For Sally

[Sally]

Survivor: Gosh, I thought that trick of sending too small clothes was developed by my dear mother, guess not!! So sorry for you.  It is such a mean thing to do, isn't it? Send a gift that you cannot possibly use! Oh, and we have one other strange custom in my family.  Writing thank you notes.  If one does not write a thank you note even to family members, then we also don't exist. It becomes a terrible trap. You don't exist if you are perceived as anything more than five pounds overweight, but if you are sent a size small that certainly won't fit; you are still expected to write a glowing thank you note about how much you loved it!  That was just like harping on my weight/size all of the time and baking fresh batches of cookies each week that I shouldn't eat! AARRRGGHHH!!!!

So, my one stab at freedom with that whole issue was to not write a thank you note, so at least I wasn't lying, and then give the clothes to my best friend who really is a small.  My friend loves it and can't wait for my birthday and Christmas !!

Like you Survivor, I also was the BIG GIRL in the family. I'm 5'7", my mother and sister are both just 5' probably 100lbs. wet!  I also have large bones, and they have these little bitty bones...kind of like chicken wings.  Oh well, I can never win.  Sounds like you can't either!! So here's to us the big and beautiful members of those families!!!  Hugs. Sally

[Sally]

Rosencrantz: Interesting thought and especially interesting with Surf's comment's just above yours. I think that I actually felt both when he was not around and acting as if he couldn't care less. I think I felt both invisible and as if I didn't exist. But the feeling that came up yesterday was certainly non-existance.

And, I am definetly an introvert, not extrovert. Was made to act like an extrovert all my life which felt so false, and I would get so tired all of the time!  It was so nice to know when I no longer had to play that game that I could get more sleep!!!

So, I think it is the non-existence, and if Surf's thought is right, which I think it probably is, I learned that, felt that as an infant with my mother.  And, it would fit.  The only reason I was born was so that my mother could try and keep my father from running off with the woman he was having an affair with (that affair went on for 30 years).  My father divorced my mother and married his mistress five years before he died of brain cancer, I was in my mid 30's by then.

The thought of looking in to my mother's face, even as an adult, is a terrifying experience. She really looks evil.  She has these blank eyes and fake smile, it sends chills down my back even today just to think about it.  Imagine what it must have been like to look into her face as an infant and try to get some feeling of existing? She was definetly a woman who never should have had children.

Rosencrantz thanks for your posts and help these past couple of days.  I'm feeling soooo much better today.  Have hope.  Just know I am going to get through this!  Hugs.  Sally

[surf14]

Sally, Sayyy, I'm so glad you got back on the board tonight.  I was kind of worried today and hoped you were OK.   Am glad you are feeling better!

  But I had to laugh at this:  "So, my one stab at freedom with that whole issue was to not write a thank you note, so at least I wasn't lying, and then give the clothes to my best friend who really is a small. My friend loves it and can't wait for my birthday and Christmas !!

  We have a thank you note issue in my family too; interesting how similar this is.  You just simply have to write one everytime irregardless or you are just BAD.  But your reference to rebelling by not writing to thank for the miss-sized clothes, and then giving them to your friend who can't wait for your birthday to arrive...ha ha   .  Good way to deal with this craziness!  

Sounds like you're putting it all together now Sally with lightening speed.  I'm very satisfied to hear this.  Take care.  Surf.

[Survivor]

Sally and Surf14,

WOW!!!  I can't believe all of us have the same "Thank-You Note" history!  I have a huge stack of assorted Thank-You cards in my house for having been brought up to do this.  My daughters, who are now 21 and 18, also know this practice.  It all came from my NMother . . . but do you think SHE ever sends one?  Never!  The crazy thing is, we never expected one from her for years, but knew we all had to send them!  Not any more . . . we don't even speak to her now.

Sally . . . my sister and mother are both very small too (but I love my sister - we get along great).  I always wondered why I was a "giant" and "big boned" girl.  I'm 5'8" and shop at Layne "Giant" (Layne Bryant) as my mom would call it!  The funny thing is, my daughters are 6'1" and 5'11" and my mom has never said anything to either of them.  Ironically, they LOVE being so tall since they were not raised by her.  I like being tall now too.

Thanks for the laughs  :    . . . I feel like I've finally found my "home" where I can relate . . . thanks so much!

Survivor

[clj_writes]

Sally,
I have been reading a great book* that addressed my own sense of invisibility.  It says people typically act either like their parents or opposite them or (and this is the one that I'd never considered) treat themselves like their parents treated them.  Our mothers treated us as invisible in a sense so it is logical we treat ourselves the same way.  The freeing thing is that we can repattern this!

On the size issue, my mother and I are the same size but she always wanted clothes from me.  I'm 41 and she still wears my clothes I discarded decades ago.  Super creepy based on the posts in reply to yours!

Take care.  It sounds like you are making great progress!
Christy

* The book is Where Freedom Begins and is excellent for working out parental issues.  It was recommended by a Sister of Mercy who used to do week long workshops with it.  
Here's a link: http://www.bestwebbuys.com/books/compare/isbn/0914728792/isrc/b-home-search

[surf14]

Boy survivor:  How funny that your family has this issue too!!!!  Maybe this might turn out to be univeral amongst N's and a way to spot them cold.       Surf

[Sally]

This has been such fun reading!! Sometimes when I'm thinking of ways to zing my mother (always just fantasy, but fun) I think of little notes I would like to write to her.  Would be fun to write one telling her an interesting study about to begin that links narcissism with an obsession for thank you notes!!

You all, I am doing soooooooo well today!! Just can't believe how well I am doing.  But I think it's because I kept looking all of these twenty years for the missing link.  I couldn't understand why I kept accepting my exN into my life. Just finally figured the whole situation was hopeless, I was doomed to dance the rest of my life with him in horrible pain.

But learning about the narcissism has completely answered all of the questions that kept haunting me. I've worked so hard to get over this guy that by the time I got to the narcissism issue, there was nothing else left to consider.  And, I knew so much about him by then that the minute I looked at the narcissistic characteristics I could see him in bold letters. Like a lightening bolt!!

So, I am doing well, but it has taken my sooooooo long and sooooooo much work to get here.  And the support I got from this board during the difficult days was what helped the most. Thanks so much again!!

[surf14]

Sounds really good Sally.  I'm glad that getting more information has been so freeing.  sounds liek there'sno going back now.   Aloha  Surf

[rosencrantz]

I can relate to that, Sally!

IF my father hadn't died, I wouldn't have had to come up against my mother so intimately again.  Every day I'd hear how she was managing her life, how she reacted to people, what her priorities were - I'd both be incredulous about what she was doing AND find excuses for her (AND give MYSELF 'Fail' grades - yet what I was doing was 'merely' defining her personality accurately!!).  And I nearly drowned in what she was doing to me.

But then when the articles on narcissism arrived in my inbox one day, and when I finally got round to reading them! - there it all was!  Or rather, there SHE was!!  I can still remember : it was (as the phrase goes) as if time stood still!!!  I may even have stopped breathing.  My eyes couldn't have got wider!!!!!  (I think I remembered to shut my mouth!!)  

Knowing someone as their daughter isn't always the same as knowing someone as an equal adult.  And that's something my father's death gave me an opportunity to do.  

I haven't always absolutely 100% of the time been glad about the discovery and how it came about - especially as it still meant losing out on a relationship (for me AND my son) with my father, but oh gosh, YES - the pain of not knowing would always have been much bigger than the pain of knowing!!!

The past now makes sense (and so do I!!) and the future must surely open out in a better way as a result.  Even if all I can do is make sure my son understands what it's all about.  

But I still don't feel 'fit for human scrutiny' yet.  I feel very nervous about being amongst other people.  I live somewhere where I hadn't made friends before this happened and I've moved into such a different place in my head that I wouldn't know where to begin with old friends I've left behind.  And I'm too 'different' (wobbly?) right now to be the person they knew.

The world is suddenly a different place and I don't know where I fit in any more!!!!  I found this Board (lifesaver) but where do I reconnect with the outside world???   And can I trust myself in the outside world anyway - not to get sucked in and spat out again as part of somebody else's dish of the day!!  And if it's to be on MY terms only, can there ever be 'friendship' again???!    

I have such intimacy here with people who are 'strangers'; and then I see familiar faces around me with whom I have nothing in common and no point of reference...

As the saying goes : 'I need to get out more'!!!   But we definitely need an ACON movement here in the UK!!!!!

R

[clj_writes]

Dear R,
I have only recently arrived here (both to the forum and acknowledgment of my ACON status) but I must say your posts are filled with wisdom and caring.  Based on what I've read, I would gladly be your "real" friend although I guess the ocean precludes that at the moment.    

I know that feeling of not wanting to come out of the cave and take your show on the road but you are laying the groundwork for that eventual day.  To worry about it now is getting ahead of yourself, I think.  When you are "ready", you will know it and there will be as much excitement and anticipation as anxiety.  Since most of us spent many years either hiding who we were or oblivious to it, it takes some time to excavate those tender inner selves.  I myself feel a great sense of urgency to "get on with it"!

In the mean time, let's all practice the kindness and gentleness with ourselves that we wish to receive from others!  

P.S. To all-please pardon my previous post on this thread--I didn't see there was a second page of posts (a newbie move!) and thus jumped in at a weird time.

[Sally]

Rosencrantz: I felt so relieved to hear that your understanding of narcissism came to you with the same thunder bolt as it did me. I've been so relieved to have an answer, that I don't want to spend a whole lot of time worrying about why I didn't know before,  but it has bothered me some.

I've had over twenty years of one on one therapy, group therapy, treatment center for three months, just about every twelve step program for 15 years, and no where did the subject of narcissism come up. Ever! And yet both my mother and the man who caused so much pain in my life obviously are narcissits and I have all of the characteristics of ACON.
I just don't understand how nobody even mentioned it to  me.  Do you have any ideas about that, since your discovery was your own as well?

Your comments about hesitation meeting new people, and feeling so different was really interesting. I am very much an introvert (someone who gathers strength from being alone) and find that the heathier I get (psychologically) the more comfortable I am with being alone.  And, I really love to be alone.  I like people and have a few friends I really enjoy being around, but other than that, I am really happy to be by myself.  I've often wondered if that hasn't been the result of being around such insane people all of my life!!

It does feel all new, though, doesn't it?  It's like night and day for me.  How long ago did you learn the truth about your mother? Hugs. Sally

[Anonymous]

YOU exist. You exist for us here!! You exist for other people and you exist for YOU. It's your experience of his response to you that you are expressing.
 ( R )

and its really important to get some affirming supportive people in your life, clear all the negative people out I've found, or it's impossible for me to maintain my fragmented self-worth.

[Wildflower]

Hi Rosencrantz,

I’ve been thinking about you a lot today.  There’s a woman in my belly dance class who reminds me of you:  she’s confident (as you are in your writing), she’s bold (she has her own lavish belly dance outfit and wears it with pride), and she’s open (as you are with your experiences).  She is, in a lot of ways, how I imagine you to be in real life, and she brings life and spirit to the class, as you do to this board.  

The world is suddenly a different place and I don't know where I fit in any more!!!! I found this Board (lifesaver) but where do I reconnect with the outside world???  And can I trust myself in the outside world anyway - not to get sucked in and spat out again as part of somebody else's dish of the day!! And if it's to be on MY terms only, can there ever be 'friendship' again???!  

This really struck me and reminded me of how I often feel as I nudge myself out into the world.  I feel that my true identity was locked away in  closet and forgotten about for years and is only now seeing the light of day again – little by little.  It’s scary, but very rewarding.  I was wondering if you also felt that the ‘real’ you is going out into the world, or if you feel that this is a ‘new’ you?

One of the things that N’s force us to do is live in extremes – either we’re giving ourselves wholly to them, or we’re fiercely defending ourselves – at all costs.  I think that with most people, though, it’s possible to have a friendship that respects each person’s boundaries without having to be on either person’s terms.

And on a lighter note, I had to laugh (and groan) when I read this in one of your earlier postings on this thread:

One day (in my early 20s), in desperation, one time when I went home during a vacation and she was twisting and turning everything and driving me mad, I tried to phone the Samaritans. I managed to get through. I was sitting in a small room at the front of the house which wasn't used much. I only managed to make contact for an instant - my mother came in and broke the connection.

I put my head down on the stool in front of me. I cannot explain the noise I made - a very long aaaaaaaaagggghhhh of total anguish. I'll never forget.

And my mother twitched the net curtains and said 'What WILL the neighbours think'!

You gotta laugh!!!!!!!!!!!!! ?

This reminded me of the first scene in "Harold and Maude" in which the incredibly N mom gets exasperated with her son as he stages a suicide in front of her (it’s a black comedy).  He’s hanging from a rope while she makes arrangements with her hairdresser, and as she leaves the room, she asks him to 'try to be a little more vivacious’ for dinner.  

Wildflower

[rosencrantz]

Hi Guys - it's been quite tough coming back into this thread after all that but - hey! thanks!!!

I find it very difficult to be 'seen' to get warm and up close with other people on an individual basis because there's always someone over my shoulder about to get jealous and paranoid and destructive so it's easier to treat everyone the same and at a distance.  So replying is a bit of a struggle right now.

Wildflower - LOL - Thanks Wildflower - yes, that's how I USED to be!!  I feel too fragile to even attempt to be that person right now!!!

clj_writes - Thank you!!  And thank you for the thoughtful advice about taking time.  I guess in many ways I'm practising here for real life later.

And yet there's nothing 'real life' about this experiencee - we each offer ourselves up for scrutiny to each other in a raw way that doesn't happen in real life and we get time to reflect and see each other intereact with others.  Honestly, I'm a wreck in real life right now - I feel that you could 'knock me over with a feather'!!  Maybe there is an issue that I need to get physically stronger first - go for walks.  But so much energy is taken up in dealing with the day to day stuff, my mother's finances, the solicitors, and my own internetty business.  

When I spoke to the Social Services and they said they were closing the case on my mother, I just fell over this precipice, scrabbling to hang on, babbling to keep them on the line while I tried to re-compose myself so I could say what was needed to be said (mature, wise, together) rather than sounding like I was the one who needed help.  Even if I was!!!!!  I haven't done that in decades.

Just one little push and I'm over the precipice!!!  Abandoned.  Lost forever, and unable to look after myself in the big, bad world.   Cheesh!

All my experiences right now are of me backing away, losing my foothold.  I've spent my life pushing myself to live a half way fulfilling life in spite of my fears - and now (in spite of the fact that now I have the knowledge of what it's all been about) I feel broken - I have lost my confidence even to try.  Now I KNOW it's a mean, bad world out there.    Anybody got any superglue, please???

On the other hand, as you said, our real selves...but I don't want to be this twitchy, nervous person.  My father's sisters were all twitchy, nervous people, too.  So had my father been, I discovered in his final days.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if HE wasn't an ACON, too!!!  He was a GOOD man and deserved better. (Just stamped my foot then!!)

Difficult not to be a twitchy, nervous person at heart, I suppose, with the twists and turns of an Nmother - however loving she intended to be.  I can almost hear the words 'Why me?' creeping up on me.  

Anyway, that's where I am and I can't change it right now - tho I can give the odd  
R

[surf14]

Hi  Rozencrantz;
  I've hesitated to respond on this thread to you because I've been at a loss as to how to say this; bit here goes.  Basically the personage that you present here on the forum is one who is strong, capable, and highly intelliagent. You are the last person I would have suspected of having feelings of 'not feeling fit' or having difficulties with relationships!  Maybe you are going through a down period now with too much stress but how you present is very discordant with how you describe yourself.

Acons do have relationship issues, but who doesn't?  Its Ok to feel 'twitchy'; that's how it is right now but it won't be that way forever.  Feeling like someone is waiting with jealosy on the sidelines waiting to chew you up and spit you out...that's the ghost of your mother and her behavior that she modeled while raising you.  Its hard to trust but important to sort out how much is the ghost of the past from what is really going on now in the present  moment.

You're fantastic  R; very strong and compassionate.  Hope you have a grat day!   Surf