Brutal realisations...

[spyralle]

Hey all,

I need to talk so forgive me if I go off on a bit of a ramble...  I am beginning to think that my best friend.. who I have loved for over ten years is not treating me that well..  I just needed to check a few things out I guess, as something is prodding me to open my eyes and take note...  I feel like a traitor even posting this but I just have to get it off my chest..  Gonna just run down a checklist of things that are starting to bother me..

When my partner died...  Her and her husband were great.  They came to collect me and took me back to their house for the night.  My friend L came with me to registars etc and they were with me for the funeral...  She sent her kids to stay with me and my daughter to make sure I did not do anything stupid.  Her kids 14 and 15 stayed for ages as it was summer holidays...  It was all very hard...  A few months later we L and her husband and all kids decided we would go away for a break...  I found out that they had booked with out me..  I was really upset and me and L had a huge row..  Our only one ever.  She had all my dead fiance's stuff at her house as I could not bear to see it..  She threatened to throw it out on the street...

Both her and her husband always laugh hysterically at my driving and ridicule it

We just went to Spain...  We were supposed to be meeting at their house..  They live on a rough estate.  I was very worried about parking my car there as I had a load of valuable stuff in the boot..  They said it would be fine as they would be parking theirs there.  When I arrived at their house there was no one there.  I ranng and they were both at L's mum's  I drove over there and ended up driving them both back so they could leave their cars at her mum's house where they were safe.  L's mum offered for me to leave my car there but L's husband said no we didn't have time to call a taxi.

In Spain we hired a car between the three of us..  I asked if husband could give me a lift to my mum's..  He said no..  In fact he ened up giving me a lift nowhere..  I got the bus there and back and not a word was said about it..

L asked me to take day off and come with her to a meeting as she had taken a lot of sick time from work and was being called in..  I did..  A few weeks later I asked her to do the same as I had a hospital appointment..  She simply said No I have to work..

My daughter as you all know is expecting a baby.  I am so very excited about it.  I mentioned it in Spain and L's husband said...  "I hate babies"  He ridiculed people who liked them...

I rang L yesterday to see how she got on with her job interview..  She said they had had a party at the weekend.  When I asked who had been invited she said everyone..  The usual crowd..  They had not invited me...  I said nothing..

Her husband has just trained as a nurse and I have helped him with his work even doing one of his papers for him..  for which he got an A..

They did cook me tea every week on a Thursday for a while after ex N left,  but have only been to my house twice in the past year...  When they come to my place, If they bring their dog, my dog has to be locked out..  My dog is a big playful softie, and the two dogs love to play but theirs is not alowed in case my dog hurts her!!!!!!

I am very confused though I could go on and on but for fear of boring the pants off everyone I will stop..

Please give me a clue..

Spyralle xxx

[Overcomer]

Spy:  Well it sounds like these people are on the self absorbed side.  Maybe like me you are an N magnet!  Try to make some new friends!

[Stormchild]

Hi Spyralle

Umm... it sounds as though these folks need for you to be in some kind of trouble or distress, in order to relate to you. They need to be 'better than' you, somehow. If you're in a terrible situation, they'll support you, but if you're in a good situation, you get the back of their hand.

Do you see the pattern? When you were in the midst of troubles, they were happy to step in and help you out, but when you showed any signs of wholeness, health, happiness - even for a moment - they had to smack you right back down into the mud. Notice, too, that they took advantage of you in subtle and not-so-subtle ways, especially in how they 'set you up' with the car so that you'd be the one risking your auto, not them, and they even made SURE that your car was at risk by refusing L's mother's kind offer to let you leave it in a safe place.

When you were bereaved, they stepped in to help. Once you were back on your feet, they punished you for it in various ways - including that business of L. asking for a lift, then later refusing you one. Hey, you went and got better, how dare you? Take THAT!

This happens a lot in co-dependent situations - not just alcohol, either, chronic physical illness can do it, and so can depression, etc. where one person is in a mess, for some reason, and the other person gets used to being 'the strong one'. Sometimes when the messed-up person makes a serious commitment to recovery, or in the case of chronic illness, if they finally get better, the 'strong' person can't deal with the change - the loss of their 'role'. They will actually try to sabotage their partner's or spouse's recovery.

It isn't always conscious, but things can be intentional even when they're below the level of conscious awareness. And it doesn't always start out as this kind of lopsided interaction - sometimes it becomes unbalanced because the 'strong' one discovers they like feeling important. But other times, the 'strong' one is deliberately looking for a 'weak' one because they need that sense of superiority from the very start.

I don't know what else to say except that - this isn't something to blame yourself for. Many 'friendships' of many years duration are actually this kind of interaction. Much 'charity' is too. It's very hard to know at the start, especially if we are young when we befriend one another. The only way to know is to have enough time, or enough opportunities, to see whether people 'invest' in you [or others] only when they can feel 'better than' you.

Real friends will help lift you up, and when you're back to standing on your own two feet, they'll cheer for you and be happy to be on an equal standing - and if they're down and need your help, they won't try to 'set you up' to suffer loss or harm as a direct result of helping them, and they won't take your help and then meanly refuse to respond in kind when you need theirs!

You can't fix or change these folks. They did provide some help at a time when you needed it - but then you got the bill, and the emotional payments they've asked for are really much too high.

I'm struck by the fact that when I read this thread, you had two threads side by side: Good Positive Things and Brutal Realisations. Life is EXACTLY like that sometimes. You get both things in the same package!

You did get some help, but it's best to see it for what it is - you can be thankful for the ways in which your needs were genuinely met during your crisis, and also be able to see that unfortunately the overall situation isn't healthy.

Distance helps; and it's not coldness, it's detachment. They will find others to play the game with; you can find others who don't need such games... it just takes time...

[spyralle]

Stormy, 

What you said makes absolute sense, and i see this pattern throughout my life in so many ways..  I had many friends like this..  Like I am great when I am down and someones project but when I am up people often try to put me back down..  You know even when D died and she sent her kids to stay..  I almost had the feeling that they were being left with me as that was easier for her..  It wasn't easy for me I have to say..  I wanted her to talk adult stuff to..  but I ended up coping with three children instead of one.

I open my eyes and I look around and I think people get power out of my low self esteem...  I am constantly nice because I want people's approval as I feel unworthy...  somewhere underneath I feel anger about this but I am unable to do anything about it..  I have been so grateful that she wanted to be my friend that I have overlooked so much..  I even asked her husband to speak at D's funeral.. and do you know what he said..  Amidst all the lovely stuff that D had asked him if he would be his friend..  Even at a time like that his arrogance was evident..  I'm sorry if I am not making much sense..  i am just writing as it all occurs to me today..  You are so right about my threads.  I guess that is why my childhood was so confusing...  Nmum would do something lovely then back it up with a put down..  somehow I stick with the lovely and unconsciously absorb the put downs... 

I don't want to do that any more..  I will be keeping my distance but it is painful because it means more rejection and more loss.. 

S x

[WRITE]

got to get off for therapy but here's a hug (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Havign a few 'friend moments' myself today. And it is a bit brutal too, friendship at times.

~W

[spyralle]

Yep CB....  I'm gonna have to do the same which is gutting really as she has been my friend for 10 yrs..  I've never been very good at being around other women so that made our friendship all the more special to me... but again I think I have been blindspotting stuff..  I got good at that as a child..

xx

[Leah]

((((( Spyralle )))))

Stormchild has superbly explained, as CB as pointed out, the dynamic of your friend(s).

Likewise, I have experienced this in my FOO, and also, with a friend, whom I gradually detached from.

 

They need to be 'better than' you, somehow. If you're in a terrible situation, they'll support you, but if you're in a good situation, you get the back of their hand.

 

Validation of what seems to be their motivation.  Also, seems to me, to have an element of control in the midst.

Truly, it is so sad that people have to be so nasty to us, and it's so very painful too.

Here's to a true best friend, waiting round the corner, just for you.

Leah xx

[Stormchild]

(((((((Spyralle)))))))

(((((((everybody else too)))))))

[gratitude28]

Spyralle,
I have a friend who cannot relate to anyone unless she is "saving" or "helping" that person in some way. It drives me nuts. I think she tells herself it is pennance for having money and education. But the fact is, she can never just be a friend. She always has to be giving me something or doing something for me - or even correcting me. I would bet they needed to help you during the difficult time to make themselves feel good. Do they talk about how much they do for other people???
((((((((((Spyralle)))))))))))))
Love, Beth

[spyralle]

Before I start I just read Leah's post nasty people and in there she says "surely not everyone can be an N"...  so I got to thinking..  Am I intolerant.  Am I spotting N behaviour everywhere because I am paranoid.  Should I be more accepting..  But then I got to thinking again..  Maybe everyone in the world isn't an N..  Maybe it's me who attracts them..  Now that is scary..  I mean I've joked about being an N magnet before but now I am beginning to feel that I am a magnet for nothing but N's and this terrifies me as it means total loneliness... 

I do have one friend though who is not an N and i feel I need to focus on this for a few moments..  We have become very close since July when her husband (who I suspect is an N) left her suddenly and in a shocking way.  She used to work for me so we have known each other quite a while but we had never really been close friends..  I always thought the gulf was a bit too wide I guess..  She had what I considered to be a very ordinary life..  a life that I couldn't possibly cross the threshold of because I had no understanding of how it worked...  Anyway I kept my distance because I also suspect she was a little too nice to me and she seemed to..  dare I say it....  actually like me!!!!!!!!!  That kind of devalued her in my eyes..  I mean she must be a bit pathetic if she liked me!!!!!

Anyway.... to cut a long story short after her husband left she was of ourse in high drama..  Aha....  this was something I understood.. so we started talking every day, me in my super saviour mode and her in that place where you need a lifebuoy.... but as time has gone on we have spent less time in the drama and more time just enjoying each others company....  For me this is a total first.  A friend who is interested in what I say and I am interested in what she has to say..  A two way friendship..  We spend lots of time together just doing girl things I guess shopping eating chatting and I know that if I have a problem I can ring her and we can talk it through, but the rest of the time we just have fun...  I convinced her and her kids to buy roller blades and we did that the other weekend..  You know it was just ordinary and fun and a total revelation to me...  I suppose the bottom line is that this is just what it is.... no hidden agenda and honesty and support.

I guess what does help is that this girl's mum is an N... she clearly bears the voiceless scars of that like me and maybe at some level we just understand...  Am I rambling.. if I am forgive me I am just trying to make some sense...  You see what I was thinking is..  If I had not become so friendly with S would I have noticed what L and Husband were doing or would I have just carried on feeling grateful that they loved me so much...

Spyralle x

[spyralle]

Sorry I got a bit carried away there and forgot to reply ...  I think you are right about control.  I think control is exactly it.  I wonder if that is cos L and her husband are out of control....  They have remortgaged and remortgaged their house until there is barely any equity and then when we were away they bought a timeshare on a slow payment scheme...  Husband very arrogantly announced that I would not be allowed to go with them!!!!!  Like they were more important now somehow because they owned a timeshare....  L is on a vast variety of medication heart pills for angina (obviously very necessary)... SSRI's...  addicted to co codamol... and a million other things..  Husband binge drinks not in an alcoholic way but too much...  they have a massive huge tv in their house and he is in total control of it at all times... If I sound bitchy please tell me..  I'm trying not to be but the more these things start to surface I would rather explore them here than anywhere else..

Husband sees himself as someone that everyone wants to emulate....  If any of their single friends have a boyfriend he must pass judgement.  I went out with quite a nice guy on the face of things last year...  Husband of L spent his time running him down.  he was a veggie and didn't wear leather so he quite often had baseball boots on...  Husband of L let's call him B as it is easier complained that he could therefore not be an "alpha male" so ridiculed him all the time..  I'm not saying this guy was perfect but he didn't deserve that

I love roller blading..  B says it is very childish...  I love to watch Big Brother..  B says I am pathetic for doing so.... Once B said that because I believed in spirits and angels etc that I may not get into heaven....  Ugh now I am beginning to get angry....

When we were in Spain and he wouldn't give me a lift to my mums I actually lost the plot and I think this is the point where all this realisation started..  I called him a selfish to**er and then I started crying and crying and crying...  I cried for three hours solidly he asked me to take it back and I called him it again and again... he was so very angry... He called me a selfish bitch and told me to pack my bags and get out....  The truth is I'll never feel the same about them I guess...

God I've gone off on a tangent again..  The more I talk the more I listen to you guys the more it makes absolute sense...  They like me when they can control me... when I am in charge they try to put me down.... same as my N mum.. same as every long term relationship I have had...

So if I have to be lonely then so be it..  I have a beautiful daughter.. a decent son in law... a grandchild on the way, one very good friend and you guys.....  and that's where I'm gonna start living my life

((((((((((((((((((((((((ALL OF YOU)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Spyralle xxxxxxx

[Stormchild]

Spyralle, none of this is a tangent. Everything you've said here is very very important and right on the subject.

There's so much information packed into these two posts of yours that it will take a lot of time to tease it all out. It's important, so important, there is SO much here.

Nothing for you to be embarrassed about, either, nothing for you to feel ashamed about at all, neither for telling us about it nor for what it is that you are telling us.

Just quick outlines, of what I see, others can pick up on this too I know, and you already are seeing this stuff, so here is validation.

First - there are many signs of addiction or other compulsive behavior in L and B. Much controlling in B, and much of it is destructive. Very judgmental - which is different from discerning - people who discern try to inform and educate or they keep silence; people who judge try to bully and control, and if they are silent it's because they're talking behind someone's back...

much abusiveness in B. Isolating you, making you dependent on him and L - in Spain - then pulling the rug out from under you [no transport] - demanding that YOU apologize to HIM for calling him exactly what he was behaving like. Classic abuse and gaslighting and double standards...

Spy, you have a right to innocent fun. Rollerblade your little heart out! I wish I could -- and the way you describe your friendship with the other gal, the one whose NH left her -- it started with drama and a 'rescue' but see, it moved on from there! The 'drama' was a genuine crisis! The 'rescue' was geniune help! And you're past that and into the quiet sharing part, but God willing if either of you has another period of need, the other one will be able to help. Not you always being down. Not her always being down. You can enjoy each other's company without one having to be 'up' and the other 'down'. You're meeting on the same level. That's where friendship lives!

((((((((((Spyralle)))))))))) there's so much here, don't stifle your thoughts, this is so important, you're getting all the puzzle pieces out on the table and into the light. And putting them together! And the picture they make won't be an ugly picture of you, it will be a picture of a beautiful person, you, who has had sadness in her life but is finding the way to make that better now... with a beautiful daughter, a fine son in law, and a beautiful grandchild -- and light, warm light, all around you.

A rollerblading grandma! I love that! That is wonderful, just wonderful, it makes me want to laugh and do a little wiggly happy dance, it's truly truly great.

[spyralle]

Stormy...  You made me cry so much and then laugh at the same time as I thought of you there doing your wiggly dance and that made me want to do a wiggly dance too .....  You are sooo right I had never thought of being a roller blading grandma..  How cool will that be..  Me an little D blading down the promenade in Brighton...

CB.. You are right..  i am opening my eyes and just seeing more and more..  On the way back from Spain B decided that he was going to the bar for  a drink.... me and L were left with all the cases...  On the plane he drank more..  When we got off we had to manage his bags as well as he was legless.  I looked at L and I just felt sad for her....  She is so sucked in by him and doesn't see it...

L rang me yesterday..  She had been for an interview for her own job as they had been making staff cuts but she had not been offered the job...  I sent her a concerned text because I can't imagine how awful that must be, but I know I needed to keep my distance..  You are right Stormy about judgement and control and bullying...  After ex N left B sat back and said he had always known how horrible he was and he had never liked him....  They used to get on really well actually..... but he had to be the one who had that power..  The one who had always known what would happen

I think back to when my daughter was little and we first all went out together...  L has two girls the same age as K...  We went swimming and her kids were completely isolating my daughter..  I wanted them to say something or do something they did nothing....  As the kids were growing up B used to pick on the things that K was most sensitive about and then humiliate her with them...  Just small things like she has long fingers so he would say her hands were too big etc...  As you know her partner is muslim.....  He is always very rude about that and hates the guy.... he has only met him once...  God I've just realised I really don't like B at all...

Spyralle x

[reallyME]

Hi Spy

Ok, first of all, at the risk of not sounding or seeming a bit N'istic myself, what's to "figure out" here?  These people have all the classic signs of N'ism.

When my partner died...  Her and her husband were great.  They came to collect me and took me back to their house for the night.  My friend L came with me to registars etc and they were with me for the funeral... 

Typically, narcissistic people start out with you by gift-giving, being wondrously kind, flattering you left and right, so they can dupe you into letting them "dig their hooks in"

A few months later we L and her husband and all kids decided we would go away for a break...  I found out that they had booked with out me..

 

this would be what we call RED FLAG #1

Both her and her husband always laugh hysterically at my driving and ridicule it

wondering how soon after all the gift-giving, niceness, THIS started up.  It usually seems to take them about 6, 9 mos to a couple years, to begin dropping their facade and mask.  Devaluing is all part of the Narcissistic Cycle.

 

When I arrived at their house there was no one there.  I ranng and they were both at L's mum's  I drove over there and ended up driving them both back so they could leave their cars at her mum's house where they were safe.  L's mum offered for me to leave my car there but L's husband said no we didn't have time to call a taxi.

And NOW the PUNISHING of you begins from the N people.  Sighs

In Spain we hired a car between the three of us..  I asked if husband could give me a lift to my mum's..  He said no..  In fact he ened up giving me a lift nowhere..  I got the bus there and back and not a word was said about it..

they LOVE to watch ya squirm and feel DESERTED.  I believe it's their way of turning you into who they were as a child, so they can "play parent" and do the punishing and feel the power.

L asked me to take day off and come with her to a meeting as she had taken a lot of sick time from work and was being called in..  I did..  A few weeks later I asked her to do the same as I had a hospital appointment..  She simply said No I have to work..

Yep, of course...you are supposed to be at their back and call, but when you need something, forget it...they are too busy, sick, injured, upset, etc.  That's the name of the game...ONE-SIDED

My daughter as you all know is expecting a baby.  I am so very excited about it.  I mentioned it in Spain and L's husband said...  "I hate babies"  He ridiculed people who liked them...

Narcissistic people will do ANYTHING to destroy what makes you happy, since they are so miserable deep down inside...and, oh, ENVIOUS of you too.

I rang L yesterday to see how she got on with her job interview..  She said they had had a party at the weekend.  When I asked who had been invited she said everyone..  The usual crowd..  They had not invited me...  I said nothing..

Yep, they LOVE to cause you to feel EXCLUDED from things, while they act like having not invited you, was the most reasonable and logical thing in the world...and you are supposed to just take it in stride!  UGH...Like, "well I don't see what you are so upset about...can't you just be happy for others or for me?"  SICK THINKING HERE!

They did cook me tea every week on a Thursday for a while after ex N left,  but have only been to my house twice in the past year...

 

Learn to TREASURE those moments...when they DON'T come over to see ya.

When they come to my place, If they bring their dog, my dog has to be locked out..  My dog is a big playful softie, and the two dogs love to play but theirs is not alowed in case my dog hurts her!!!!!!

Oh brother!  of course, their PRECIOUS dog might have his fur tarnished a bit! Gimmee a break!  Send them back to SPAIN, and "their little dog, Toto too!"

I am very confused though I could go on and on but for fear of boring the pants off everyone I will stop..

Please give me a clue..

You didn't bore me a bit, Spy, but you are less clueless about this than you think, by virtue of the fact that you brought it to us to help you with.  Follow what you are hearing inside. In the words of the TELETUBBIES, "Run away! Run away!"

~Laura

[spyralle]

Gosh Laura,

It makes so much sense when you pick it apart and with that comes a horrible sinking sense of loss because I am suddenly realising that I don't like my friends..  and I am talking my best friends for the past ten years....  when you said that they love to watch me squirm and feel deserted that makes so much sense.  There was someone else on holiday with us... another female friend of theirs who I get on with very well..  B kept saying that he must make sure he got her to the airport on the last day as she was on a different flight to us..  It was the total opposite of the way he was being with me...

God I really don't like them..  I am saying it after all this time and it some respects it feels quite liberating but very scary...  there have been times when I have been really really angry with them and just bit my tongue... like for eg L is always late and I mean really late usually around the two hour mark....  When we used to work together we would all be on an early shift at 7am... she would come to work at around 8 or 8.30 sometimes nine sometimes later...  everyone would just do the work and nobody said anything... neither did she..  I f we were going out she would either not turn up at all even though sometimes she knew I relly wanted to go or again would arrive a couple of hours late...  We have been friends for a long time but we very rarely do anything I used to often ring to see if she wanted to come shopping.... she never did.. Or to go out... nope...  I always go to her house..  and they come over here almost never.. apart from every boxing day

yep the red flags were there alright but as usual I looked away because I was so grateful that they were my friends...  I bought a fridge magnet which I felt depicted the way we were.  It said 'Friends are the family we choose for ourselves'......  I just didn't realise I had chosen a family modelled on my own....

Spyralle x