on their children,

Even knowing that this is true, I now believe that unconsciously, internally I have refused to accept that my parents did not care about my needs and are willing to subvert my needs and my child's needs for their own - like Kronos who ate his own children so then would not become king.  But I witness this every day with my mother who has several millions of dollars and I don't have enough to fix my heat in my house or buy a new car or properly care for my son.  She has just yesterday invited my son and me to go to South Africa with her in March while I cannot afford to take my son even to the beach.  But poor pitiful me no more.  I have the key to the prison door.  My fear and paralysis has been real but Voicelessness is shining the light on the key so that I can use it.  I have held this role because something very corrupt in my psychological development with N parents demanded it for survival.  But I am past survival and must take claim of my rightful place without their approval.  Even now as I write that I feel a sadness and that is clearly part of the problem.

These traits will lead the
parent to be very intrusive in some ways,
and entirely neglectful in others.

This is part of the very big problem.  This is the mechanism that entrapped me.  It is like alternating between feast and famine.  I have been completely controlled by waiting for the feast during the famine.  I believe this is how Stockholm sydrome gets its power.  The feast after a long famine creates an endebtedness and the famine creates a powerlessness. Powerlessness - Endebtedness  A powerful cycle when repeated over and over.

The children are punished if they do not respond
adequately to the parents’ needs. This
punishment may take a variety of forms,
including physical abuse, angry outbursts,
blame, attempts to instill guilt, emotional
withdrawal, and criticism. Whatever form it
takes, the purpose of the punishment is to
enforce compliance with the parents’ narcissistic needs.

Punished into submission.  Punished into famine.  No wonder neither of my parents have done anymore than give me dribbles of money when the well ran dry.  It is so obvious.  As I look back over my history - each and every time I almost broke free they reeled me in by offering something that I gave up myself in order to have.  Now the "play" is so clear to me.  And now we get to the final "clink", the shutting of the prison door.

The critical issue here is that the child is unconsciously attempting to not submit to the parent’s definition of him despite his inner compulsion to comply with the parent’s needs. He therefore acts in a selfdefeating manner in order to try to maintain a sense of independence. (If the pressure for compliance had not been internalized, the child would be free to be successful despite the parent’s tendency to co-opt his achievements.)

Now it is clear to me why there is so very much fear in "breaking out."  Now I understand how I am imprisoned.  I know this will help me plan my escape.  This has been an invaluable posting.  It came when I really could see and I hope I have the strength and courage to find my way out.


Hops - do you think part of the paper mess is a deep desire for your father to rescue you from all the damage your mother wreaked?

GS

[Leah]

GS,

It is so very uplifting to see, and read, such insightful and affirming truth, that you have realised and just shared here.

Remember you are not alone as you walk free, you have love and support here, and, above all else, you have your faith in Him.
Keep your eyes and heart fixed upon the knowledge that you have received in your heart, as you walk trusting in Him.

Thank you for your words of encouragement to me.

Love & blessings, in my thoughts and prayers.

Leah xx