Author Topic: questions on narcissism  (Read 8023 times)

Toodles

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questions on narcissism
« on: February 20, 2007, 05:28:45 PM »
can someone explain what narcissism is and how to recognize it? 

shouldnt narcissists be loved too?  I mean how can we condemn them for not being able to control themselves, when we dont always control ourselves?

from the little I know of narcissism, it is just another illness like any other, only insidiously painful to have to bear because of the lack of understanding

I think I suffer from this maybe, dont know, but have same issues of self-expression, contradictory behaviour, antagonistic attitude at times, frustration leading to inabiity to express oneself...

toodles


isittoolate

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Re: questions on narcissism
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2007, 05:52:39 PM »
Hi Toodles

To explain it will take a long time

I suggest you read and re-read from those who know. It is best to Google something like this.

http://samvak.tripod.com/

.........maybe you are if you have to ask a question that you can Google for yourself?
........maybe you are not if you think you are!!!!!

Happy Reading
Izzy

Lupita

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Re: questions on narcissism
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2007, 06:27:05 PM »
Narcissistic personality disorder
Classification & external resources 
Narcissus, the mythical Greek youth, after whom narcissism is named, as depicted in John William Waterhouse's "Echo and Narcissus," ca. 1903. Narcissus might have been diagnosed as a classic, somatic narcissist.
ICD-10 F60.8
ICD-9 301.81
Narcissistic personality disorder (NPD), a term first used by Heinz Kohut in 1971[1], is a form of pathological narcissism acknowledged in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders in 1980, in the edition known as DSM III-TR. Narcissistic personality disorder is characterized by extreme focus on oneself, and is a maladaptive, rigid, and persistent condition that may cause significant distress and functional impairment.

Contents [hide]
1 Classification
1.1 ICD-10 Criteria
2 Epidemiology
3 Causes
4 Signs and symptoms
5 Diagnostic criteria
6 Prevalence, age, and gender features
7 Clinical experience
8 True self, false self
9 Treatment and prognosis
10 See also
11 References
12 Further Reading
13 External links
 


[edit] Classification
DSM-IV divides personality disorders into three clusters based on symptom similarities[2]:

Cluster A (paranoid, schizoid, schizotypal): odd or eccentric disorders
Cluster B (antisocial, borderline, histrionic, narcissistic): dramatic, emotional or erratic disorders
Cluster C (avoidant, dependent, obsessive-compulsive): anxious or fearful disorders
Narcissistic personality disorder is a "cluster B" personality disorder.

The ICD-10 (International Classification of Mental and Behavioural Disorders, published by the World Health Organisation in Geneva 1992) regards narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) as "a personality disorder that fits none of the specific rubrics". It relegates it to the category known as "Other specific personality disorders", which also includes the eccentric, "haltlose", immature, passive-aggressive, and psychoneurotic personality disorders.


[edit] ICD-10 Criteria
While the ICD-10 does not specifically define the characteristics of this personality disorder, it is classified in the category "Other Specific Personality Disorders".

ICD-10 states that Narcissistic Personality Disorder is "a personality disorder that fits none of the specific rubrics F60.0-F60.7". That is, this personality disorder does not meet the diagnostic criteria for any of the following:

F60.0 Paranoid Personality Disorder
F60.1 Schizoid Personality Disorder
F60.2 Dissocial (Antisocial) Personality Disorder
F60.3 Emotionally unstable (borderline) Personality Disorder
F60.4 Histrionic Personality Disorder
F60.5 Anankastic (Obsessive-Compulsive) Personality Disorder
F60.6 Anxious (Avoidant) Personality Disorder
F60.7 Dependent Personality Disorder

[edit] Epidemiology
Narcissist Personality Disorder (NPD) is isolating, disenfranchising, painful, and formidable for those diagnosed with it and often those who are in a relationship with them. Distinctions need to be made between those who have NPD because not each and every person with NPD is the same. Even with similar core issues the way in which one's individual narcissism manifests itself in his or her relationships varies.

Lifetime prevalence is estimated at 1 % in the general population and 2% to 16% in clinical populations. Fifty to 75% of those with this diagnosis are men. [3]


[edit] Causes
The etiology of this disorder is unknown. [3] Pathological narcissism is an infantile defence against abuse and trauma, usually occurring in early childhood or early adolescence and is marked by disregard for the feelings of others, grandiosity, obsessive self-interest, and the pursuit of primarily selfish goals. Thus, narcissism is inextricably entwined with the abused child's or adolescent's emotional make-up, cognitive deficits, and worldview.


[edit] Signs and symptoms
People who have a narcissistic personality style rather than narcissistic personality disorder are generally psychologically healthy, but may at times be arrogant, proud, shrewd, confident, self-centered and determined to be at the top. They do not, however, have an unrealistic image of their skills and worth and are not dependent on praise to sustain a healthy self-esteem.

Overreacts to criticism, becoming angry or humiliated
Uses others to reach goals
Exaggerates own importance
Entertains unrealistic fantasies about achievements, power, beauty, intelligence or romance
Has unreasonable expectation of favorable treatment
Seeks constant attention and positive reinforcement from others
Is easily jealous [4]
Has a sense of entitlement
Is interpersonally exploitative
Lacks empathy
Displays arrogant, haughty behaviour

[edit] Diagnostic criteria
At least five of the following are necessary for a diagnosis (as with many DSM diagnoses, they must form a pervasive pattern; for example, a person who shows these criteria only in one or two relationships or situations would not properly be diagnosed with NPD):

has a grandiose sense of self-importance
is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by other special people
requires excessive admiration
strong sense of entitlement
takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
lacks empathy
is often envious or believes others are envious of him or her
arrogant affect.
(see also full list in DSM-IV-TR, p. 717)

[edit] Prevalence, age, and gender features
According to DSM IV, the prevalence of NPD is less than 1% of the general population, though it manifests itself in 2-16% of psychiatric outpatients. Studies have not conclusively demonstrated any ethnic, social, cultural, economic, genetic, or professional predilection to NPD[5]. However, evidence for heritability greater than that of other personality disorders has been reported[6].

Some narcissistic traits are common and a normal developmental phase. When these traits are compounded by a failure of the interpersonal environment and continue into adulthood they may intensify to the point where NPD is diagnosed. The disorder occurs 50 to 75 percent more frequently in men than in women. It has been suggested that NPD may be exacerbated by the onset of aging and the physical, mental, and occupational restrictions it imposes[5].


[edit] Clinical experience
Pathological narcissism occurs in a spectrum of severity (see [7]. In its more extreme forms, it is narcissistic personality disorder. NPD is considered to result from a person’s belief that he or she is flawed in a way that makes the person fundamentally unacceptable to others [8]. This belief is held below the person’s conscious awareness; such a person would typically deny thinking such a thing if questioned. In order to protect themselves against the intolerably painful rejection and isolation they imagine would follow if others recognized their supposedly defective nature, such people make strong attempts to control others’ view of them and behavior towards them.

The common use of the term “narcissism” refers to some of the ways people defend themselves against this narcissistic dynamic: a concern with one’s own physical and social image, a preoccupation with one’s own thoughts and feelings, and a sense of grandiosity. There are, however, many other behaviors that can stem from narcissistic concerns, such as immersion in one’s own affairs to the exclusion of others, an inability to empathize with others’ experience, interpersonal rigidity, an insistence that one’s opinions and values are “right,” and a tendency to be easily offended and take things personally.

Psychologists commonly believe that pathological narcissism results from an impairment in the quality of the person’s relationship with their primary caregivers, usually their parents, in that the parents were unable to form a healthy, empathic attachment to them. This results in the child conceiving of themselves as unimportant and unconnected to others. The child typically comes to believe that he or she has some defect of personality which makes them unvalued and unwanted [7].

To the extent that people are pathologically narcissistic, they can be controlling, blaming, self-absorbed, intolerant of others’ views, unaware of other’s needs and of the effects of their behavior on others, and insistent that others see them as they wish to be seen [5]. They may also demand certain behavior from their children because they see the children as extensions of themselves, and need the children to represent them in the world in ways that meet the parents’ emotional needs [9]. (For example, a narcissistic father who was a lawyer demanded that his son, who had always been treated as the “favorite” in the family, enter the legal profession as well. When the son chose another career, the father rejected and disparaged him.)

These traits will lead overly narcissistic parents to be very intrusive in some ways, and entirely neglectful in others. The children are punished if they do not respond adequately to the parents’ needs. This punishment may take a variety of forms, including physical abuse, angry outbursts, blame, attempts to instill guilt, emotional withdrawal, and criticism. Whatever form it takes, the purpose of the punishment is to enforce compliance with the parents’ narcissistic needs[9].

People who are overly narcissistic commonly feel rejected, humiliated and threatened when criticised. To protect themselves from these dangers, they often react with disdain, rage, and/or defiance to any slight, real or imagined [10]. To avoid such situations, some narcissistic people withdraw socially and may feign modesty or humility.

There is a broad spectrum of pathologically narcissistic personalities, styles, and reactions -- from the very mild, reactive and transient, to the severe and inflexible narcissistic personality disorder.

Though individuals with NPD are often ambitious and capable, the inability to tolerate setbacks, disagreements or criticism, along with lack of empathy, make it difficult for such individuals to work cooperatively with others or to maintain long-term professional achievements [11]. With narcissistic personality disorder, the person's perceived fantastic grandiosity, often coupled with a hypomanic mood, is typically not commensurate with his or her real accomplishments.

The interpersonal relationships of patients with NPD are typically impaired due to the individual's lack of empathy, disregard for others, exploitativeness, sense of entitlement, and constant need for attention. They frequently select as mates, and engender in their children, "co-narcissism," which is a term coined to refer to a co-dependent personality style similar to co-alcoholism and co-dependency [9]. Co-narcissists organize themselves around the needs of others. They feel responsible for others, accept blame readily, are eager to please, defer to other's opinions, and fear being considered selfish if they act assertively.


[edit] True self, false self
Alexander Lowen describes pathological narcissism, and narcissistic personality disorder, as "the denial of the true self"[12]

Masterson describes the creation of a false self as:

when a young child fails to separate her own self-image from that of her mother. This happens roughly between the ages of two and three, often because of a parent’s own emotional problems. A mother’s encouragement of a child’s self-assertion is vital. When the mother suffers from low self-esteem, she has difficulty encouraging her child’s emerging self. The child experiences this absence as a loss of self, creating feelings of abandonment that lead to depression. To deal with the depression, the child gives up efforts to support her emerging self. Instead, she relies on her mother’s approval to maintain the esteem of a "false self." [13]

[edit] Treatment and prognosis
Though there is controversy in the profession, most psychiatrists and psychologists regard NPD as a relatively stable condition when experienced as a primary disorder [9]. James F. Masterson's A Therapist's Guide to the Personality Disorders: The Masterson Approach outlines a prominent approach to healing NPD, while [7] discusses a continuum of severity and the kinds of therapy most effective in different cases.

It is unusual for people to seek therapy for NPD. Subconscious fears of exposure of inadequacy are often met with defensive disdain of therapeutic processes [14], [15]

Pharmacotherapy is rarely used, though there is one unofficially documented observation of therapeutic response with the atypical anti-depressant bupropion (Wellbutrin). [1]


[edit] See also
Narcissism (psychology)
Malignant narcissism
Megalomania
Hubris
Victory disease
Peter Pan syndrome
Dorian Gray syndrome
Superiority complex
List of fictional narcissists
Narcissus (mythology)
Brian Blackwell

[edit] References
^ Kohut, Heinz, The Analysis of the Self, 1971
^ DSM IV-TR, Diagnostic criteria for 301.81 Narcissistic Personality Disorder
^ a b Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Personality Disorders - Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Armenian Medical Network (2006). Retrieved on 2007-02-14.
^ Laura Stephens (apr 18 2006). Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Psychology Today's Diagnosis Dictionary. Psychology Today. Retrieved on 2007-02-14.
^ a b c American Psychiatric Association: Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition. Washington, DC, American Psychiatric Association, 1994, p. 660
^ Livesley, W.J., Jang, K.L., Jackson, D.N. and P.A. Vernon (1993). "Genetic and environmental contributions to dimensions of personality disorder". American Journal of Psychiatry 150, 1826-1831. Abstract online. Accessed June 18, 2006.
^ a b c
^ Golomb, Elan PhD (1992). Trapped in the Mirror. New York: Morrow, pages 19-20
^ a b c d Rappoport, Alan, Ph. D.Co-Narcissism: How We Adapt to Narcissistic Parents. The Therapist, in press
^ American Psychiatric Association: Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition. Washington, DC, American Psychiatric Association, 1994, p. 659
^ Golomb, Elan PhD (1992). Trapped in the Mirror. New York: Morrow, pages 22
^ Lowen, Alexander, M.D. (1997) Narcissism: Denial of the True Self Touchstone (New York), ISBN 0-7432-5543-7
^ Masterson, J, M.D. The Hollow Self
^ Golomb, Elan PhD (1992). Trapped in the Mirror. New York: Morrow, page 23
^ Kohut, Heinz, (1971). The Analysis of the Self.

[edit] Further Reading
Hotchkiss, Sandy, LCSW (2003) Why Is It Always About You? : The Seven Deadly Sins of Narcissism (Free Press), ISBN 0-7432-1428-5

[edit] External links
DSM-IV-TR Narcissistic Personality Disorder Diagnostic Criteria Mentions two film depictions of persons with NPD and a few suggested books.
The DSM Diagnostic Criteria The DSM Diagnostic criteria explained
v • d • eDSM-IV Personality Disorders[hide]
Cluster A (Odd): Schizotypal, Schizoid, Paranoid

Cluster B (Dramatic): Antisocial, Borderline, Histrionic, Narcissistic

Cluster C (Anxious): Dependent, Obsessive-Compulsive, Avoidant

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder"
Categories: Narcissism | Personality disorders | Psychoanalytic theory | Psychoanalysis | Hubris

reallyME

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Re: questions on narcissism
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2007, 08:19:34 AM »
Hi, Toodles

I'd like to try and put in some info here about WHAT IS NARCISSISM.

Healthy Narcissism involves: being creative, being able to delay gratification, being able to take responsibility for your own actions, having meaningful, healthy relationships, having firm, reasonable boundaries.

A person with Pathological, Unhealthy Narcissism:

Constantly criticizes you
blames you for their discomfort
makes you feel responsible for their physical and emotional well-being
expects you to admire them
demands constant attention
insist everything is done their way
expects you to anticipate and fill their needs
becomes easily offended
ignores, minimizes, discounts your feelings
makes demeaning comments about you
devalues your work and ideas
tries to overly control you
blames, criticizes you for their errors

A Pathological, Destructive Narcissist:

Needs constant attention, admiration
Needs to be considered unique/special (don't like being compared to other people)
Lacks empathy (can't understand why their behavior would upset you)
See you as merely an extension of themself (like a puppet they created)
Are Grandiose (live in fantasy a lot and brag about "who they know")
Shallow Emotions
Exploit others for their own benefit
Are emotionally abusive

They:

Turn every conversation back onto themselves
ignore the impact of their mean comments on you
constantly criciticize/berate you
blame vs accepting responsibility
expect you to jump at their every whim

You know they are there because they:

brag, have tantrums, are loud, sulk, complain constantly, have an attitude of superiority, use one-upmanship, tease people, have seductive behaviors, wait to be coaxed into doing things.

(info excerpted from CHILDREN OF THE SELF-ABSORBED, by Nina Brown)


mudpuppy

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Re: questions on narcissism
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2007, 09:10:03 PM »
Quote
Everyone deserves to be loved, Toodles.

Not trying to be a pain and not saying it isn't, but is the above quote true?

mud

gratitude28

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Re: questions on narcissism
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2007, 10:10:26 PM »
CB,
What a nice answer. My thought, though, is that, deserving or not, Ns can't experience love. They don't feel it and can't understand it. So it is a pointless endeavor with them... whether as an SO or as a parent.
But you are right, it makes a difference what we are giving and how we think of others...
Love, Beth
"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable." Douglas Adams

Hopalong

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Re: questions on narcissism
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2007, 11:19:25 PM »
hey Mud,
I thought it wasn't up to us to judge who deserves love.

Xxperience taught me I love all human beings but keep myself safe too, so I guess that means if I love an N, do it with detachment, compassion, but BOUNDARIES so they don't hurt me any more.

Love is a behavior anyway, not a feeling. I think the feeling is lovely, but something else...

So my love for any Ns has to be acted out by distance, both to protect myself, but also because it is not loving to the core humanity of any person who is an N to present them with a victim.

imnho

Hops
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seastorm

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Re: questions on narcissism
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2007, 03:31:31 AM »
I love tigers, lions, cheetahs, piranhas, and sharks but I do not hang out with them. I know what they are capable of. I am prey to them.

Finally, after years of martyrdom and pain I have learned that I am prey to Narcissists too.

Sea storm

reallyME

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Re: questions on narcissism
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2007, 05:48:36 AM »
This might sound a bit weird, but I can say I love the N's in my life...as Hops said, from a distance.  Did Hitler, Stalin deserve love?  How about Anna Nicole?  They were all examples of people with severe personality disorders, in my estimation.

Even if someone loved Hitler, I'm pretty certain that they didn't let him know directly.  They spent their time hoping they were not his next victim.  If someone tried to love Anna Nicole Smith, I'm not so sure it would have mattered to her, one way or another...it seems that, for Narcissists, especially, people are pretty much disposable and replaceable.  In other words, to an N, you are nothing more or less than an OBJECT.

I remember realizing a while back, in a situation, "wow, it's like I'm the puppet and N pulls the strings.  When I actually begin to speak and think for myself, N can't handle it, because after all, N, thinking he/she created me, is thinking, "oh my gosh! IT spoke to me!"

Can you love your own puppetmaster?  Only if you have a major case of DEPENDENT personality disorder or masochistic wishes of some kind.

my two cents

~L

Sela

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Re: questions on narcissism
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2007, 10:32:06 AM »
Hi everyone:

Welcome Toodles!  Wow!  Those are some questions you asked there!  Good for you!!  It's good for the old brain eh?  Asking stuff.

I have no better answers to give you.  I think the others here have done a wonderful job.

Here's what I wondered about (I think you wrote this CB):

Quote
It is a choice.

NDP is a choice?
Really?
A personality "disorder" is a choice?
Does that mean that the person can choose not to have this personality disorder, if they want to?

I have not read that before and I'm wondering about it.

Quote
Studies have not conclusively demonstrated any ethnic, social, cultural, economic, genetic, or professional predilection to NPD[5]. However, evidence for heritability greater than that of other personality disorders has been reported[6].

If science sees evidence that this personality disorder is inherited more often than other personality disorders, wouldn't that mean an actual genetic transfer from one generation to another?   How could a person choose not to accept that transfer?

Quote
We are trained by the choices that we make--narcissists have consistently made choices that have trained them to look at the world through ME-colored glasses.
 

Maybe I'm not understanding what you mean here CB?  I guess I had thought that people with NDP make choices but that their personality disorder is what caused them to make those choices.  In other words, if they did not have a personality disorder, then it would be unlikely that they would consistently make such (awful, nasty, etc imo) choices.

Maybe I'm mixed up about this?

 :? Sela

mudpuppy

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Re: questions on narcissism
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2007, 12:01:42 PM »
Since I posed the question guess I should say something.

In my question I didn't say everyone doesn't deserve to be loved, I just asked if it is true that they do.
But I do believe the answer is they do not.

It is correct that we are not supposed to judge others, but I believe that refers to condemning others for their actions, it does not refer to making a judgement as to the nature of those actions.

To me the operative word in CB's phrase was 'deserve'.
I don't think anyone deserves love except for the helpless and the defenseless.
Most humans seem to me to be profoundly unlovable. If we want to get theological, Christian orthodoxy seems to me to be that we most definitely do not 'deserve' God's love. The miracle is not that He loves us unconditionally because we're so lovable. It's that He loves us despite how unlovable we are, that we in fact don't deserve His love but He gives it to us as a free undeserved gift.

Similarly we are commanded to love all people. But not because they deserve it. We are told it is easy to love those who deserve it; our friends and those who treat us well. The command is to love our enemies and those who spitefully use us. I don't think we're being told to love our enemies because they deserve it, but precisely because they don't, so that we might then understand the nature of God's undeserved love for us.

On a practical level I believe almost all people desire to be loved but they do not necessarily deserve it. I love everyone but I don't think a good portion of them deserve it. To me when we deserve some consideration, such as love, it is through some actions we have performed to earn it. I can think of a good many people whose actions have earned them a great many things, with love being conspicously absent from the list. Just because we may choose to love such people does not mean they deserve it. They don't and a lot of times we probably don't either. It's that people choose to love in spite of human behavior that is amazing.

mud

Leah

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Re: questions on narcissism
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2007, 01:23:17 PM »
To me the operative word in CB's phrase was 'deserve'.
I don't think anyone deserves love except for the helpless and the defenseless.



Mud:    You are are right - they don't 'deserve'

Meaning of deserve (verb):

to be worthy of;  to have a right to


It is correct that we are not supposed to judge others, but I believe that refers to condemning others for their actions, it does not refer to making a judgment as to the nature of those actions.

Few days ago, I posted regarding the big difference between judging (reading / observing the facts and making a discerned decision) and the action of condemning.

Unfortunately, in todays circles, the difference is denied, sadly, to the detriment of many.

Leah

« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 01:27:39 PM by LeahsRainbow »
Jun 2006 voiceless seeking

April 2008 - "The Gaslight Effect" How to Spot & Survive by Dr. Robin Stern - freedom of understanding!

The Truth About Abuse VIDEO

Lupita

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Re: questions on narcissism
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2007, 05:29:13 PM »
This Toodles posted this question, and everybody is debating here, including me, with me putting the post that is going to make it to 15 posts, "hot topic" and Toodles has not even bothered to comment on everybody's time to answer his post. To me, that means something. I am starting to understand.  :?
There are people who like to stear things for their own amusement, not That I am saying that Toodles is one of them, but I am just observing. Sorry I have not posted lately, I am depressed.
Lupita

Leah

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Re: questions on narcissism
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2007, 05:54:47 PM »

Hi (((( Lupita ))))

Maybe Toodles is struggling to come to terms with the enormous realization of NPD ....... it isn't an easy task.

Yes, you rightly observe and mention, it is a documented fact that on any board, there are those who like to play the board for their own self gain, or whatever.

Personally, I just start off a thread, and, also post to threads, offering a little support or insight ...... unconditionally, with no expectations.

Genuinely sorry to read that you are feeling depressed Lupita ...... is that due to your work situation?

((( Leah )))

Jun 2006 voiceless seeking

April 2008 - "The Gaslight Effect" How to Spot & Survive by Dr. Robin Stern - freedom of understanding!

The Truth About Abuse VIDEO

Lupita

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Re: questions on narcissism
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2007, 06:09:21 PM »
Thank you for asking me about my job. I dont think so. I have a friend that says that all jobs have problems. But I suffer for the regular problems of teaching and that burns me out, because I am seaking love and dont get it. My friend says that the fact that they dont fire me is good enough that I am doing a good job. But since I am ssking love and dont get it i feel bad. But the work place is a bad pelace to look for love. You need to look for a pay check only. So, no matter what I do, if my boss does not behave like a mother or father I am sad, but since I have never found a boss that behaves like mother or father, i am always burned out and depressed.
Thank you for asking.
Lupita